Trouble on Tory Island...

wexandproud

end of the road wrote: »

it's not tough at all, they are entitled to protest and try to get a boat service that is to their liking. if they don't succeed then so be it.

I agree that they are entitled to protest , but what exactly are they protesting about . when this thread was started , it was all about the boat not being suitable due to various so called safety issues . The marine survey office has surveyed the boat and pass her fit for service , so we can take as a given that the ''queen of aran '' is safe
So what are they protesting about? what exactly don't they like about the service to be provided ? .

donegaLroad

Widdensushi wrote: »

Is that the reason for the protests? If so it is like a wife complaining that the neighbours have a new car and why don't we. Everyone s situation is different and when you start saying that an island in a different country with a similar population has a better ferry there are probably plenty of islands with bigger populations in other countries without a state sponsored ferry.

Its not the reason for the protests, it is my own viewpoint. An island close in size and population almost within sight of Tory gets a a brand new ferry. What makes Rathlin different?

PRidley

donegaLroad wrote: »

Its not the reason for the protests, it is my own viewpoint. An island close in size and population almost within sight of Tory gets a a brand new ferry. What makes Rathlin different?

So what is the reason for the protest? A new boat has been promised for a Tory.

donegaLroad

PRidley wrote: »

Hasn’t a brand new boat been promised to the Tory islander by the government I the past few months?

If a new boat is what the islanders want why keep protesting when it has been promised. You can’t have a new boat overnight.

The bottom line here, as I see it, is that the representatives of Tory island took their eye off the ball by not checking the tender requirements when they were published at tender stage. They have been offered to have a new boat built for their island which seems to be a very fair response by the Governent.

Why keep protesting? What exactly do the islanders want?

I didn't realise this. If there is a new boat on the way then thats great.

PRidley

donegaLroad wrote: »

I didn't realise this. If there is a new boat on the way then thats great.

Well this appears to say that the intention is to provide a new boat and pier improvements:

https://www.chg.gov.ie/minister-of-state-joe-mchugh-announces-that-plans-are-to-be-developed-for-the-provision-of-a-purpose-built-ferry-for-toraigh-and-for-an-extension-to-machaire-rabhartaigh-pier/

seamus

donegaLroad wrote: »

2017, the new Spirit of Rathlin Ferry

Rathlin has a population of approx 150.

That's a different country.

The Backwards Man

seamus wrote: »

That's a different country.

Didn't bother Paisley in 1980.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~theislandtrust/index.htm

donegaLroad

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Didn't bother Paisley in 1980.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~theislandtrust/index.htm

When I was out on Tory last April, I was talking to some of the Islanders about that very thing.

wexandproud

donegaLroad wrote: »

Its not the reason for the protests, it is my own viewpoint. An island close in size and population almost within sight of Tory gets a a brand new ferry. What makes Rathlin different?

nobody is able to give any valid reasons why the people are unhappy with the ferry being provided , and people have been following this thread with interest to know what the reasons are , like i said before if the are not happy with the public transport let them make alternative arrangements or boycot the service . Both those options are well within their rights .
i don't see what the ferry to an island in a different country has to do with the discussion

donegaLroad

wexandproud wrote: »

nobody is able to give any valid reasons why the people are unhappy with the ferry being provided , and people have been following this thread with interest to know what the reasons are , like i said before if the are not happy with the public transport let them make alternative arrangements or boycot the service . Both those options are well within their rights .
i don't see what the ferry to an island in a different country has to do with the discussion

The islands are geographically very close, and demographically very similar. It is interesting to compare how our neighbouring country has made provisions to the people of Rathlin, by way of a new ferry (built in ROI).

We often look to the UK when comparing how we do things in ROI, and there are a number of bi-lateral arrangements that are in place between us and the UK.

For example, you can use a Bus Eireann ticket on an Ulsterbus to get from Dublin to Donegal.

ohnonotgmail

donegaLroad wrote: »

The islands are geographically very close, and demographically very similar. It is interesting to compare how our neighbouring country has made provisions to the people of Rathlin, by way of a new ferry (built in ROI).

