Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

electrofelix

Patmwgs wrote: »

You need a three phase supply for 22kw

Based on the FAQs for the Zappi V2 I understand that you can connect the 3-phase to a 1-phase supply. This limits the initial charging power capabilities but I figured this will work nicely to allowing upgrading when it's useful for our future cars without needing to replace the charging unit as well.

Unless there is some restriction on getting 3 phase added to a domestic house that I'm unaware of? It's not something I'll be doing straight away as I don't need it yet, but I was assuming it would be relevant within 3-5 years, and hoping to get ~10 years from a charging unit.

graememk wrote: »

An eo mini pro might work for you too. I think load management is included.

I don't think any of them are lockable, unless you mean the cable locks into place? Like it does on the car end?

You could put a lock on the isolator, or just power it off at your consumer unit, and I think the zappi has a pin to use option.

I don't think the eo mini pro has the capability to be switched up to 22KW unless I've missed something? Have a higher preference for that over discrete, otherwise yes, it looks to be very neat and tidy.

Happy enough with the pin solution, it's not ideal but just as long as the unit has some ability to prevent someone else from using it. Ideally it would be nice to prevent someone from messing and unplugging it on me, but can't have everything.

Patmwgs wrote: »

The sync ev charger has an rfid card for personal use only as a setting.

That looks handy, and discrete, though looks like they don't have a 22KW version yet for home usage, unless I've missed it?

eagerv wrote: »

I would recommend a charge point that uses a delivery from the EU rather than the UK.

My recent Zappi2 problem took almost 8 weeks for the replacement to arrive from Myenergi in the UK. Talking to an installer, they have had similar problems.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind when picking a supplier/fitter. Brexit is making a lot of stuff more inconvenient.


Thanks for all the suggestions, it does seem like given my personal preference order, unless I've missed some issue about getting 3 phase power in the future, that the zappi v2 is the best option as I can have it switched to 3 phase later.

the_amazing_raisin

You don't need a 3 phase charger, a 7kW charger is almost certainly enough for you

If you charge between midnight and 7am, that's 49kWh, enough for 250-300km driving in most cars. If you need more then just start charging earlier and spend a little more

It costs several thousand to upgrade to a 3 phase supply so unless you're getting a Tesla Roadster 2 with a 200kWh battery and driving 1000km every day, you'll never need it and it'll never pay for itself

It's tempting to try and future proof, but you'll be paying extra now for something that you're almost certainly never going to need

liamog

The reality being most cars are standardising on 11kW AC chargers anyway, so in all likelihood that's an expensive what to reduce your overnight charging time by 33%.

graememk

electrofelix wrote: »

Thanks for all the suggestions, it does seem like given my personal preference order, unless I've missed some issue about getting 3 phase power in the future, that the zappi v2 is the best option as I can have it switched to 3 phase later.

Getting upgraded to three phase, would basically be a new install from ESBN

And really depends on whats in your location, Going on esbn docs a special 3 phase connection is €4,294 + MV Network Charges (for 29kva), then new consumer unit + related wiring. Also new cables into your house.

Unless your charging 3 or more ev's you wont need a three phase connection.
(Id say you could nearly get away with a 29kva single phase if needing to charge 3 ev's at once)

Also about locking it etc, if your charging in your drive way, nobody is going to rock up and start charging and leaving their car, for hours. all to save a few euro.

If you ever go 3 phase, the charge point is the least of your worries.

Kramer

electrofelix wrote: »

Happy enough with the pin solution, it's not ideal but just as long as the unit has some ability to prevent someone else from using it. Ideally it would be nice to prevent someone from messing and unplugging it on me, but can't have everything.

New installs require a big red isolator switch fitted within reach of the unit - just so you aware. It's not the most discrete looking thing & obviously anyone can easily switch off your charge. It's something to be aware of if you're particularly worried about interference with your unit or in an exposed, vandal prone area.

Maybe worth touching base with an electrician about placement, if you had concerns, but generally, I've never heard of anyone interfering with someone's home charging. There are hundreds of EV owners charging every night & we'd surely have heard by now if it was a problem for anyone.

Best of luck with it.

the_amazing_raisin

electrofelix wrote: »

Happy enough with the pin solution, it's not ideal but just as long as the unit has some ability to prevent someone else from using it. Ideally it would be nice to prevent someone from messing and unplugging it on me, but can't have everything.

What's the concern regarding people messing with the charger?

