Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

ted1 · 07-09-2022 2:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119584152#Comment_119584152

So you are not getting your tails upgraded ?

are you a sparks? Why not upgrade the tails yourself? It’ll only cost €160 for ESBN to do their part?

...Ghost... · 07-09-2022 2:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119584467#Comment_119584467

I already have a charge point installed, so I am simply removing and replacing with the hypervolt. It’s a glorified socket at the end of the day. I’m an engineer and work with electrics daily.

regarding the tails….I do want to upgrade but it’s not necessary right now. It’s an immediate extra cost I would rather delay for a couple of months. There’s more to it than just the ESBN cost. Tails to consumer unit needs doing too. The load is remaining the same, so it’s all good.

ted1 · 07-09-2022 4:42pm

I’m an engineer too who works with electricity daily. So release the importance fir correct protection and ratings.

I assume that the hupervolt has load balancing. 10sq is rated for 65 Amps. So about 15kw.

once you add a car, kettle and hob you are nearing that.

not sure if you have a electric shower or any other heavy load.

Metalpanic · 07-09-2022 5:54pm

Just got a quote for an untethered Zappi v2.1 install in a house pre-wired for a charge point. €1399 (€50 extra to go tethered). Sound a bit expensive given majority of wiring is already in place?

...Ghost... · 07-09-2022 6:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119585401#Comment_119585401

I have an electric shower on a priority switch with the existing charge point. The existing charge point is also a 7kW unit and I have had and used it for 5 years. If anything, I am replacing the existing charge point with a much safer unit....not that the existing one is dangerous. The prices most electricians are charging for installation (especially for houses with existing installs) is daylight robbery.

I'd have paid up to €1000 for supply and installation for convenience sake. A typical unit costs the electrician ~€500 - €550. Fitting in the same location as a pre-wired charger and can be done inside of an hour. I'm aware they have overheads and travel time can't be excluded, but charging €1200 - €1400 for such installs is some markup for what is essentially no more complicated than an outdoor socket. They wouldn't be charging these rates if there was no grant. The grant needs to go.

ted1 · 07-09-2022 9:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119585851#Comment_119585851

Have you tried an regular domestic electrician who charges by the hour ?

alfa_aficionado · 07-09-2022 9:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119585785#Comment_119585785

Does that include the Zappi?

Metalpanic · 07-09-2022 9:54pm

Yes it does. I think it’s a relatively straight forward install, but was just wondering if it’s in the right ballpark price wise. I know I can order the Zappi for €999 plus about €20 for delivery myself.

Felexicon · 07-09-2022 10:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119585851#Comment_119585851

Wow!

How dare the electrician follow Safe Electrics guidelines for EV charger installs and inconvenience you. I'm sure you'd accept all responsibility in the event of a fault causing fire.

...Ghost... · 07-09-2022 10:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119587447#Comment_119587447

What are you waffling on about? If it was safe enough to install on 10^2 tails less than 5 years ago, it's safe enough now to replace the existing unit with a newer one. There is no need to upgrade the tails at this time. Or do you think €800-1000 for an hours work changing out a glorified socket is fair game?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119587080#Comment_119587080

When I am having the tails upgraded (prior to solar being done) I will go down that route. As of now, it seems there is a free for all on any charger installs, including from a few who don't have it advertised on their site. They always ask about the grant before quoting.

17larsson · 08-09-2022 12:10am

Did you get a certificate for the charger that was installed previously? Because no new circuits can be added to an existing installation without the tails being upgraded to 16sq and earthing upgraded also if needed.

It was against regulations to install that and leave the tails at 10sq

ECO_Mental · 08-09-2022 10:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119585785#Comment_119585785

I had all the wiring done for the EV charger on my new build even, had an isolator on the external wall and all cables including Cat6 brought back to the main board and it cost me €1350 (tethered) a couple of months ago.

There still is a bit of fiddling around including testing and then issuing test certs they submit stuff to SEAI as well etc so that price seems about right...

Metalpanic · 08-09-2022 11:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588745#Comment_119588745

Thanks @ECO_Mental that's good to know. I'm waiting on a couple of other companies to come back to me. Hopefully I can get it closer to your quote than mine. €100 in my pocket covers a good few charges!

slave1 · 08-09-2022 11:18am

I swapped my Podpoint dumb charge point for a Zappi (during PV install) but got the electrician to do it because even though I consider myself competent to do the swap I do not have the necessary equipment to carry out the safety testing.

ted1 · 09-09-2022 12:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119588745#Comment_119588745

No it’s a piss take. It’s a hours work and 1 hour travelling with less than €100 worth of parts

Zurbaran · 09-09-2022 2:42am

Mine is getting installed tomorrow 1250 all in before then grant. Should have went with a load balancing one but I’ll survive.

alfa_aficionado · 09-09-2022 9:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119587207#Comment_119587207

Seems pretty reasonable then, if you count the cost of the Zappi at €999. (presumably this isn't eligible for the grant, as seems quite a cheap quote if it also counts that)

Metalpanic · 09-09-2022 9:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119593998#Comment_119593998

No it is eligible for the grant. I mean it's a pretty straight forward job as far as installs go. I'm not an expert but from what I have been told the Zappi is the easiest charger to install. Wiring is already in place so they just need to install a rotary isolator, RCD, CT clamp and hang the unit itself. Obviously they have to test and certify afterwards too!