We often look to the UK when comparing how we do things in ROI, and there are a number of bi-lateral arrangements that are in place between us and the UK.

For example, you can use a Bus Eireann ticket on an Ulsterbus to get from Dublin to Donegal.

Surely it is more appropriate to ask is the new ferry fit for purpose rather than is it as shiny as the one next door?

Sleepy

donegaLroad wrote: »

Rathlin has a population of approx 150.

It's also located within a nation state that the British government has to bribe to the tune of billions every year not to tear itself apart in sectarian violence so there's plenty of cash floating around for folly's.

donegaLroad

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Surely it is more appropriate to ask is the new ferry fit for purpose rather than is it as shiny as the one next door?

At the end of the day, they should run the Queen of Aran and see how it goes.

I can't see how the government are going to risk people's lives by running a dangerous boat. There is supposed to be a new, purpose built ferry on the way soon anyway.

donegaLroad

Sleepy wrote: »

It's also located within a nation state that the British government has to bribe to the tune of billions every year not to tear itself apart in sectarian violence so there's plenty of cash floating around for folly's.

I think that those days are well past us. Also, that part of the province has rarely been subject to sectarian violence. The people of North Antrim have managed to live a harmonious existence.

The UK government funds 66 ferry routes that run to all of Scotland's islands. They continue to fund all of these routes despite the cost of subsidy almost doubling in the last 10 years, to £200 million.

Widdensushi

donegaLroad wrote: »

I think that those days are well past us. Also, that part of the province has rarely been subject to sectarian violence. The people of North Antrim have managed to live a harmonious existence.

The UK government funds 66 ferry routes that run to all of Scotland's islands. They continue to fund all of these routes despite the cost of subsidy almost doubling in the last 10 years, to £200 million.

As said before it's not the same as many of those islands have industry on them, base's for oil work, fishing boats, fish factories, massive fish farms, military base's etc etc. Also the one ferry could service a few islands. It is very different to one island with no apparent 'gdp'.

wexandproud

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Surely it is more appropriate to ask is the new ferry fit for purpose rather than is it as shiny as the one next door?

i think that has been the point all along . the queen of aran is only to be used until the new one is built and there is no way an unsuitable boat will be allowed to be used . I think at this stage it is not unreasonable to assume that people are protesting just for the sake of it , unless someone can , after 600 odd posts tell us the problem

PRidley

wexandproud wrote: »

i think that has been the point all along . the queen of aran is only to be used until the new one is built and there is no way an unsuitable boat will be allowed to be used . I think at this stage it is not unreasonable to assume that people are protesting just for the sake of it , unless someone can , after 600 odd posts tell us the problem

Post 514 makes more and more sense as this debacle goes on.

wexandproud

PRidley wrote: »

Post 514 makes more and more sense as this debacle goes on.

yep . there is no other reasons being put forward so far . the best one poster could do was ask for proof the tendering process was fair .

Bob_Marley

donegaLroad wrote: »

The islands are geographically very close, and demographically very similar. It is interesting to compare how our neighbouring country has made provisions to the people of Rathlin, by way of a new ferry (built in ROI).

We often look to the UK when comparing how we do things in ROI, and there are a number of bi-lateral arrangements that are in place between us and the UK.

For example, you can use a Bus Eireann ticket on an Ulsterbus to get from Dublin to Donegal.

Nothing new, even the British for all their faults introduced and maintained railway networks to even the most rural areas of Ireland, Scotland and Wales, because the British understand a county, like any team, is only as strong as it's weakest areas.

Successive backward and parochial Dublin governments then made sure they were ripped out and closed.

PRidley

donegaLroad wrote: »

The islands are geographically very close, and demographically very similar. It is interesting to compare how our neighbouring country has made provisions to the people of Rathlin, by way of a new ferry (built in ROI).

We often look to the UK when comparing how we do things in ROI, and there are a number of bi-lateral arrangements that are in place between us and the UK.

For example, you can use a Bus Eireann ticket on an Ulsterbus to get from Dublin to Donegal.

