Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

KCross

cruisey1987 wrote: »

If your employer is insisting on kWh used, then I think the Zappi can display historical data via the app, but I'm not sure if it's to the granularity you'd require. You could look at getting a CT meter installed on the charger supply line and just provide readings to your employer who will reimburse you at an agreed rate per kWh

The thing is, and its the reason why I asked catharsis about it, is that the EVSE has no way of knowing how much of your mileage is personal or business.

All it knows is it took X kWh for any given session.

You could, for instance, have a 400km range EV and do 200km's business mileage and another 150km personal mileage and then charge the car up to 100%. All the EVSE will tell you is that it charged it to 100%. It has no way of splitting it unless there is some fancy UI that allows you to split it, in which case you would already have a logbook of your business mileage somewhere so why not just submit that to the business rather than complicating it and trying to remember journeys you did 3-4 weeks ago.


Just agree a €/km figure and submit your mileage seems the least complicated to me and likely to give you the best value also.

the_amazing_raisin

I think the whole business fuel expenses situation needs to be reviewed for EVs as it's still based on an ICE vehicle.


Typically with an ICE vehicle on a business trip you'd refuel before you go, in which case you'll burn the fuel on the trip, or refuel on the way back, in which case the fuel you're putting in covers what you burnt on the trip. Or you could do both if you wanted to be really exact



It makes sense because the fuel you put in is going to be used for business travel regardless.


But with an EV, most people with home chargers will be at 100% before they leave every time. Does that count as a business expense, since you'd probably have charged the car to full regardless? What if you charged the car from home solar energy, should you be allowed to claim for that?



What about if you use a charger that is free, should you still be reimbursed for that? Are employees going to be pressured to use free charging where possible even though it might result in more mileage?


The whole €/km system is simpler but I think some employers shy away from it as they might be paying more than they have to if they simply reimbursed expenses

KCross

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I think the whole business fuel expenses situation needs to be reviewed for EVs as it's still based on an ICE vehicle.


Typically with an ICE vehicle on a business trip you'd refuel before you go, in which case you'll burn the fuel on the trip, or refuel on the way back, in which case the fuel you're putting in covers what you burnt on the trip. Or you could do both if you wanted to be really exact



It makes sense because the fuel you put in is going to be used for business travel regardless.


But with an EV, most people with home chargers will be at 100% before they leave every time. Does that count as a business expense, since you'd probably have charged the car to full regardless? What if you charged the car from home solar energy, should you be allowed to claim for that?



What about if you use a charger that is free, should you still be reimbursed for that? Are employees going to be pressured to use free charging where possible even though it might result in more mileage?


The whole €/km system is simpler but I think some employers shy away from it as they might be paying more than they have to if they simply reimbursed expenses

I guess it depends on the business mileage in question...

- Company owned vehicle with home charging
- Employee owned vehicle with mileage charged.

For the latter the mileage is alot more than just the fuel.

A long time ago when I was putting in for mileage I got alot more back than the fuel. In fact I didnt even need to provide fuel receipts.

It was €/km agreed figure and that covers fuel, tyres, depreciation, tax, insurance etc and as long as you didnt exceed public service rates it was entirely unvouched as long as you had a log of the mileage (date, destination, miles).

So, having a €/kWh figure would be an extremely unfair way to give business mileage to an EV user as thats pittance and doesnt cover the depreciation costs, tyres etc. Anyone signing up to a €/kWh figure for their own car is crazy, imo.


For the company owned vehicle scenario... you'd still need a log of what miles are personal and business and a €/kWh figure would be hard to administer as you dont use the same amount of energy all year round for any given km driven.

A €/km figure is simple. Just make sure its weighted in your favour , of course. The company should still be gaining relative to a diesel car.

catharsis

Hi All

1. in my vase (and I believe it is the case for more people than may have considered it) the costs of the upgrade to 3 Phase was the same 'minimum' cost as basically any connection change (including upgrading the MIC of the house IIRC) which was just over €1000, and made lots of sense when conducting a full refit/rewire of the house with heat pump etc.

2. as regards the billing issue, I was envisaging it in the context of company-owned vehicles only. Employers are entitled to refund employees for all charging business or personal at 0% BIK - hence all I am looking for is detail of what units were supplied when really, I would propose to then invoice the employer (which may be myself :-) ) for the full cost of that electricity. This is in addition to the benefit of the free company car (which implies that you cannot claim for ' mileage' per km).

