Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

TheChizler

My mother is the same now with a Kona arriving in January. I've started reading this thread from the start but if anyone has any tips as to what's suitable. Ideally single phase 32 A tethered type 2 and pole mounted (I'm sure we could build some sort of plinth if it had to be wall mounted). Have asked for a quote for Zappi from myenergi, there's no PV but I like the load balancing feature, also got on to EVBox but I know nothing about them. Ideally won't go over the SEAI grant.

We think this is the only place we can put it in the garden really, anywhere else cables would be trip hazards or it would be too difficult to bring a connection to. Maybe a little closer to the ground. We'll probably bring the cable under the path/between the grout ourselves and get the electrician to connect the ends. Excuse my terrible editing skills.

RonnieL

DesperateDan wrote: »

I'm getting a Zappi purely because of the load balancing and the fact that it negates the need for a priority switch. Not even considering solar right now. All chargers at that price are pretty future proofed, it just needs a Type 2 connection and a 32A feed. If there is a possibility you will have a second car and second charger then both Zappis will make sure they won't trip the fuse board.

You can update the software on the Zappi as well.

I would definitely get an outdoor socket installed at the same time, it's basically the same job.

I certainly wouldn't rule out a second EV at some point.

Anyone care to suggest an alternative to the Zappi? If not, I might just go with it.

PS: Do people do anything to secure their charging units? To protect from theft/weather/young lads messing.

rolion

I dont get the beauty with Zappi in relation to load balancing and load limiting.
Too late for me to change it now but i love / like to know what is it and how will you use it in a typical working environment .

I dont believe in the thing with PV panels,thats a nice marketing bonus feature that works if you have over 5Kw PVs installed power so that you can use 2kw for appliances and 3kw for charging the car over daytime.And that if Sun allows....and the car at home.

I stand to be corrected on any features AND hate to be brought as the last one major advantage being the price... i consider you buy it once along with the expensive car and a very decent grant.

Thanks in advance.

KCross

rolion wrote: »

I dont get the beauty with Zappi in relation to load balancing and load limiting.
Too late for me to change it now but i love / like to know what is it and how will you use it in a typical working environment .

load limiting - most houses have a 64A limit on their consumer unit. If you are running an electric shower (35A+) and you then add a 32A car charger you blow the fuse..... unless you have a priority switch or unless you have a load limiting charge point like the Zappi.

A priority switch to buy and install is about €200 so its a very useful feature if you have an electric shower and want to add car charging.


load balancing - Somewhat similar to load limiting but it's future proofing your install for the case where you have 2 EV's some time down the road. Two EV's charging at the same time will again blow the fuse but load balancing will share the load across the 2 EV's to ensure they are both fully charged overnight without blowing fuses.

Your typical dumb charge point is basically all or nothing. It delivers the full 32A or nothing, nothing in between.


The Solar PV bit is also a bit more useful than you suggest. It does of course require the car to be at home and plugged in while the sun is shining, which will be useless to you if the car needs to be at work during the day but in the case where the car is at home... even 6pm on a summers evening.... it will take whatever excess is available. If there is 4kW excess it will send 4kW to the car, if you then turn on the kettle and you now have only 2kW excess it will reduce what it sends to the car while the kettle boils and then ramp the car up again once the kettle is boiled.... the idea is to only take the excess rather than sending it to the grid for free.


You decide based on your own personal circumstances which, if any, of those features are useful to you.

Ush1

Hey lads,

I bought the zappi and got a local electrician to install it. Seemed to do a good job and said 100 quid should cover it however he didn't fill in his part of the grant form and he said the reason is that a form 3 has been added that he didn't know about so will have to get a panel test done and a cert but he can't give the certs himself so now he's saying the cheapest he can get one for me is 300 quid!

Does this sound right to you lads? Can I submit the grant form just for the costs of the Zappi and leave it at that?

KCross

Ush1 wrote: »

Hey lads,

I bought the zappi and got a local electrician to install it. Seemed to do a good job and said 100 quid should cover it however he didn't fill in his part of the grant form and he said the reason is that a form 3 has been added that he didn't know about so will have to get a panel test done and a cert but he can't give the certs himself so now he's saying the cheapest he can get one for me is 300 quid!

Does this sound right to you lads? Can I submit the grant form just for the costs of the Zappi and leave it at that?

That depends on what the agreement between the two of you was.

Is he a local lad you met in the pub and he said he'd do it for mates rates or did you agree up front that he would install it and complete the grant forms?

The grant has always been the same. You need an official electricians cert to claim the grant.

If you didnt agree the grant element with him up front then it would be fair game for him to charge you more for that as he now has to get someone to certify the house (not just the charge point) and submit a cert. That costs time and money.

My guess is you didnt agree it or he didnt understand your request since he isnt able to provide the cert himself so he was never going to be able to fill the grant forms for you.