It should be borne in mind that the Northern Ireland government only have one island to look after whereas the Irish government have up to 20 ferry services. It’s easier to provide money for one boat than 20, especially when ultimately it is being funded by the Westminster government.

All the boats in the south seem to be owned privately and there doesn’t seem to be anything like the level of complaint that is coming from the Tory islanders.

Curly head

The newly refurbished boat looks good!

Graces7

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

You live there all year round or just a visitor for the insular craic?

I personally would dislike the fact that everyone knows my business, I think living in a terraced house in somewhere like Cork or Dublin would be less nosey,

That is a No from me so.

Actually privacy is precious and well protected. I have been here on a smaller island than Tory since September and know very few islanders still.

When I lived in donegal, Tory appealed but I was reliably informed re the feu ding that is endemic there

And I will never ever forgive what they did to the cats,especially as a welfare group in the UK was happy to have taken them all off

Yes, it is not for everyone,island life but suits me perfectly/ Our Parish priest comes over every two weeks and hates doing so."What if something happens? YOU CAN'T GET OFF!"

He is wrong as we have, as do all the islands, a modern helipad and in fact you would be in hospital far faster than by road ambulance .

But yes, things tend to be more intense etc; think "Lord of the Flies". "Storm in a teacup."
Fascinating thread

Graces7

Ubbquittious wrote: »

It's not for everyone but then neither is the mainland. It's a really fun place and I'd recommend it to anyone

I've said before I find the Aran islands a bit posh and a bit too commercialised. Still good for a weekend but it's clear to see that they're just milking the tourists and there's throngs of them arriving on every ferry in the summer. I think it's great that there's people living on places like Tory and that they havn't been evacuated like the Blaskets, Inishark, Inishtrahull. If anything they should be bringing people back to these islands, restoring the old ruins to their former glory and so on. I don't think there's anything noble in the humdrum of modern society and if someone wants to live on an island like that fair fcuks to them, most

people are too busy sitting behind their xbox to take up island life.

Great post. I spent months looking into islands and aiming to get away from heavy tourism and rejected e Cape Clear and Inishboffin.

Graces7

whisky_galore wrote: »

I could see the appeal of a weekend visit in summer but to endure bleak fcuking winters, trapped there for days or weeks on end.... that's a big fat nope from me.

Perfection for me is that. That you see it as trapped? I see it as snug and peaceful

Graces7

andekwarhola wrote: »

To be fair, how much taxpayer money should be used to facilitate such a small amount of people that choose to live on a tiny island?

We even get an island allowance....

Graces7

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Am just thinking there. So you are living on an island out in the Atlantic, that few visit really comparatively speaking.

What is the attraction living in such an isolated spot. I dunno. Must work for some though.

I wish I knew how wonderful it is for a youngish person to live there. So tell me!

There is peace and space. But then I am older. And these days, "civilisation" is portable.

Graces7

Nomis21 wrote: »

My opinion is that although they are friendly and engage with visitors who do venture out to Tory, the population is not interested in expanding tourism to the island. There is no tourism facilities at all either owned or operated by local people.

There is a small community of artists from different parts who have at different times spent time on the island, and their work can be seen exhibited on the walls of the hotel, but the islanders do not want permanent residents coming to live on the island from outside. Even holiday homes are not welcome. One was destroyed by islanders and another had its sea view totally blocked by the building of the noisy generator which supplies the islands electricity.

That is what I like about Tory. The island and the islanders only want to preserve the life and culture that they have now, not to transform the island into a tourist destination. It has the feeling of an Ireland of the past with almost no traffic or pollution. This needs to be preserved.



The islanders concerns need to be addressed about their lifeline to the outside World. They are concerned that decisions about their welfare are being decided without their representation and that's why they will be at Leinster House on Wednesday. I will be joining them there.

While I agree with your basic tenets, what the islanders did and do to inc omers is appalling

Graces7

PRidley wrote: »

Hardly the type of place one would want to go if the islanders are so militant!

I don’t imagine the islanders built the generator building - surely it would have been built by the ESB. I can’t imagine that they would have built it to deliberately block the view of an unwelcome holiday home owner!