3. in terms of load sharing, I was considering this in the light of having two chargers as we have two EVs in the house - on the other hand now that we have them both a long time and are used to them I'm not really certain that a second charger is needed. the only real benefit of two chargers would be to ensure that the car would always be plugged in to 'its' charger - which could be relevant if wishing to use solar to charge whichever car happens to be parked in front of the house.

4. From research the Zappi also does load sharing as set out above as well as the 'diverter' functionality which some responses mentioned.

KCross

catharsis wrote: »

2. as regards the billing issue, I was envisaging it in the context of company-owned vehicles only. Employers are entitled to refund employees for all charging business or personal at 0% BIK - hence all I am looking for is detail of what units were supplied when really, I would propose to then invoice the employer (which may be myself :-) ) for the full cost of that electricity. This is in addition to the benefit of the free company car (which implies that you cannot claim for ' mileage' per km).

In that case all you need is the trivial solution of a kWh meter on the charge point. You dont need any smart charge point for that as you say you are just going to bill the lot so you just need a running total.

catharsis wrote: »

3. in terms of load sharing, I was considering this in the light of having two chargers as we have two EVs in the house - on the other hand now that we have them both a long time and are used to them I'm not really certain that a second charger is needed. the only real benefit of two chargers would be to ensure that the car would always be plugged in to 'its' charger - which could be relevant if wishing to use solar to charge whichever car happens to be parked in front of the house.

ok, thats an important distinction.
Possibly a load sharing charge point would do you then but you'd need to set it to a low total rate between the two of them as you dont want to blow the house fuse if you do happen to turn both chargers on at the same time, no matter how rare that might be.

However, I'd recommend you get a charge point that has total house load sensing and not just load balancing between two charge points (which isnt really as useful, imo).

catharsis wrote: »

4. From research the Zappi also does load sharing as set out above as well as the 'diverter' functionality which some responses mentioned.

Zappi does more. It will do load balancing and load limiting. Load limiting is particularly important if you have two charge points or other high power devices in the house like electric showers or heat pumps.

The Tesla wall connector wont do that, so not the same thing at all. Be careful what you buy here as you may not get the result you are after.

If you go the route of one charge point then its somewhat moot but if you have two EV's its nearly always going to be better to have two charge points even though it might be possible to work with just one.

the_amazing_raisin

catharsis wrote: »

Hi All

1. in my vase (and I believe it is the case for more people than may have considered it) the costs of the upgrade to 3 Phase was the same 'minimum' cost as basically any connection change (including upgrading the MIC of the house IIRC) which was just over €1000, and made lots of sense when conducting a full refit/rewire of the house with heat pump etc.

2. as regards the billing issue, I was envisaging it in the context of company-owned vehicles only. Employers are entitled to refund employees for all charging business or personal at 0% BIK - hence all I am looking for is detail of what units were supplied when really, I would propose to then invoice the employer (which may be myself :-) ) for the full cost of that electricity. This is in addition to the benefit of the free company car (which implies that you cannot claim for ' mileage' per km).

3. in terms of load sharing, I was considering this in the light of having two chargers as we have two EVs in the house - on the other hand now that we have them both a long time and are used to them I'm not really certain that a second charger is needed. the only real benefit of two chargers would be to ensure that the car would always be plugged in to 'its' charger - which could be relevant if wishing to use solar to charge whichever car happens to be parked in front of the house.

4. From research the Zappi also does load sharing as set out above as well as the 'diverter' functionality which some responses mentioned.

Interesting to know in terms of the 3 phase, it seems worthwhile for a full refit like you're doing, not so much for an upgrade like my house would be

The Zappi can do load sharing or limiting, essentially you'll attach a current sensor to the input to the charger and set the current limit on the charger, say 32 amps

So if anything is using 16 amps on that connection then the Zappi will limit itself to 16 amps.

I think if you have 2 zappis then you can do something a little more intelligent like letting one charge before the other, there seems to be a few options

One argument for having two chargers would be if you're getting solar panels installed like you indicated. Two chargers means you can self consume more electricity on a sunny day, so even less grid power used. Otherwise to maximize the savings you'd need to swap the cars around at the right moment

I think the Volkswagen Charger Pro might have the usage statistics capacity you mentioned, although I think it lacks some of the other functions you were looking for.

