Jobs market for secondary school teachers?

lightspeed

Hi im considering becoming a secondary school teacher. i have a business and law degree, masters in accounting and finance and nearly qualified as an accountant.

I read that during the recession, teachers struggled to get full time work. Is that still the case?

Just recently I heard that they are talking about no longer allowing teachers to take career breaks due to a shortage of teachers.

Id be interested to hear others opinions and what subject areas are better than others to help ensure full time work?

2011abc

Best years of the job are gone( pension / sick pay / job security / strong union support etc etc .All that’s left now are the holidays and they will come for that too .Sold out to ‘captains of industry’ , ex UK quango consultants and bean counters .Jeez at least the nuns and brothers gave us a Christmas bonus however paltry ) Ex Minister of Ed now on board of private school and as for Minister Brutal ?!Did any other Mnster ever threaten a lockout / ‘removal from payroll’)Land of saints and scholars ...
Do something else !

lightspeed

Thanks, It was always my understanding that teachers had generally strong unions and overall the perks still seem decent.

Im open to correction but i understand the starting salary to be 35k and then there are quite decent holidays each year. Albeit the perks may have been better in previous years it still seems quite decent.

Id consider primary school also but my irish skills are non existent at this point and I understand Id have to start from scratch and do a whole 4 year degree. That is not a road i would like to go down.

mtoutlemonde

lightspeed wrote: »

Thanks, It was always my understanding that teachers had generally strong unions and overall the perks still seem decent.

Im open to correction but i understand the starting salary to be 35k and then there are quite decent holidays each year. Albeit the perks may have been better in previous years it still seems quite decent.

Id consider primary school also but my irish skills are non existent at this point and I understand Id have to start from scratch and do a whole 4 year degree. That is not a road i would like to go down.

One of the unions was strong until a cohort decided that an increment was more important to the detriment of the education system. And as for the other 'union', they just roll over when asked.

That 35k that the Minister and that rag of an indo quote is for a teacher who has full hours which many will not get for several years. You will start your 'career' subbing or you may get lucky and get your own hours. Also be aware that if you don't get a fixed term/RPT contract, you won't be paid for the summer. (You do receive holiday pay before the Christmas/Easter and summer holidays but you will need to budget for the rest of the summer).

With all your experience and qualifications, would you not consider lecturing? I don't know if it's easier to get in there but I would imagine it's easier than getting a 22hr RPT contract.

Sir123

lightspeed wrote: »

Thanks, It was always my understanding that teachers had generally strong unions and overall the perks still seem decent.

Im open to correction but i understand the starting salary to be 35k and then there are quite decent holidays each year. Albeit the perks may have been better in previous years it still seems quite decent.

Id consider primary school also but my irish skills are non existent at this point and I understand Id have to start from scratch and do a whole 4 year degree. That is not a road i would like to go down.

I disagree, if you're lucky enough to get full hours, it would not be as bad. Net pay for a full time employee is a little over €1000 a fortnight with little progression in early years.. don't think that salary is as appeizing as one may think after PAYE, PRSI, USC, pension & the pension levy (which you will end up paying more into over your career than you get out/career average). A disgrace.

With a lot of subjects nowadays, it's an hours game. I have two core subjects and I am not on full hours, despite the so called shortage of teachers within that area. Hard times are upon us in this profession and we are out of recession. I see a lot leaving in the next 5-10 years, myself included.

infor123

Business and Accounting are not great subjects either. They are pretty over subscribed.

2011abc

Take home for full time newly qualified teacher was four hundred and something 2/3 years ago ...or as onecolleague explained less than their sibling who worked in Dunnes .

lightspeed

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

One of the unions was strong until a cohort decided that an increment was more important to the detriment of the education system. And as for the other 'union', they just roll over when asked.

That 35k that the Minister and that rag of an indo quote is for a teacher who has full hours which many will not get for several years. You will start your 'career' subbing or you may get lucky and get your own hours. Also be aware that if you don't get a fixed term/RPT contract, you won't be paid for the summer. (You do receive holiday pay before the Christmas/Easter and summer holidays but you will need to budget for the rest of the summer).

With all your experience and qualifications, would you not consider lecturing? I don't know if it's easier to get in there but I would imagine it's easier than getting a 22hr RPT contract.

Thanks, Its not only about the paid holidays that im considering teaching but i was not aware that only those on a fixed term/rpt contract were paid over the summer period.


Yeah i can imagine the need to budget for the year if available working hours are so few.


Is the situation generally the same for primary school teachers?

Also does anyone know if you didnt get the leaving cert results required for one subject, can you just repeat that one subject ?

It infuriates me that that there is such a stringent requirement to have such a good understanding of Irish. It is such a useless language and it should not be mandatory especially at second level.