And no, you cant just submit the zappi receipt. You need the cert to prove it was done properly.

TheChizler

KCross wrote: »

load limiting - most houses have a 64A limit on their consumer unit. If you are running an electric shower (35A+) and you then add a 32A car charger you blow the fuse..... unless you have a priority switch or unless you have a load limiting charge point like the Zappi.

Is there a sensor to attach near the meter to sense the total load or something?

Ush1

KCross wrote: »

That depends on what the agreement between the two of you was.

Is he a local lad you met in the pub and he said he'd do it for mates rates or did you agree up front that he would install it and complete the grant forms?

The grant has always been the same. You need an official electricians cert to claim the grant.

If you didnt agree the grant element with him up front then it would be fair game for him to charge you more for that as he now has to get someone to certify the house (not just the charge point) and submit a cert. That costs time and money.

My guess is you didnt agree it or he didnt understand your request since he isnt able to provide the cert himself so he was never going to be able to fill the grant forms for you.


And no, you cant just submit the zappi receipt. You need the cert to prove it was done properly.

I found him on a local Facebook page and he agreed to fill in his part of the grant form beforehand. If he can't provide the cert would that mean he isn't an electrician at all?

n97 mini

If he's RECI he's a registered electrician.

But for the grant a whole pile of indirectly related checks have to be done... making sure earths are up to current regs etc. Afaik this means (among others) making sure all your taps are earthed etc.

KCross

TheChizler wrote: »

Is there a sensor to attach near the meter to sense the total load or something?

Yes, exactly.

Ush1 wrote: »

I found him on a local Facebook page and he agreed to fill in his part of the grant form beforehand. If he can't provide the cert would that mean he isn't an electrician at all?

He probably is a trained electrician just not a certified one so he cant give you a cert for work completed.

He now has to find a certified electrician who is willing to signoff on his work. Thats easier said than done because the guy who has to come and sign it off is going to have to inspect work from another electrician that he doesnt know or didnt supervise and has no idea what he actually did onsite.

If the house burns down its the guy who signs the cert has to stand over the job not your local guy.

If the agreement between the two of you was clear and he said he was going to signoff on the grant forms then its his bad and he should rectify it but you need to be realistic... the job was €100 and now its going to cost €300 more for the cert. Clearly he isnt going to stump up the €300 for your benefit. He is more likely to cut his losses and forego the €100.

That leaves you with two choices...
- claim the grant and get someone in to certify the job and pay them their €300 or whatever you can negotiate and possibly have to do more work as well if they find any issues with other things in the house like earthrods, insufficient tails, earthing issues etc. i.e. They might refuse to give you a cert until you do more work to bring the house up to regulation!

- forego the grant and chalk it down to experience as it is clearly laid out in the T&C's of the grant that you have to use a registered electrician. Cold comfort now.

n97 mini wrote: »

If he's RECI he's a registered electrician.

Op said the local guy cant give the certs himself so that means he's not a RECI.

Ush1

Thanks for that.

Problem is he did say he could fill out his part of the grant form beforehand.

Would I have any comeback here legally?

Just to add my wife has already paid him the 100 quid. The other thing is if I was to forgo the grant, how do I know the installation is safe at all?

KCross

Ush1 wrote: »

Thanks for that.

Problem is he did say he could fill out his part of the grant form beforehand.

Would I have any comeback here legally?

Maybe. Would it be worth it to sue your local spark and have him bad mouthing you in the pub to his mates... your call!


It is mainly his fault, from what you've described, but its also somewhat your fault too as you didnt read the T&C's of the grant.
I know the small print can be hard to decipher and if you dont know what a certified electrician is, how can you know what you dont know.


Next step is to have a conversation with him and see what he can do and see if you can negotiate that €300 down on the basis it was his own fault.

If you have a big bust up with him and he walks away it will be harder for you to get someone to certify his work than if he gets someone himself to do it.

It depends on what kind of a character he is really. Maybe he's decent and will put his hand up and admit he got it wrong. Maybe he wont and leave it to you to sort it out.

KCross

Ush1 wrote: »

Just to add my wife has already paid him the 100 quid. The other thing is if I was to forgo the grant, how do I know the installation is safe at all?

Well that doesnt give you any wriggle room now so.

As for whether its safe or not.... thats down to trust. He is local, so do you trust his expertise or not?

It sounds like it would be in the back of your mind so maybe get a certified electrician in and pay the €300 if you think he is any way shady.

YOu probably paid about €550 for the Zappi, €100 for the local guy and another €300 now for the cert and then get the €600 back so thats a net €350 you need to pay for piece of mind (assuming there are no issues with your house wiring... which there could very well be if its an old house)

Or forego the grant and it will have cost you €650.

Do you trust his work or not is the thing.

n97 mini

KCross wrote: »

Op said the local guy cant give the certs himself so that means he's not a RECI.