You can always get an energy monitor installed on the charger supply, then you could keep an eye on the usage remotely. I've been using the Open Energy monitor for several months now and it's pretty good, been able to keep track of how much I've spent on electricity for my Leaf

https://openenergymonitor.org/

KCross

cruisey1987 wrote: »

The Zappi can do load sharing or limiting, essentially you'll attach a current sensor to the input to the charger and set the current limit on the charger, say 32 amps

So if anything is using 16 amps on that connection then the Zappi will limit itself to 16 amps.

It’s more than that. It’s limiting based on the size of the fuse for your whole house.

The sensor goes on the incoming mains, not on the input to the charge point.

catharsis

I think a simple energy monitor which doesn't provide any output doesn't give the evidence' I';d like to be able to give to my employer (and more importantly to revenue). this open energy monitor option may work for me though... depending on the available reports

I like the comment from KCross that one is always better off having the two chargers than one, all else being equal, and I think the convenience aspect is important.

incidentally both Audi and BMW charging stations mention comparability with Solar but both seem to think that will happen in conjunction with some sort of undefined home energy management system so I suspect this may be vaporware?

the_amazing_raisin

KCross wrote: »

I guess it depends on the business mileage in question...

- Company owned vehicle with home charging
- Employee owned vehicle with mileage charged.

For the latter the mileage is alot more than just the fuel.

A long time ago when I was putting in for mileage I got alot more back than the fuel. In fact I didnt even need to provide fuel receipts.

It was €/km agreed figure and that covers fuel, tyres, depreciation, tax, insurance etc and as long as you didnt exceed public service rates it was entirely unvouched as long as you had a log of the mileage (date, destination, miles).

So, having a €/kWh figure would be an extremely unfair way to give business mileage to an EV user as thats pittance and doesnt cover the depreciation costs, tyres etc. Anyone signing up to a €/kWh figure for their own car is crazy, imo.


For the company owned vehicle scenario... you'd still need a log of what miles are personal and business and a €/kWh figure would be hard to administer as you dont use the same amount of energy all year round for any given km driven.

A €/km figure is simple. Just make sure its weighted in your favour , of course. The company should still be gaining relative to a diesel car.

Unfortunately you generally have to take whatever the company is offering, and they'll tend to go with whatever is cheapest for them.

For example my wife's employer gives a car allowance to cover car expenses and a fuel card to pay for fuel. They're basically given a fixed annual mileage with the fuel card

It generally works out well for my wife as she essentially gets the fuel cheaper and the car allowance works in her favour

However of she moved to an EV then things get a bit more difficult. I doubt they'd agree to a €/km model just for her so most likely she'd only get to expense her public charging, since that's likely for business travel

It would still represent a huge saving for both her and her employer

KCross

cruisey1987 wrote: »

However of she moved to an EV then things get a bit more difficult. I doubt they'd agree to a €/km model just for her so most likely she'd only get to expense her public charging, since that's likely for business travel

In that case I’d tell the employer that if they only want to pay for public charging then I’ll be sure to start my day with just enough to get to a public charger and they can be paying for me to sit in the car for an hour being unproductive!!

In reality the company, if it has any sense, will give you a decent €/km figure or pay for home charging etc.

Most companies haven’t even thought about it yet though.

Felexicon

catharsis wrote: »

I think a simple energy monitor which doesn't provide any output doesn't give the evidence' I';d like to be able to give to my employer (and more importantly to revenue). this open energy monitor option may work for me though... depending on the available reports

I like the comment from KCross that one is always better off having the two chargers than one, all else being equal, and I think the convenience aspect is important.

incidentally both Audi and BMW charging stations mention comparability with Solar but both seem to think that will happen in conjunction with some sort of undefined home energy management system so I suspect this may be vaporware?

Wallbox Pulsar Plus provides what you want re metering spec.

When you sign up to the app you also get access to an online portal which stores your charging sessions and kWh consumed. All data can be exported to excel.

You could also install a Pulsar for your 2nd charger and link both with a 32 amp limit.

Clamp on your main incomer will also prevent against overloading main fuse if you have an electric shower or heat pump installed

griffdaddy

I'm pretty sure someone tried to pry my enext charger off the wall and cracked the casing a little bit. It looks more like they were trying to open it for some reason. Maybe thought it was some kind of storage box or something?

KCross

catharsis wrote: »

I think a simple energy monitor which doesn't provide any output doesn't give the evidence' I';d like to be able to give to my employer (and more importantly to revenue). this open energy monitor option may work for me though... depending on the available reports

Personally I think you are overly complicating it, particularly if revenue is your primary concern.

