Old house, no earth wires. Need to change lamps

bassheavy

Hello all.

I have a wiring issue and I'm wondering if I have been presented with a valid option.

It is VERY cost prohibitive to re-wire.

We need to replace a couple of pendant lamps. Issue is all new lamps/lighting comes with ground wires.

Your man said, as a workaround, he can wire the earth to the neutral and if something goes wrong, it will blow the circuit right away.

Now this seems to be a fix i can live with. Am I being mad? Will I electrocute my children?

Sleeper12

How old is the house?

Is there an earth at any sockets? Or no earth at all?

Tuco88

I would not consider the Neutral to the Earth job at all.. If the Neutral breaks or could come loose on that circuit its not a good situation at all.

Imo you have two choices.

1. Install earths/re-wire .

2. Double insulted lamps (Generally all plastic)

Its a light fixture not a table lamp with plug correct?

bassheavy

Sleeper12 wrote: »

How old is the house?

Is there an earth at any sockets? Or no earth at all?

Built in 1922! Quite old for residence in Dublin.
No earth at all. We did have to put one in for the boiler, but everything is plastered over now.

Tuco88 wrote: »

I would not consider the Neutral to the Earth job at all.. If the Neutral breaks or could come loose on that circuit its not a good situation at all.

Imo you have two choices.

1. Install earths/re-wire .

2. Double insulted lamps (Generally all plastic)

Its a light fixture not a table lamp with plug correct?

yes, it's a light fixture. hanging lamps and outdoor lights. The current outdoor lights is just put up with the ground wwire just floating inside.

2011

Connecting the earth to the neutral is not safe for too many reasons to get into on a smartphone. You need a rewire, anything less is a gunter. Sometimes there is no affordable answer.

I can explain the dangers later when I am in front of a pc if you are interested.

bassheavy

2011 wrote: »

Connecting the earth to the neutral is not safe for too many reasons to get into on a smartphone. You need a rewire, anything less is a gunter. Sometimes there is no affordable answer.

I can explain the dangers later when I am in front of a pc if you are interested.

i wouldn't mind if you have the time.

I need to explain it to my wife!

2011

bassheavy wrote: »

i wouldn't mind if you have the time.

I need to explain it to my wife!

Ok, in a meeting now. Will do it at 9ish when I’m home.

Risteard81

bassheavy wrote: »

Your man said, as a workaround, he can wire the earth to the neutral and if something goes wrong, it will blow the circuit right away.

Totally illegal. A PEN conductor cannot be used within the installation. That would be a TN-C installation.

evosteo

bassheavy wrote: »

Your man said, as a workaround, he can wire the earth to the neutral and if something goes wrong, it will blow the circuit right away.

Now this seems to be a fix i can live with. Am I being mad? Will I electrocute my children?

Crazy advice, mother of god

17larsson

I really hope that wasn't an electrician that told you to do that.

If the neutral was connected to the earth terminal and for some reason the main neutral at the supply broke then the only path back to the transformer is through you when you touch the metal frame of whatever you have 'earthed'.
You might have a 1920s version of an earth spike wired in 2.5sq to help a bit but I wouldn't like to have to rely on it as a lifesaver.

You would be one bad connection away from being electrocuted.

I would get all the wiring in the house checked by a proper electrician and as 2011 said a re-wire is probably/definitely needed

Sleeper12

If there is no earth then it's a no brainer imo. Safely first. House must be rewired.

Earth on a neutral reminds me of a power shower I looked at last year. Originally it was wired for a low voltage shower & whoever replaced it with a 230 volt shower realised that they only had a live & neutral going to the shower. Instead of rewiring they wrapped copper wire around the copper pipe feeding the shower. The copper pipe was earthed somewhere in the house so everything should work out fine. Problem is plumbers when cutting out earthed copper pipe & replacing it with qualpex kill the earth run through the copper pipes. You just never know when the earth to shower, through the copper pipe is going to be made redundant

punisher5112

Neutral can kill you on a AC wiring system.

As above get it re wired.