ECO_Mental · 09-09-2022 11:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119593455#Comment_119593455

That's your opinion.... but for me paying a highly skilled and qualified electrician €350 to install a piece of equipment that outputs 7.4kw on an external wall that is open to the elements that enables me to safely charge my car seems reasonable. To undertake all the paperwork, testing, certificates and submit these to the relevant authorities I think its ok.

ted1 · 09-09-2022 12:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119594645#Comment_119594645

dress it ip all you want and dramatise it as much as possible. But it’s still over priced.

highly skilled and qualified electrician = just an electrician, hourly rate = €25 a hour at union rates or about €60 for domestic sparks

piece of equipment that output 7.5kw on an external wall = a certified ip charge point that connects to the wall with 3-4 screws and has 3 cables to terminate

paperwork, testing and certification= not much testing required =A multimeter and about 2 minutes to do the test, paperwork and certify = 5 minutes

...Ghost... · 09-09-2022 12:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119594887#Comment_119594887

That’s where I’m coming from. It’s highly bloating the prices and people are paying it because of the grant, or because they have no choice. I refuse to be ripped off when I can safely do the install myself, as the wiring is already in place. I’d prefer to fit an isolation switch, but that would be a modification and I will avoid that. When the tails are getting done, I’ll ask the sparks to fit one.

UID0 · 09-09-2022 1:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119595090#Comment_119595090

IIRC you're moving from a Leaf 24. Was that a 3.3kW or 6.6kW model, because if it wasn't the 6.6, then you were only drawing 16A and will now be drawing 32A.

If you're getting the tails upgraded for solar, why not do that now and get the electrician to swap the charge points? As an aside, 1, how much solar are you planning on and 2, when are you planning on installing. I've seen people get quotes for solar and being told next Jan/Feb for installation.

If you get a REC to change the charge points, they may not be able to certify the installation without upgrading the tails. Since 1st August, all installations have to be certified to the 2020 standards.

On prices, you have to remember that €350 includes VAT, so is only a little over €300. To do a proper job, the electrician will be there about 2 hours, and they have to pay for their van, all their business expenses (accountant, RECI registration, insurance, etc.) as well as whatever parts are required on site, tools, certification of their testing equipment, etc. €350 is possibly a little high, but not by much.

What's bloating the prices isn't the grant, it's availability. We have a capitalist economy, which creates the imperative for companies to charge as much as the market will carry. If the price is too high, people won't pay. If they're charging that, it's because that's the point at which they maximise their income for the amount of time they're willing to work.

ECO_Mental · 09-09-2022 2:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119594887#Comment_119594887

I wasn't going to reply, but a surgeon makes amputating a leg look easy as well, theres nothin' to it! a cut here, saw the bone there and stitch him up boom jobs a gud un!

Electricians go through 4 years of training and college and are constantly updating their skills as new equipment and standards are released. They have to buy all their own tools and testing equipment etc etc Just to say its striping a few wires, a couple of screws and give it a touch of the auld multimeter is not what happens.

Here's 50 quid for your troubles and be glad you got it...you are only an auld sparky

ted1 · 09-09-2022 2:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119595462#Comment_119595462

More dramatics.

The tools are reused many times over. They aren’t buying new ones each time.

I often have teams of electricians working for me.

many of the lads doing installs are charging a premium. A regular domestic sparks will charge much less than someone who specialises in doing work with SEAI grants

...Ghost... · 09-09-2022 3:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119595299#Comment_119595299

I have a 6.6OBC Leaf. Sold the 3.3 one to replace with the M3. So there is no difference in the load as mentioned previously.

Solar I will look at for maybe next year. Cobbling the deposit together for the M3 within a few days has left the account a bit empty 🫢 so if I can put off expenses for a couple of months, that’s what works for me. Solar is only entering my mind, so no dates set for that.

Not sure about the €350 you mentioned. Figures aren’t exact but a sparks will pay ~€500 for a decent CP like the Hypervolt or Wallbox etc depending on qty ordered from supplier. €100 on other materials is about right. A supply and installation of a CP is up to 4 hours including travel time. So easily 2 done per day. If the electrician is charging €1400 per job, that’s €800 after materials or €750 after other overheads. That’s €1500 a day or 7.5k per week on such installs. Not bad. I’m allowing for €100 per day overheads which seems more than enough.

If the grant wasn’t there, people wouldn’t be paying what is being charged. When the free ESB car charger was being installed for new EVs, do you think the electrician was getting anywhere near €750 per install? Grants ALWAYS inflate prices with the service provider simply adding the grant to their fee.

I might be pushing a little hard on this issue, but I hate seeing a cash grab like this for what is one of the easier jobs on an electricians list.

UID0 · 09-09-2022 3:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119595761#Comment_119595761

Not sure about the €350 you mentioned

Someone earlier had a Zappi installed for €1400. The Zappi costs about €1050, which gives €350 for installation. This gives them, with your prices for materials and overheads about €400 a day or €2k per week. There are some taking the piss and charging €2k+ for a basic install or even €1400 for an install with a €600 charge point.

...Ghost... · 09-09-2022 6:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119595863#Comment_119595863

Zappi can be bought by the public for €800 and a couple hundred less to trades when buying in bulk (as they often do.....this is why the SEAI extended the dumb charger deadline to the end of the year). The figures I gave still stack up pretty well there.

But of course I am sure there are some not completely ripping the p1ss out of customers.....I just haven't found any not making easy money. Same with Solar, but that's a whole other thread.