If you're concerned someone will come along and use the charger when you aren't around then don't worry, it'll never happen. To get a decent charge you'd probably need to stay there for 2 hours or more and it'd save maybe €1

If you were a thief, 2 hours of risk for €1 just isn't worth it, especially considering if you get caught you can't just drive away, you need to unplug first.

The biggest risk would be if your charger is in a public place like on street parking and someone thought it was for public use

I've heard of one incident where someone used a charger without permission and they were basically desperate for a charge and left an apology note and some money for the homeowner. The owner would likely not have found out if it weren't for the note

As for people unplugging your car, you can lock the cable into the car and only release when you allow it. So someone can't come along and rip out your cable

Probably the biggest risk would be kids pressing buttons on the charger and messing with the settings. A pin code (or a dumb charger with no buttons) easily solves this

electrofelix

Maybe I'm making a few too many assumptions on the limitations with single phase, so might have to rethink the option I'm picking and might be able to go with something else instead.

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

It's tempting to try and future proof, but you'll be paying extra now for something that you're almost certainly never going to need

I have a shed/workspace going in that the electrician has recommended a 32A circuit based on power/compression tools. Coupled with the expectation of an extension in a few years, I was thinking the car charger would bring me close enough to the limits that to do the extension I'd need to upgrade to an enhanced connection so going to 3 phase then would be just as convenient.

liamog wrote: »

The reality being most cars are standardising on 11kW AC chargers anyway, so in all likelihood that's an expensive what to reduce your overnight charging time by 33%.

That's interesting, while I understood most cars were getting 11kW chargers for now, I was thinking that we'll see quite a few more adopting the 22kW chargers about 5 years down the road.

graememk wrote: »

Getting upgraded to three phase, would basically be a new install from ESBN

And really depends on whats in your location, Going on esbn docs a special 3 phase connection is €4,294 + MV Network Charges (for 29kva), then new consumer unit + related wiring. Also new cables into your house.

Unless your charging 3 or more ev's you wont need a three phase connection.
(Id say you could nearly get away with a 29kva single phase if needing to charge 3 ev's at once)

I was assuming I would need to get at least an enhanced connection in the future (didn't see there was a 29kva single phase option), so I was thinking that going to 3 phase wouldn't be much of a jump in that case. Assuming getting enhanced is basically the same idea of being a new connection as well, which is why I was thinking I'd might as well go for 3 phase when that happens?

graememk wrote: »

Also about locking it etc, if your charging in your drive way, nobody is going to rock up and start charging and leaving their car, for hours. all to save a few euro.

I'm thinking more along the lines of children experimenting with sticking stuff in sockets, I'm sure there is some attempt to prevent this from happening, not sure that engineers foresight >> children's ingenuity. If it simply won't allow power out to the socket without a pin or key being waved over it, have piece of mind that it's even more unlikely to be an issue.

Kramer wrote: »

New installs require a big red isolator switch fitted within reach of the unit - just so you aware. It's not the most discrete looking thing & obviously anyone can easily switch off your charge. It's something to be aware of if you're particularly worried about interference with your unit or in an exposed, vandal prone area.

Thanks, good to know, looks like they are the same size as the charging sockets for the more discrete ones so will likely look like just another socket on the side of the house.

Kramer wrote: »

Maybe worth touching base with an electrician about placement, if you had concerns, but generally, I've never heard of anyone interfering with someone's home charging. There are hundreds of EV owners charging every night & we'd surely have heard by now if it was a problem for anyone.

Less theft and more safety, but yes I should probably check with my electrician as I forgot to mention about the car charger when it was over recently to see if he would know how close I'd come to needing to look at the connection with the power going to the shed.

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

What's the concern regarding people messing with the charger?

<snip>

Probably the biggest risk would be kids pressing buttons on the charger and messing with the settings. A pin code (or a dumb charger with no buttons) easily solves this

Agreed, unlikely there would be theft (rather small value), children messing with is the main concern.

Patmwgs

electrofelix wrote: »

Maybe I'm making a few too many assumptions on the limitations with single phase, so might have to rethink the option I'm picking and might be able to go with something else instead.



I have a shed/workspace going in that the electrician has recommended a 32A circuit based on power/compression tools. Coupled with the expectation of an extension in a few years, I was thinking the car charger would bring me close enough to the limits that to do the extension I'd need to upgrade to an enhanced connection so going to 3 phase then would be just as convenient.



That's interesting, while I understood most cars were getting 11kW chargers for now, I was thinking that we'll see quite a few more adopting the 22kW chargers about 5 years down the road.