Revenue clarified the 0% BIK thing for work charging in the budget a year or two ago because it was near impossible to collect any tax on it and if they did it would be relatively speaking miniscule money.

I think an email to revenue would be worth a shot and ask them what they'd require. I'd bet a regular reading from your charge point (once a week, once a month or whatever) would be more than enough for the amounts of money involved.

All they will care about is that you arent charging the entire neighbourhood and putting it through your books or scamming the numbers to such a degree that you are getting your entire electricity bill inc PSO levy etc paid for by the company.... regular meter readings will be enough to show you arent pulling the piss.... but an email to revenue will quickly answer that.

eagerv

griffdaddy wrote: »

I'm pretty sure someone tried to pry my enext charger off the wall and cracked the casing a little bit. It looks more like they were trying to open it for some reason. Maybe thought it was some kind of storage box or something?

Sorry to hear, I hope this is not a sign of the future..
With the cut-off switch now being installed, it makes it a bit safer for the thief!


I have a camera on side of our house, but wonder how much of a deterrent this is.

KCross

catharsis wrote: »

I'm looking for 3-Phase compatible, Load Balancing compatible, Solar compatible and ideally 'smart' in terms of being capable to produce a bill suitable for raising expense claims.

krissovo mentioned this charger on another thread and he's happy with it...
https://wallbox.com/en_ie/wallbox-pulsar

It meets all your requirements except, I think, Solar integration.
Seems to have a good report on eash session etc for revenue, 3ph etc.

Is Solar integration a must have for you?

griffdaddy

eagerv wrote: »

Sorry to hear, I hope this is not a sign of the future..
With the cut-off switch now being installed, it makes it a bit safer for the thief!


I have a camera on side of our house, but wonder how much of a deterrent this is.

They didn't seem to trigger the smart doorbell so must have come through the side of the neighbour's garden. I actually had a eufy cam for the side of the hosue ordered before I noticed so I feel vindicated now for my 'pointless purchase'.

To be honest I don't think they knew what they were doing. They could have opened the unit just as quickly with a screwdriver so it was either someone opportunistic or someone who had no idea what they were even trying to take. They hadn't turned the isolation switch off either. Kind of wish they'd got through the plastic now! The unit still works grand though, just a minor crack underneath that needs masking tape

eagerv

griffdaddy wrote: »

They didn't seem to trigger the smart doorbell so must have come through the side of the neighbour's garden. I actually had a eufy cam for the side of the hosue ordered before I noticed so I feel vindicated now for my 'pointless purchase'.

To be honest I don't think they knew what they were doing. They could have opened the unit just as quickly with a screwdriver so it was either someone opportunistic or someone who had no idea what they were even trying to take. They hadn't turned the isolation switch off either. Kind of wish they'd got through the plastic now! The unit still works grand though, just a minor crack underneath that needs masking tape

I hope charge points aren't going to be a target in the future.


When we sold our Prius last Feb the new proud owner only had it about 2 days when the catalytic converter was stolen at his home in Dublin. It was covered under his insurance but it was more of a worry that someone would enter your private property for a relatively low value robbery.

the_amazing_raisin

griffdaddy wrote: »

I'm pretty sure someone tried to pry my enext charger off the wall and cracked the casing a little bit. It looks more like they were trying to open it for some reason. Maybe thought it was some kind of storage box or something?

Maybe they were trying to steal your electricity, to save a grand couple of euros


Truth be told, I don't read too much into vandalism, you're assuming they have a working brain which is typically not the case



Saw some chargers being advertised is Canada as being more rugged than typical one and even being vandal proof. I assumed this was for public station but might be useful in areas where the charger is exposed to damage. I think the brand name was Grizzl-E or something. I assume they aren't available here yet since it's a Canadian company AFAIK, but maybe there's something similar in Europe

the_amazing_raisin

eagerv wrote: »

I hope charge points aren't going to be a target in the future.


When we sold our Prius last Feb the new proud owner only had it about 2 days when the catalytic converter was stolen at his home in Dublin. It was covered under his insurance but it was more of a worry that someone would enter your private property for a relatively low value robbery.

I can't wait for someone to try and saw into an EV looking for the batteries. With a bit of luck they'd get covered in toxic chemicals or set on fire, or ideally both

dbloke

Got my 1st quote to install Tesla charger, already purchased. €1,240! :eek:

That's more than twice the highest I would have expected for installation only. Not even complicated. Consumer unit is literally other side of the wall in back kitchen.