The thought of doing a course to teach english as a foreign language has also crossed my mind so I could get a feel for teaching to see how i like it.

Sir123

lightspeed wrote: »

Thanks, Its not only about the paid holidays that im considering teaching but i was not aware that only those on a fixed term/rpt contract were paid over the summer period.


Yeah i can imagine the need to budget for the year if available working hours are so few.


Is the situation generally the same for primary school teachers?

Also does anyone know if you didnt get the leaving cert results required for one subject, can you just repeat that one subject ?

It infuriates me that that there is such a stringent requirement to have such a good understanding of Irish. It is such a useless language and it should not be mandatory especially at second level.

The thought of doing a course to teach english as a foreign language has crossed also my mind so I could get a feel for teaching to see how i like it.

Again, I disagree as an Irish teacher and I hate speaking English when I have to 😊

mtoutlemonde

lightspeed wrote: »

Thanks, Its not only about the paid holidays that im considering teaching but i was not aware that only those on a fixed term/rpt contract were paid over the summer period.


Yeah i can imagine the need to budget for the year if available working hours are so few.


Is the situation generally the same for primary school teachers?

Also does anyone know if you didnt get the leaving cert results required for one subject, can you just repeat that one subject ?

It infuriates me that that there is such a stringent requirement to have such a good understanding of Irish. It is such a useless language and it should not be mandatory especially at second level.

The thought of doing a course to teach english as a foreign language has also crossed my mind so I could get a feel for teaching to see how i like it.

I don't know what happens in primary schools.

In response to the question about repeating a subject - yes you can do one subject. You have to contact a local school to oral, practical and written exams.

I definitely wouldn't call Irish a useless language. I don't speak it regularly but would like to - it's our native language. There are stringent requirements on primary school teachers as they will have to teach Irish everyday so need to have a good mastery of the language. I think Irish should be brought in line with other languages - remove the poetry, prose etc.

lightspeed

Sir123 wrote: »

Again, I disagree as an Irish teacher and I hate speaking English when I have to ��

If we made Astrology a mandatory subject im sure there would be plenty of astrology teachers who would feel the same way about it. The same argument could be made about other dormant languages.

"Irish is a main home, work or community language for approximately 1% of the population of the Republic of Ireland;[1] the population of the Republic of Ireland was shown as 4,761,865 in the 2016 census. The 2011 census in Northern Ireland showed that Irish is the home language of 0.2% of people, with 6% of people able to speak Irish to varying degrees (see Irish language in Northern Ireland)".

1% of the population of the republic of ireland speak irish for everyday use yet to become a primary school teacher you need a leaving cert H3 grade and be able to do an interview in Irish.

There is no defending such nonsense, if the majority of the population felt the same why is it mandatory to be taught in both primary and secondary levels?

Sir123

lightspeed wrote: »

If we made Astrology a mandatory subject im sure there would be plenty of astrology teachers who would feel the same way about it. The same argument could be made about other dormant languages.

"Irish is a main home, work or community language for approximately 1% of the population of the Republic of Ireland;[1] the population of the Republic of Ireland was shown as 4,761,865 in the 2016 census. The 2011 census in Northern Ireland showed that Irish is the home language of 0.2% of people, with 6% of people able to speak Irish to varying degrees (see Irish language in Northern Ireland)".

1% of the population of the republic of ireland speak irish for everyday use yet to become a primary school teacher you need a leaving cert H3 grade and be able to do an interview in Irish.

There is no defending such nonsense, if the majority of the population felt the same why is it mandatory to be taught in both primary and secondary levels?

I can defend it, and I will thank you very much. As mtoutlemonde has stated, Irish is an integral component of our culture and must be respect. A valid point is made about the copious amounts of literature on the course. That could be addressed.

However, your argument is quite narrow minded, and by reading your earlier posts, your area of expertise does not lie in languages, but that of business. Did you ever realise that not everyone likes business either. Each to their own as they say.

Now to give you some more info on your "statistics", The total number of persons (aged 3 and over) who could speak Irish in April 2016 was 1,761,420, representing 39.8 per cent of the population. (CSO 2016)

Now that does not involve being able to speak it fluently, but as you can imagine, a need and want to learn the language is extremely apparent, and evident in major cities such as Dublin through the influx of parents sending their children to Gaelscoileanna.

So don't jump the gun there because it's not appreciated. There are many people that read these posts, of all disciplines including Gaeilge. It goes both ways. As I said, each to their own.

By trying to help you, I don't see the requirement changing for primary level. However, if you really want to do it, courses for adult learners are provided in many cities. I think jobs wise, it is a bit oversupplied. But if it is something you truly want to do, I would go for it.