I was assuming I would need to get at least an enhanced connection in the future (didn't see there was a 29kva single phase option), so I was thinking that going to 3 phase wouldn't be much of a jump in that case. Assuming getting enhanced is basically the same idea of being a new connection as well, which is why I was thinking I'd might as well go for 3 phase when that happens?



I'm thinking more along the lines of children experimenting with sticking stuff in sockets, I'm sure there is some attempt to prevent this from happening, not sure that engineers foresight >> children's ingenuity. If it simply won't allow power out to the socket without a pin or key being waved over it, have piece of mind that it's even more unlikely to be an issue.



Thanks, good to know, looks like they are the same size as the charging sockets for the more discrete ones so will likely look like just another socket on the side of the house.



Less theft and more safety, but yes I should probably check with my electrician as I forgot to mention about the car charger when it was over recently to see if he would know how close I'd come to needing to look at the connection with the power going to the shed.



Agreed, unlikely there would be theft (rather small value), children messing with is the main concern.

If you are worried about your shed supply, you could tap in to the meter box and get a charger with power management, it throttles back when other heavy appliances are on. If you get one with an card no power will go to the plug so child proof.

graememk

electrofelix wrote: »

I was assuming I would need to get at least an enhanced connection in the future (didn't see there was a 29kva single phase option), so I was thinking that going to 3 phase wouldn't be much of a jump in that case. Assuming getting enhanced is basically the same idea of being a new connection as well, which is why I was thinking I'd might as well go for 3 phase when that happens?



I'm thinking more along the lines of children experimenting with sticking stuff in sockets, I'm sure there is some attempt to prevent this from happening, not sure that engineers foresight >> children's ingenuity. If it simply won't allow power out to the socket without a pin or key being waved over it, have piece of mind that it's even more unlikely to be an issue.

It's the medium voltage network charges that would make or break it for a three phase install really. Eg for me the nearest 3 phase lines are miles away.


As for the charger itself, the plug is totally dead until it's connected and locked and the car requests the power, then the contactor goes ka-chunk and only at that point there is power flowing, as soon as it's disconnected the power is cut. Also the pins are very recessed into the sockets/plugs,

electrofelix

Patmwgs wrote: »

If you are worried about your shed supply, you could tap in to the meter box and get a charger with power management, it throttles back when other heavy appliances are on. If you get one with an card no power will go to the plug so child proof.

The load balancing feature is definitely on the must have list.

Actually I just remembered that I've previously blown an LED bulb in my office, most likely due to unstable power. Could just be using the wrong circuit, definitely need to have a chat with the electrician to check what the peak/average power consumption is right now as when the shed is hooked up I'll likely want to add a vacuum system to keep the amount of dust down when cutting/sanding.

Having the car charger have load balancing isn't much good if I'm tripping fuses on a regular basis due to the rest of the appliances being capable of overloading.

electrofelix

graememk wrote: »

It's the medium voltage network charges that would make or break it for a three phase install really. Eg for me the nearest 3 phase lines are miles away.

For me it's less than 300m or less than 100m depending on which one they would have to run the wiring from based on https://www.esbnetworks.ie/new-connections/generator-connections/network-capacity-map

graememk wrote: »

As for the charger itself, the plug is totally dead until it's connected and locked and the car requests the power, then the contactor goes ka-chunk and only at that point there is power flowing, as soon as it's disconnected the power is cut. Also the pins are very recessed into the sockets/plugs,

Thanks I'll keep that in mind. As it turns out between the eo mini pro and the sync ev, the latter of which has locking, the app appears to be sufficiently poor for the eo mini pro2 based on reviews that I'd go for the sync ev over it, which does have an rfid based lock.

electrofelix

So I think the final list of options I have is:

* Zappi V2 - if it looks like I'll need to upgrade the house supply this seems like it will be more beneficial in the future
* Sync EV + load balancing option - if it looks like no supply upgrade needed, this may be the best alternative for me to the zappi

Looking at the app reviews, I'm discounting the eo mini pro as an option. Seems like it's relatively poor. The Sync EV doesn't have many reviews on android, but appears to be rated slightly better than the myenergi though with less reviewers on apple, so possibly about the same.

I possibly need to try and find out a bit more about the Sync EV app, as even if there is no point to consider a supply upgrade for other reasons, the app for the Zappi models suggests that it might just be more convenient.