How old and what colour are the cables anyway.

bassheavy

17larsson wrote: »

I really hope that wasn't an electrician that told you to do that.

If the neutral was connected to the earth terminal and for some reason the main neutral at the supply broke then the only path back to the transformer is through you when you touch the metal frame of whatever you have 'earthed'.
You might have a 1920s version of an earth spike wired in 2.5sq to help a bit but I wouldn't like to have to rely on it as a lifesaver.

You would be one bad connection away from being electrocuted.

I would get all the wiring in the house checked by a proper electrician and as 2011 said a re-wire is probably/definitely needed

He said he was an electrician!

Sleeper12 wrote: »

If there is no earth then it's a no brainer imo. Safely first. House must be rewired.

Earth on a neutral reminds me of a power shower I looked at last year. Originally it was wired for a low voltage shower & whoever replaced it with a 230 volt shower realised that they only had a live & neutral going to the shower. Instead of rewiring they wrapped copper wire around the copper pipe feeding the shower. The copper pipe was earthed somewhere in the house so everything should work out fine. Problem is plumbers when cutting out earthed copper pipe & replacing it with qualpex kill the earth run through the copper pipes. You just never know when the earth to shower, through the copper pipe is going to be made redundant

****e. Sounds like it will cost a fortune!

Thankfully it's a very small house.

punisher5112 wrote: »

Neutral can kill you on a AC wiring system.

As above get it re wired.

How old and what colour are the cables anyway.

Seem to be blue and brown.

Some, like the front, are just white!

2011

Sorry OP work has been hectic. Will get back to you on this shortly.

bassheavy

2011 wrote: »

Sorry OP work has been hectic. Will get back to you on this shortly.

Don't be silly.

I got the point NOT to do this. I think we will just change the outside lights and rewire those to have a ground. The fusebox is right by the front door, so i assume they will be able to run a ground fairly unobtrusively.

When it is time to do some work on the house, we can redo everything.

aido79

bassheavy wrote: »

He said he was an electrician!

Was he Australian?
In Australia they use an MEN link at the fuseboard to connect the neutral bar to the earth bar so effectively all of the neutrals and earth are joined together. It's illegal in most other countries as far as I am aware but part of the regulations in Australia.

Victor

bassheavy wrote: »

The fusebox is right by the front door

What does this look like? Old style circular fuses of a back of switches?

2011

aido79 wrote: »

In Australia they use an MEN link at the fuseboard to connect the neutral bar to the earth bar so effectively all of the neutrals and earth are joined together.

It's called "neutralising" (as you probably know).
In Ireland this is normally done in the meter cabinet. This is actually standard practice in many countries.

A neutral conductor is considered a live conductor, so it should be treated accordingly.

In reality many people care little about whether an electrical practice is "legal" or not, they are far more concerned about the consequences.

Connecting the earth of an appliance to the neutral in the field is known as bootleg earth. This is quite different because the conductive parts (such as the casing) of the appliance can have a current flowing through them under normal operating conditions. This results in a potential difference (voltage) existing between the casing of an appliance and earth. The magnitude of this potential difference depends on many factors. Beyond a certain point it becomes a shock risk and fire hazard.

2011

bassheavy wrote: »

I got the point NOT to do this. I think we will just change the outside lights and rewire those to have a ground.

That would be a good start. I would suggest that you select a different electrician! Also, whatever electrician you use get him / her to check out the rest of the installation while they are at it. Hopefully the survey can be used to split the work into two groups:
1) Requires urgent attention as there is an unacceptable shock risk or risk of fire.
2) Less important stuff that needs to be done to comply with current regulations. For example, red and black colored cables when they should be brown and blue.

Old houses such as yours back in the day would have been wired using cables like this. Some of these cables may still be in use, if so they present considerable risk as the insulation would be in very poor condition by now. In addition the wiring would not have been designed for the higher electrical loads that we have now. I would rather disconnect these cables and do without than run the risk of using them.

All socket circuits must be protected by an RCD. This is not some OTT regulation, these units are an important safety feature.

Best of luck with it anyway!

bassheavy

Thanks for all the help, lads.

Great resource!