Beannachtaí

thefasteriwalk

There's no shortage of business teachers in secondary.

lightspeed

thefasteriwalk wrote: »

There's no shortage of business teachers in secondary.

Other thank maths and science are there any other subjects in demand?

mtoutlemonde

lightspeed wrote: »

Other thank maths and science are there any other subjects in demand?

Languages (especially Irish) and Home Economics.

evolving_doors

lightspeed wrote: »

If we made Astrology a mandatory subject im sure there would be plenty of astrology teachers who would feel the same way about it. The same argument could be made about other dormant languages.

"Irish is a main home, work or community language for approximately 1% of the population of the Republic of Ireland;[1] the population of the Republic of Ireland was shown as 4,761,865 in the 2016 census. The 2011 census in Northern Ireland showed that Irish is the home language of 0.2% of people, with 6% of people able to speak Irish to varying degrees (see Irish language in Northern Ireland)".

1% of the population of the republic of ireland speak irish for everyday use yet to become a primary school teacher you need a leaving cert H3 grade and be able to do an interview in Irish.

There is no defending such nonsense, if the majority of the population felt the same why is it mandatory to be taught in both primary and secondary levels?

Hmmm maybe we'll put primary teaching to one side for a while in your case!

Secondary.... would you be going for business subject(s) ?

lightspeed

evolving_doors wrote: »

Hmmm maybe we'll put primary teaching to one side for a while in your case!

Secondary.... would you be going for business subject(s) ?

It would probably be the likes of business and accounting that id be most suited for.

To be honest I didnt like maths in school and forgot my calculator for one of the papers so just scraped a pass.

Id consider further study in other areas if the job prospects warranted it to be worthwhile.

I from looking at jobs for second level that the majority seem to be substitute or part time.

Whats the difference between substitute and fixed employment?

I assume fixed not being permanent is only temporary for a set period of time as id assume would be the case with substitute.

How long are typical susbstitute positions?

Snapgal

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Languages (especially Irish) and Home Economics.

Not your own hours though.15 years experience and no jobs this summer in irish own hours within area I live - I have a commute of 2 hrs this year to do a job share of 11 hours ( half pay) I also have a foreign language. Respect for the profession has totally gone out the window. Too many teaching graduates came out of colleges and Hibernia course - no jobs.

mirrorwall14

Substitute work in Ireland is day to day cover for absences for a myriad of reasons. It’s seasonal and you only get paid if you work a class so you could be hanging around for the day and only work one class or you could end up working nine depending on the day. You are subject to the maximum of 22 teaching hours a week and only during the school year obviously

Part time work is different. You will generally see the job advertised for a number of hours. In most* cases if the job is advertised and filled before November you will get paid for the holidays. The rate of pay is related to the number of hours. So for example if the post is advertised for 10 hours, you need to do 10/22*35000 to find your before tax salary for the year. So 15.9k approx in this case. Divide by 12 again to get monthly. 1325 approx in this case.

Also bear in mind that you are subject to pension levy as well as pension payments and income tax on that salary.

If you are in a school on part time hours you may be able to pick up extra sub cover class periods during the year. This is how many young teachers are managing to survive.

Finally to note, the department made it mandatory for all jobs to be advertised even if there is someone in situ so bear in mind a large majority of posts, particularly towards the end of the school year at CID time may be ‘false’ posts where there is already someone teaching the position for the year and unless they are
A) crap
you have twenty years experience and glowing letters of references
You will not get the job

*maternity contracts are one where you are not paid for holidays I believe. The rate of pay includes holiday pay for the duration

maynooth_rules

However, your argument is quite narrow minded, and by reading your earlier posts, your area of expertise does not lie in languages, but that of business. Did you ever realise that not everyone likes business either. Each to their own as they say

But students are not forced to do Business for LC level. I think it will actually benefit the language to drop the compulsory element after JC.
I can only speak from my own class room experience, but most kids in my school resented being forced to do Irish for LC level and therefore 'acted up' in Irish lessons.
By junior cert level students have been doing Irish for what, some 7-8 years. If at that point they decide its not for them, then they should have every right to not do it for the Leaving Cert

2011abc

lightspeed wrote: »

If we made Astrology a mandatory subject im sure there would be plenty of astrology teachers who would feel the same way about it. The same argument could be made about other dormant languages.

I really hope that Astrology comment is ironic but I’m not sure .

gaiscioch

lightspeed wrote: »

Hi im considering becoming a secondary school teacher. i have a business and law degree, masters in accounting and finance and nearly qualified as an accountant.