WayneEnterprise

electrofelix wrote: »

So I think the final list of options I have is:

* Zappi V2 - if it looks like I'll need to upgrade the house supply this seems like it will be more beneficial in the future
* Sync EV + load balancing option - if it looks like no supply upgrade needed, this may be the best alternative for me to the zappi

Looking at the app reviews, I'm discounting the eo mini pro as an option. Seems like it's relatively poor. The Sync EV doesn't have many reviews on android, but appears to be rated slightly better than the myenergi though with less reviewers on apple, so possibly about the same.

I possibly need to try and find out a bit more about the Sync EV app, as even if there is no point to consider a supply upgrade for other reasons, the app for the Zappi models suggests that it might just be more convenient.

The Mini Pro 2 has a brand new app which is separate to the previous Pros.

EO apparently outsourced the app to a third party originally but have now brought development in house with the Pro 2. I have the Pro 2 and the app is perfect with no issues.

electrofelix

WayneEnterprise wrote: »

The Mini Pro 2 has a brand new app which is separate to the previous Pros.

EO apparently outsourced the app to a third party originally but have now brought development in house with the Pro 2. I have the Pro 2 and the app is perfect with no issues.

This app -> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.eocharging.eoAppHome&hl=en_IE&gl=GB&showAllReviews=true

Does the scheduled charging work, as there is a few reviews there indicating there are issues with getting it to work, settings not saving correctly?

No reviews on the apple app store https://apps.apple.com/us/app/eo-smart-home/id1471103159

The sync ev is a bit lacking on reviews, but the zappi certainly has enough to suggest it's ahead of both of them?

Patmwgs

electrofelix wrote: »

This app -> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.eocharging.eoAppHome&hl=en_IE&gl=GB&showAllReviews=true

Does the scheduled charging work, as there is a few reviews there indicating there are issues with getting it to work, settings not saving correctly?



No reviews on the apple app store https://apps.apple.com/us/app/eo-smart-home/id1471103159

The sync ev is a bit lacking on reviews, but the zappi certainly has enough to suggest it's ahead of both of them?

Some zappi users in the uk are having problems with timed charging and solar charging not working with the id3

Felexicon

electrofelix wrote: »

This app -> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.eocharging.eoAppHome&hl=en_IE&gl=GB&showAllReviews=true

Does the scheduled charging work, as there is a few reviews there indicating there are issues with getting it to work, settings not saving correctly?

No reviews on the apple app store https://apps.apple.com/us/app/eo-smart-home/id1471103159

The sync ev is a bit lacking on reviews, but the zappi certainly has enough to suggest it's ahead of both of them?

You should take a look at the Wallbox Pulsar Plus too.

Load balancing
Has app with the ability to lock charger
Wifi enabled

Or if unthetered is what you really want the Wallbox Copper SB is a lovely looking charger with all the features of the Pulsar Plus

Cyrus

electrofelix wrote: »

So I think the final list of options I have is:

* Zappi V2 - if it looks like I'll need to upgrade the house supply this seems like it will be more beneficial in the future
* Sync EV + load balancing option - if it looks like no supply upgrade needed, this may be the best alternative for me to the zappi

Looking at the app reviews, I'm discounting the eo mini pro as an option. Seems like it's relatively poor. The Sync EV doesn't have many reviews on android, but appears to be rated slightly better than the myenergi though with less reviewers on apple, so possibly about the same.

I possibly need to try and find out a bit more about the Sync EV app, as even if there is no point to consider a supply upgrade for other reasons, the app for the Zappi models suggests that it might just be more convenient.

What are you looking for from an app ? There isn't much to it

electrofelix

Patmwgs wrote:

Some zappi users in the uk are having problems with timed charging and solar charging not working with the id3

Fun, why is it never simple. Hopefully someone has it and can share.

Felexicon wrote:

Or if unthetered is what you really want the Wallbox Copper SB is a lovely looking charger with all the features of the Pulsar Plus

That does look very nice, and appears to cover all the bases as well as being smaller than the zappi. Will look into the app.

Cyrus wrote:

What are you looking for from an app ? There isn't much to it

Generally just want the scheduler to work, some costing based on usage and rates. Little bit surprised to have seen comments about the time scheduling not working. As that seems fairly core. Hence my thinking they might not all that good.

I guess one important question is how well do any of these smart capabilities work if the company supplying fails? Not clear how much depends on the cloud vs local smarts

Felexicon

electrofelix wrote: »

Fun, why is it never simple. Hopefully someone has it and can share.



That does look very nice, and appears to cover all the bases as well as being smaller than the zappi. Will look into the app.



Generally just want the scheduler to work, some costing based on usage and rates. Little bit surprised to have seen comments about the time scheduling not working. As that seems fairly core. Hence my thinking they might not all that good.