Ush1 wrote: »

Problem is he did say he could fill out his part of the grant form beforehand.

That sounds like he's RECI. The rest of it doesn't though...

OP, as regards being RECI or not could be the difference between being having paid his membership dues, or not. He could still be a qualified electrician (or not). It does sound like you'd be winning financially though if you paid the extra and got the grant.

KAGY

n97 mini wrote: »

That sounds like he's RECI. The rest of it doesn't though...

OP, as regards being RECI or not could be the difference between being having paid his membership dues, or not. He could still be a qualified electrician (or not). It does sound like you'd be winning financially though if you paid the extra and got the grant.

Is your electrician on this list: https://safeelectric.ie/find-an-electrician/

BTW, my install cost 150 inc cert and about 7 m of 6 sq cable

KCross

KAGY wrote: »

BTW, my install cost 150 inc cert and about 7 m of 6 sq cable

Thats interesting. So, maybe the €300 being quoted is excessive then but its alot easier for a RECI to provide a cert for his own work at a decent rate.

Having to retrospectively provide a cert for someone else's work is going to cost more.

Batesy

Is there a particular spec of cable to use to future proof?

Is 6mm2 enough?

stimpson

Batesy wrote: »

Is there a particular spec of cable to use to future proof?

Is 6mm2 enough?

6mm2 is enough for 32A/7.2KW. Even if your car will only charge at 16A it will be futureproofed.

rolion

My spark has recommended 10sq mm but with some sort of metalic shielding,like H E R E .
My charger 32A came with 6sq mm cable out of factory.

stimpson

rolion wrote: »

My spark has recommended 10sq mm but with some sort of metalic shielding,like H E R E .
My charger 32A came with 6sq mm cable out of factory.

Is your cable running underground? Mine is straight out through the wall near the fuse box.

slave1

rolion wrote: »

My spark has recommended 10sq mm but with some sort of metalic shielding,like H E R E .
My charger 32A came with 6sq mm cable out of factory.

If you're getting outside cabling then just go SWA all the way, no need for ducting then, just clip to wall/wherever

Ush1

KCross wrote: »

Thats interesting. So, maybe the €300 being quoted is excessive then but its alot easier for a RECI to provide a cert for his own work at a decent rate.

Having to retrospectively provide a cert for someone else's work is going to cost more.

Had a chat with him and the 300 has miraculously become 50 quid.

Batesy

25% off Black Friday deal on Rolec Wall Pods @ evonestop.co.uk.

Ordered myself a 32Amp tethered Type one delivered for €354 via Parcel Motel

KAGY

Batesy wrote: »

Is there a particular spec of cable to use to future proof?

Is 6mm2 enough?

Depends on the length, whether it's in a wall with insulation etc, but is rated for 32a

Batesy

KAGY wrote: »

Depends on the length, whether it's in a wall with insulation etc, but is rated for 32a

My run will be about 4 metres indoors then 10 metres outdoors. I'm thinking of going 10sq mm armoured to future proof the cable run.

Might be over kill??

unkel

That's a fairly long run. You don't have to go 10mm2 (for 32A), but I think I would in your case.

KAGY

http://www.doncastercables.com/technical-help/

Cable size calculator to bs spec. Don't take as Gospel though

rolion

I find very peculliar EV car owners giving advise here about the type. length and maybe "i think i will go for i will not go with that cable or that length", all from behind the keyboard ...
WTF are we paying the electrician to do their jobs for !? If the chap says 10 go for 10, otherwise leave the man to do his job.

My guy said is his way or not signing any papers... hate it when i had to stay and watch him doing the work...

Good luck.

n97 mini

One thing about SWA is it's very stiff and doesn't do tight radius bends easily. The alternative is regular cable in ducting.

Zenith74

rolion wrote: »

I find very peculliar EV car owners giving advise here about the type. length and maybe "i think i will go for i will not go with that cable or that length", all from behind the keyboard ...
WTF are we paying the electrician to do their jobs for !? If the chap says 10 go for 10, otherwise leave the man to do his job.

I think it's just that most of us here are Electric Vehicle nerds, with the emphasis on Electric. So we like to nerd-out over chargers, the number of kW we'll be pumping, the sizes of cables required etc. First thing I did after getting two chargers installed was to stick them both on with all the lights and the oven to see the maximum kW to the house it would draw :rolleyes:

The other thing though is that lots of us do DIY on our homes, so in my case for example I had ceilings down, floors up etc. so wanted to pull in cables for future EV chargers, pulled some in for future solar panels etc. Yes you could contract an electrician to answer the question or try to find a friendly one who would tell you over the phone, but hell loads of us have done that before, and this is a discussion forum, so why not shoot the **** about it here .

FWIW I went with 10sqmm T+E flat for mine, price difference from 6sqmm is negligible, it's not too much more difficult to work with, so while I'm going to the effort of putting it down walls etc. why not...