I'd get qualified. As a general rule it seems wasteful (at best) to be "nearly qualified" in anything.

lightspeed

Sir123 wrote: »

I disagree, if you're lucky enough to get full hours, it would not be as bad. Net pay for a full time employee is a little over €1000 a fortnight with little progression in early years.. don't think that salary is as appeizing as one may think after PAYE, PRSI, USC, pension & the pension levy (which you will end up paying more into over your career than you get out/career average). A disgrace.

With a lot of subjects nowadays, it's an hours game. I have two core subjects and I am not on full hours, despite the so called shortage of teachers within that area. Hard times are upon us in this profession and we are out of recession. I see a lot leaving in the next 5-10 years, myself included.

It surprising to me that the market is as bad as you mention given the now booming economy.

I hear of how much the population is set to boom on nearly daily basis now on the radio so id assume the demand will be there is not already.

Is it the case that there is such an oversupply that the government powers that be dont need to ensure there are full time positions available?

As the norm with Irish politics, the government is going to be most concerned with cutting taxes and increasing pensions to buy votes. However, I assume as population increases there will be political pressure for more full time teacher positions being made available.

lightspeed

gaiscioch wrote: »

I'd get qualified. As a general rule it seems wasteful (at best) to be "nearly qualified" in anything.

Thanks I will do just that

I have just 2 more exams left to qualify and will sit one next month.

lightspeed

Snapgal wrote: »

Not your own hours though.15 years experience and no jobs this summer in irish own hours within area I live - I have a commute of 2 hrs this year to do a job share of 11 hours ( half pay) I also have a foreign language. Respect for the profession has totally gone out the window. Too many teaching graduates came out of colleges and Hibernia course - no jobs.

Hi apologies but what do you mean not your own hours and no jobs this summer?

I assume teachers usually dont be looking for work in summer given that they are paid if in permanent/fixed term roles?

Are you optimistic about securing a more permanent position in future?

If your only get 11 hours work a week and travelling 2 hours to work, Im assuming your making a loss or much less than the dole. i dont mean to be having a go but unless your assuming that will change in future, surely its not sustainable?

JaCrispy

Irish should be merged with History because that's where it resides now. It's about as culturally relevant to most Irish people as Mozarabic or Yukatec Mayan. The sooner it's removed as a mandatory subject, the better.

splinter65

Sorry to hijack a thread but my nephew got his masters in Ed from Maynooth in June 2016 and has failed to get even one hours teaching since then.
He’s in a midlands county living at home with parents and he can’t drive.
Have you guys any advice ?
Thanks
Sorry edited to add, his subjects are Geography and Religion

TheDriver

Unfortunately geography and RE are fairly poor combos and secondly being in countryside and not being able to drive is a bad sign. You'd get away with it in Dublin

spurious

Without driving, he is going to be relying on local schools. Go in, talk to the principals and stress he can be there in x minutes if called for subbing. Once they use him he will be called again.

He needs to learn to drive to have any chance at work and he needs to get some subbing hours to have any chance of getting even a few hours on a contract.

I wish they would tell them in the PME what the jobs situation actually is.

Plenty of hours to be done but no proper jobs - and they wonder why people go abroad and then they blame it on teachers on career breaks. Unbelievable.

splinter65

spurious wrote: »

Without driving, he is going to be relying on local schools. Go in, talk to the principals and stress he can be there in x minutes if called for subbing. Once they use him he will be called again.

He needs to learn to drive to have any chance at work and he needs to get some subbing hours to have any chance of getting even a few hours on a contract.

I wish they would tell them in the PME what the jobs situation actually is.

Plenty of hours to be done but no proper jobs - and they wonder why people go abroad and then they blame it on teachers on career breaks. Unbelievable.

Actually my brother , his father, was complaining bitterly about Maynooth not making sure that the students were fully up to speed on the situation.
The fact that the Masters cost €9000 too doesn’t help.
I have to say though that it was up to my nephew, and his parents, to bring themselves up to speed and in particular the driving issue, and they didn’t.
I and my other siblings stood back and said nothing of course for fear of causing a row, so we’re guilty too.
A job came up in the local CBS, he didn’t even get called for an interview.

lightspeed

splinter65 wrote: »

Actually my brother , his father, was complaining bitterly about Maynooth not making sure that the students were fully up to speed on the situation.
The fact that the Masters cost €9000 too doesn’t help.
I have to say though that it was up to my nephew, and his parents, to bring themselves up to speed and in particular the driving issue, and they didn’t.
I and my other siblings stood back and said nothing of course for fear of causing a row, so we’re guilty too.
A job came up in the local CBS, he didn’t even get called for an interview.

Do you or anyone know what his jobs prospects would be abroad?

Ive seen some articles making reference to teachers going abroad as strong demand for teachers elsewhere like Dubai etc. Would this include newly qualified with little to no post qualified experience?