I guess one important question is how well do any of these smart capabilities work if the company supplying fails? Not clear how much depends on the cloud vs local smarts

There is also an online portal with Wallbox if you are looking to track usage and costs. Makes it easier to view than through the app.

KCross

electrofelix wrote: »

I'm looking to get an EV charger for my plugin hybrid. My current car can support max of 3.7KW charging, however I'd rather get one of the models that support 22KW so that there is no need to worry about replacing the charge point for the next car.

Given the following list of features (order of priority):
* Capable up to 22KW
* Load balancing
* Can support using solar PV
* Lockable socket
* Discrete
* Un-tethered (can you really have a discrete tethered???)

Currently it looks like I'm having to sacrifice a bit on the discrete and go with the zappi v2: https://ecarinfra.ie/collections/ev-at-home/products/zappi-v2-solar-connected

Am I missing any alternatives that would meet the above list of features in order of priority?

electrofelix wrote: »

Maybe I'm making a few too many assumptions on the limitations with single phase, so might have to rethink the option I'm picking and might be able to go with something else instead.

+1 on this. I think you are over complicating it.


Unless you are doing crazy miles you wont need 22kW even if the car can take it and even if you have a charge point to deliver it. It isnt a case of go as high as you can to future proof it.

The decision you need to make there is around how likely you are to get 3-phase in the future. Nothing you have described would suggest you need 3-phase but only your electrician and your wallet can really answer that.

Bear in mind its not just the connection charges from the ESB, there is also the electrician charges for (re)wiring your consumer unit for 3-phase. It wont be cheap so you would need a really good reason to retrospectively install 3-ph in this country. Even then, 11kW would be fine for home charging. If you stick with 1ph then obviously 7kW is what you need.

You can still buy a 22kW capable car if that becomes the norm and you will utilise the 22kW when using public chargers and 11kW at home.

electrofelix wrote: »

I was assuming I would need to get at least an enhanced connection in the future (didn't see there was a 29kva single phase option), so I was thinking that going to 3 phase wouldn't be much of a jump in that case. Assuming getting enhanced is basically the same idea of being a new connection as well, which is why I was thinking I'd might as well go for 3 phase when that happens?

electrofelix wrote: »

I have a shed/workspace going in that the electrician has recommended a 32A circuit based on power/compression tools. Coupled with the expectation of an extension in a few years, I was thinking the car charger would bring me close enough to the limits that to do the extension I'd need to upgrade to an enhanced connection so going to 3 phase then would be just as convenient.

No, it wouldnt.

Big difference between getting the "enhanced supply" to a "3-phase supply" from a financial and electrical perspective. The enhanced supply is just taking you up to 16kVA from 12kVA (standard). You can go higher again and stay on single phase if you really need to.

An enhanced supply is a higher rated fuse in the meter box and you have to upgrade the "tails" from the meter to your consumer unit (basically a thicker cable). You may have to upgrade the consumer unit too if it is too old. Getting 3ph in is alot more complicated.

However, the shed/workspace you have described doesnt sound like it warrants 3-phase. 3-ph would be better, of course, for compressors but 32A supply to a shed isnt that big a deal for 1ph and I presume you would not be running those items during the night when the car is charging and with a load sensing charge point like the Zappi it wouldnt matter anyway as it would ramp up/down as the machinery comes on/off. Thats the whole point of getting a load sensing charge point.

electrofelix wrote: »

That's interesting, while I understood most cars were getting 11kW chargers for now, I was thinking that we'll see quite a few more adopting the 22kW chargers about 5 years down the road.

Possibly but you still dont need it at home. Do you care if your car finished charging at 3am instead of 6am?.... thats the primary benefit to you really.

If you think you will pay the piper and get 3ph in, then get a 3ph charger but other than that just get a charge point that provides 7kW and it will do you fine.

Worst case scenario is that you sell it on later and get a higher powered one then. Paying up front for something that you are very unlikely to utilise is the wrong direction, imo.

electrofelix wrote: »

I'm thinking more along the lines of children experimenting with sticking stuff in sockets, I'm sure there is some attempt to prevent this from happening, not sure that engineers foresight >> children's ingenuity. If it simply won't allow power out to the socket without a pin or key being waved over it, have piece of mind that it's even more unlikely to be an issue.

No issues there. Its been thought of and designed into every charge point. They are not live until it is plugged into a car and the car "asks" for the power.