Must be a Kerry tax or something. Very frustrating as this is 3rd electrician. No response at all from first one; 2nd promised twice to take a look but hasn't turned up.

tk123

TJJP wrote: »

@emmetlego

If you're still looking, the QUBEV (from EvoOneStop or Amazon) is worth a look.

I got a QUBEV - EV CHARGING UNIT | TYPE 2 SOCKET | 32 AMP/7.2 KW | IP65 | (17th Edition)
for around £229 delivered from Amazon. It's a basic dumb charger, but everything you need, if like me, you have a car app.

Not tethered, but it's a small and tidy unit and I don't mind not having the cable laying around.

There's an 18th edition too (dc leakage protection), that's about £299, but I'm not sure if regs require that here yet.

Hey thanks for that! Ordered one earlier.

the_amazing_raisin

dbloke wrote: »

Got my 1st quote to install Tesla charger, already purchased. €1,240! :eek:

That's more than twice the highest I would have expected for installation only. Not even complicated. Consumer unit is literally other side of the wall in back kitchen.

Must be a Kerry tax or something. Very frustrating as this is 3rd electrician. No response at all from first one; 2nd promised twice to take a look but hasn't turned up.

Yeah that sounds familiar. A lot of electricians I spoke to didn't want the job so they just priced themselves outrageously high.

In the end I got the electrician who did the wiring for the house, he did it for around €700 and that was routing it through an air duct to the outside and along steel conduit outside, not not super simple

For comparison, the first electrician tried to charge me over €900 to (illegally) take a wire out of the meter box to the charger 10cm away

dbloke

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Yeah that sounds familiar. A lot of electricians I spoke to didn't want the job so they just priced themselves outrageously high.

In the end I got the electrician who did the wiring for the house, he did it for around €700 and that was routing it through an air duct to the outside and along steel conduit outside, not not super simple

For comparison, the first electrician tried to charge me over €900 to (illegally) take a wire out of the meter box to the charger 10cm away

The electrician that has failed to show twice did our house when we built it! That was 7 years ago, don't think he even remembers.

Feeder

tk123 wrote: »

Hey thanks for that! Ordered one earlier.

Was thinking of getting this myself but stopped short of purchasing when I read the following in the Amazon description:

Make sure your car is unlocked with no charge settings/timers turned on.

Do you guys leave the car unlocked during charging? I would have to charge once per week so was going to set the timer to charge from 1am as we have an electric shower but no chance it would be used after midnight on the same night the car is charging.

tk123

Feeder wrote: »

Was thinking of getting this myself but stopped short of purchasing when I read the following in the Amazon description:

Make sure your car is unlocked with no charge settings/timers turned on.

Do you guys leave the car unlocked during charging? I would have to charge once per week so was going to set the timer to charge from 1am as we have an electric shower but no chance it would be used after midnight on the same night the car is charging.

I took that as one of the troubleshooting steps eg if you plug in and nothing happens?

Feeder

tk123 wrote: »

I took that as one of the troubleshooting steps eg if you plug in and nothing happens?

That sounded very odd alright, I think you are right. I looked at the I stay and user guide and there was no mention of that.

Did you get a price to install? If you could PM me that would be great so I have a ballpark figure

tk123

Feeder wrote: »

That sounded very odd alright, I think you are right. I looked at the I stay and user guide and there was no mention of that.

Did you get a price to install? If you could PM me that would be great so I have a ballpark figure

€0 - my dad is going to install for me lol :P

the_amazing_raisin

tk123 wrote: »

€0 - my dad is going to install for me lol :P

Just a heads up, when I was getting the charger grant I needed to supply in invoice with the installation cost. So getting the family discount might end up costing you the grant

slave1

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Just a heads up, when I was getting the charger grant I needed to supply in invoice with the installation cost. So getting the family discount might end up costing you the grant

Why, none of their business what the lecce charges, the equipment alone will likely cover the €600

the_amazing_raisin

Hi folks, I'm thinking about upgrading my EV next year and getting a tethered Zappi in the process.

I'm thinking I could sell the current charger along with the car (7kW EO Mini untethered) to help sell it and the new owner wouldn't need to worry about getting one.

I'm wondering however does the home charger grant allow for a second hand charger? I'm presuming when I'm selling it I could agree with the buyer that say €250 is for the charger and do up some sort of receipt based on that. Do you know of that would be accepted by the SEAI?

I'd prefer not to accidentally screw someone out of €600 by trying to save them money on the charger