You dont need the lockable feature if you have a private driveway.

electrofelix wrote: »

Actually I just remembered that I've previously blown an LED bulb in my office, most likely due to unstable power. Could just be using the wrong circuit, definitely need to have a chat with the electrician to check what the peak/average power consumption is right now as when the shed is hooked up I'll likely want to add a vacuum system to keep the amount of dust down when cutting/sanding.

Again, is any of that gear going to be running at 1am in the morning when the car is charging? Even if it is, it doesnt matter as the charge point will ramp down to counteract the extra load. If you are close to the max already when the car wants to charge it simply wont start the charge session.

electrofelix wrote: »

Having the car charger have load balancing isn't much good if I'm tripping fuses on a regular basis due to the rest of the appliances being capable of overloading.

All the more reason to have it actually. You absolutely want the charge point to sense those high loads so that it doesnt become the extra load that causes the fuse to blow.

If you are close to the max already then you need the enhanced supply (16kVA) or maybe the 20kVA if your electrician works it out that you need it.

electrofelix wrote: »

Fun, why is it never simple. Hopefully someone has it and can share.

Its not a Zappi fault. Its a fault on the car side.



One of your requirements above is Solar integration. Do you have Solar already or is that another future proof idea?

There are a few things to consider there. 3-ph does have an added benefit of being able to export more excess than single phase (11kW vs 6kW).

The Zappi is the better known charge point for load sensing and Solar integration. Its hard to see passed it if you are serious about Solar, 3ph, app support and decent load management by default.

Patmwgs

You dont need a three phase supply to run a few machines in a workshop. I have been using a 3 phase rotary converter for about 20 years running a two motor large panelling saw and a 3 phase industrial extractor with out any problems. Im not sure but you may even be able to use it for a three phase charger should you need to.

Cyrus

electrofelix wrote: »

Fun, why is it never simple. Hopefully someone has it and can share.



That does look very nice, and appears to cover all the bases as well as being smaller than the zappi. Will look into the app.



Generally just want the scheduler to work, some costing based on usage and rates. Little bit surprised to have seen comments about the time scheduling not working. As that seems fairly core. Hence my thinking they might not all that good.

I guess one important question is how well do any of these smart capabilities work if the company supplying fails? Not clear how much depends on the cloud vs local smarts

Scheduler works fine on eo, you can't legislate for user error .

the_amazing_raisin

I'd wonder about what you're using in the shed which requires 3 phase, unless you've a piece of equipment which will only run on 3 phase then you can get away with just upgrading your single phase supply

Also, you'll likely be charging the car at night time to take advantage of cheaper electricity, so as long as you avoid any midnight welding or carpentry then you're probably safe

If you have a charger with load balancing then the issue is mooted, the charger will reduce power down to zero if needed to prevent the house supply from being overloaded

The Zappi should cover everything you need. The issue with the ID.3 is specific to that car and is because VW have a deep sleep mode which the Zappi sometimes can't wake it up from, it hasn't been reported on any other cars AFAIK

electrofelix

tl;dr - 3-ph + 22kW req getting dropped unless the electrician indicates I will definitely need at least 20kVA special connection. If 16kVA is enough to cover our future reqs regarding a extension in a few years, then it's just not worth it as has been patiently explained to me a few times now.

KCross wrote: »

The decision you need to make there is around how likely you are to get 3-phase in the future. Nothing you have described would suggest you need 3-phase but only your electrician and your wallet can really answer that.

Bear in mind its not just the connection charges from the ESB, there is also the electrician charges for (re)wiring your consumer unit for 3-phase. It wont be cheap so you would need a really good reason to retrospectively install 3-ph in this country. Even then, 11kW would be fine for home charging. If you stick with 1ph then obviously 7kW is what you need.

Thanks, going to try and at least confirm about whether an enhanced or special connection would be needed based on some of the existing electrical flickers we've seen as well as the occasional trip. Based on all the feedback I've received so far, unless definitely will need a 20kVA in the future, at which point maybe it's a tighter decision, 3-ph isn't going to be worth considering. So I think can scrub 22kW capable from list of requirements.

KCross wrote: »

No, it wouldnt.

Big difference between getting the "enhanced supply" to a "3-phase supply" from a financial and electrical perspective. The enhanced supply is just taking you up to 16kVA from 12kVA (standard). You can go higher again and stay on single phase if you really need to.

An enhanced supply is a higher rated fuse in the meter box and you have to upgrade the "tails" from the meter to your consumer unit (basically a thicker cable). You may have to upgrade the consumer unit too if it is too old. Getting 3ph in is alot more complicated.

However, the shed/workspace you have described doesnt sound like it warrants 3-phase. 3-ph would be better, of course, for compressors but 32A supply to a shed isnt that big a deal for 1ph and I presume you would not be running those items during the night when the car is charging and with a load sensing charge point like the Zappi it wouldnt matter anyway as it would ramp up/down as the machinery comes on/off. Thats the whole point of getting a load sensing charge point.

I have to admit, despite reading the ESB doc on charges a few times, I did not read it properly and missed the details around special single phase. So yes, definitely looks much cheaper assuming just would need 16kVA than 3-phase. Maybe if 20kVA was going to be needed it requires a bit more checking on the costs.

It turns out the same electrician who will be hooking up my shed fits car chargers, so basically as he's done previous work on the house around water pressure pumps, electric shower, heating system upgrades, etc, he has a good idea on what is in the house and is just going to check what the usage is currently and then based on that and the plans around the shed, car charger, solar, and possible extension, he'll be able to explain where we are and how much additional ceiling would be useful.

KCross wrote: »

Possibly but you still dont need it at home. Do you care if your car finished charging at 3am instead of 6am?.... thats the primary benefit to you really.

If you think you will pay the piper and get 3ph in, then get a 3ph charger but other than that just get a charge point that provides 7kW and it will do you fine.

Worst case scenario is that you sell it on later and get a higher powered one then. Paying up front for something that you are very unlikely to utilise is the wrong direction, imo.

I was thinking more for convenience, if we forget or there is an issue with charging overnight, being able to charge quickly would be useful, but I get the point, can probably charge enough to do a couple of km and plug it in to a higher power one elsewhere.

KCross wrote: »

No issues there. Its been thought of and designed into every charge point. They are not live until it is plugged into a car and the car "asks" for the power.

You dont need the lockable feature if you have a private driveway.

Thanks, it wasn't entirely clear from reading the product descriptions.

KCross wrote: »

Again, is any of that gear going to be running at 1am in the morning when the car is charging? Even if it is, it doesnt matter as the charge point will ramp down to counteract the extra load. If you are close to the max already when the car wants to charge it simply wont start the charge session.

All the more reason to have it actually. You absolutely want the charge point to sense those high loads so that it doesnt become the extra load that causes the fuse to blow.

If you are close to the max already then you need the enhanced supply (16kVA) or maybe the 20kVA if your electrician works it out that you need it.

It's more if I'm running into issues with power consumption excluding the car charger, if I was going to need 3-phase for the extra power in the future figured might as well aim to be able to benefit from it. But it's pretty clear I should check what we're actually using right now before making any plans around future proofing on 3-ph for any charger.

KCross wrote: »

Its not a Zappi fault. Its a fault on the car side.

That's good to know.

KCross wrote: »

One of your requirements above is Solar integration. Do you have Solar already or is that another future proof idea?

There are a few things to consider there. 3-ph does have an added benefit of being able to export more excess than single phase (11kW vs 6kW).

The Zappi is the better known charge point for load sensing and Solar integration. Its hard to see passed it if you are serious about Solar, 3ph, app support and decent load management by default.

The solar is coming, I don't know if it'll definitely be next year, or have to wait until the following, more a case of timing.

I wasn't thinking about the 3-ph exporting more power. I have a feeling that the max I was expecting to produce would have been 4-5kW, so taking in the feedback, not enough for 3-ph to be of any benefit.

Actually looking at some of the set ups recently as well to understand if 3-ph would cause any issues here and I got the impression that it complicates use of battery storage for solar installations so it would likely impose some limitations there. So yes, I'm slowly backing away from the 3-ph.

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

I'd wonder about what you're using in the shed which requires 3 phase, unless you've a piece of equipment which will only run on 3 phase then you can get away with just upgrading your single phase supply

It was more that I was thinking that our max power draw would be high enough that would end up needing to upgrade, however I definitely read the cost doc wrong so the different between the options are definitely prohibitive unless sure that I'll need it.

I'd guess that heaters, compressors, vacuum, and a table or mitre saw running at the same time would probably be the extent in the shed. Maybe our couple of electrical gremlins are just bad choices on how some lighting is wired on to the wrong circuit as something else thus causing the LEDs to blow in one of the rooms rather than loading the supply overall at certain times.

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

Also, you'll likely be charging the car at night time to take advantage of cheaper electricity, so as long as you avoid any midnight welding or carpentry then you're probably safe

If you have a charger with load balancing then the issue is mooted, the charger will reduce power down to zero if needed to prevent the house supply from being overloaded

Understood, the 3-ph was about taking advantage of the higher power based on the assumption I would need to upgrade the supply even if not getting the car charger, making it potentially worth considering. However based on the feedback here, as he's doing both the shed and will be doing the car charger now, he's going to check the current power usage to see if any upgrade is needed and unless it needs a special connection it's off the table from what I've learned.

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

The Zappi should cover everything you need. The issue with the ID.3 is specific to that car and is because VW have a deep sleep mode which the Zappi sometimes can't wake it up from, it hasn't been reported on any other cars AFAIK

Indeed, I'm giving the list of the 4 options to the electrician to see if he's got any experience with those particular ones. I did uncover one thing that might make the sync ev and zappi v2 slightly more attractive than the eo mini pro2 and wallbox copper sb. The former two don't require separate earth rod or additional device. should reduce the fitting cost for both of those. The eo mini pro2 appears to recommend a Garo earthing device. The wallbox cobber sb mentions requiring an earthing rod, not sure if that is inter-changeable with the garo earthing device, but definitely a bit extra cost.

the_amazing_raisin

I'd consider getting an energy monitor like below

https://openenergymonitor.org/

You can take a look at the power consumption of your house and hopefully get an idea of what it pushing you towards the limit of your current connection

It sounds a bit like you might have a fault in your wiring, an LED bulb really shouldn't be pushing you over the limit, they typically only draw a few watts anyway

electrofelix

the_amazing_raisin wrote:

It sounds a bit like you might have a fault in your wiring, an LED bulb really shouldn't be pushing you over the limit, they typically only draw a few watts anyway

They are however sensitive if there is something drawing a high load going on and off whens it on, and it was often on most of the day

graememk

electrofelix wrote: »

They are however sensitive if there is something drawing a high load going on and off whens it on, and it was often on most of the day

Should look to getting a surge protection device (SPD) fitted in your consumer unit,

It's similar idea to the surge protection in the extension lead, but it's replaceable and covers the whole installation.

electrofelix

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

I'd consider getting an energy monitor like below

https://openenergymonitor.org/

You can take a look at the power consumption of your house and hopefully get an idea of what it pushing you towards the limit of your current connection

That definitely looks interesting, also interesting to see the open source for the car charger, shame it's a power interlock based approach instead of load balancing, as otherwise it might tempt me away from some of the other solutions.

It appears at least some of the car charges with the dynamic load balancing have this built in since they are monitoring the load placed on the supply, so it comes bundled. If we end up selecting one that doesn't expose this info, I'll probably consider picking one up.

baby fish

Some questions about charging, haven't really looked into this so just starting here:

1.Any features that need to get/avoid or are all chargers more or less the same?
2. Anything to future proof the installation?
3. Any suggestion of chargers to get/avoid
4. Can the charger location be any distance from the fuse board as long as a suitable cable is supplying the charger?
5. Sometime in future when we have 2 EV , is it just add another charger box with its own supply from fuseboard? Will having a 2nd EV reduce charge rate if both are charging at same time?

the_amazing_raisin

baby fish wrote: »

Some questions about charging, haven't really looked into this so just starting here:

1.Any features that need to get/avoid or are all chargers more or less the same?
2. Anything to future proof the installation?
3. Any suggestion of chargers to get/avoid
4. Can the charger location be any distance from the fuse board as long as a suitable cable is supplying the charger?
5. Sometime in future when we have 2 EV , is it just add another charger box with its own supply from fuseboard? Will having a 2nd EV reduce charge rate if both are charging at same time?

Here's my take

1. Consider a charger with load balancing if you have some heavy consumers of electricity in your house (heat pump, electric shower)
2. Cable for a 32Amp (7kW) charger even if you're only getting a 3kW one. Swapping a charger later is much easier than running a new cable. Some people suggest running cat-6 cabling to your charger, I wouldn't say I see the point
3. Zappi, EO Mini and Wallbox tend to get good reviews
4. I guess there is a technical limit where the current drop is too high, but unless you're talking hundereds of metres you should be fine. I've about 15m of cable from my charger to fuse box and no issues
5. You'll definitely need load balancing in this case, 2 EVs charging at 7kW will put you right at the limit for the enhanced ESB connection (16kVA).

The Zappi has the ability to run 2 chargers from a single connection, you can wire them back to the same cable as your original charger. You'll need to configure a group limit and the chargers will ensure they stay under this limit.

The 2 Zappis can be configured to prioritise 1 charger over another, or to share the available power