From my limited knowledge of the island there are lots of cars - the vast majority of the ones I saw were untaxed, uninsured and appeared to have questionable roadworthiness.

"Island cars" are on every offshore island and also in the UK. As long at it goes, you uses it.In the UK the reasoning is that there is no test centre etc and ti is perfectly above board. Recycling

whisky_galore

Bob_Marley wrote: »

donegaLroad wrote: »

The islands are geographically very close, and demographically very similar. It is interesting to compare how our neighbouring country has made provisions to the people of Rathlin, by way of a new ferry (built in ROI).

We often look to the UK when comparing how we do things in ROI, and there are a number of bi-lateral arrangements that are in place between us and the UK.

For example, you can use a Bus Eireann ticket on an Ulsterbus to get from Dublin to Donegal.

Nothing new, even the British for all their faults introduced and maintained railway networks to even the most rural areas of Ireland, Scotland and Wales, because the British understand a county, like any team, is only as strong as it's weakest areas.

Successive backward and parochial Dublin governments then made sure they were ripped out and closed.

Not really comparing like with like. When people got new cars they're not going to bother their arses with the train esp in this country.

Graces7

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no, not unless they pay for it themselves. How is living out there in any way sustainable and why should tax payers be forced to subsidise it? What does it add to the nation in any way?

Cape Clear is a tourist haven and less and less tradionally Irish. Glamping and yurts... A neighbour here opines they are so busy chasing the next euros they forget everything else.

In that sense it is sustainable. They were given the grants to improvefacilities to attract more tourists and of course they have the summer Gaelic school

Bob_Marley

whisky_galore wrote: »

Not really comparing like with like. When people got new cars they're not going to bother their arses with the train esp in this country.

Pretty narrow minded view of a railway system and network. Thankfully they didn't rip the lines out of rural Scotland or Wales using the same false logic.

PRidley

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

"Island cars" are on every offshore island and also in the UK. As long at it goes, you uses it.In the UK the reasoning is that there is no test centre etc and ti is perfectly above board. Recycling

So you think that it is ok for islanders to drive uninsured cars which, if involved in an accident, could leave an injured party without access to compensation.

And do you think that it is ok for islanders to drive untaxed cars - even thought they could pay a low Island car tax rate - and still feel an entitlement to top class services funded by other taxpayers?

Graces7

PRidley wrote: »

So you think that it is ok for islanders to drive uninsured cars which, if involved in an accident, could leave an injured party without access to compensation.

And do you think that it is ok for islanders to drive untaxed cars - even thought they could pay a low Island car tax rate - and still feel an entitlement to top class services funded by other taxpayers?

??? where did I say that please? I was simply stating the facts. Many ie anyone who takes their car to the mainland, will have insurance etc.

In the years I was living on a North Sea island, I have never had an "island car" nor was there ever an accident involving one.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/many-island-motorists-to-be-exempt-from-car-test-1.264513

Not sure what your last sentence refers to?

PRidley

Graces7 wrote: »

??? where did I say that please? I was simply stating the facts. Many ie anyone who takes their car to the mainland, will have insurance etc.

In the years I was living on a North Sea island, I have never had an "island car" nor was there ever an accident involving one.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/many-island-motorists-to-be-exempt-from-car-test-1.264513

Not sure what your last sentence refers to?

You have stated in your post that the practice is “perfectly above board”!

There would be very few vehicles on Tory island which would be brought to the mainland by their owners - until they end up going for scrap. On that basis, your claim that many would have insurance etc is not correct.

My last sentence refers to the sense of entitlement to a top class Ferry service and roads and schools by islanders who do not feel a sense of duty to pay their car tax.

Your link to the Irish Times article refers to the NCT exemption for island vehicles which has nothing to do with car tax or insurance.

Graces7

PRidley wrote: »

You have stated in your post that the practice is “perfectly above board”!

There would be very few vehicles on Tory island which would be brought to the mainland by their owners - until they end up going for scrap. On that basis, your claim that many would have insurance etc is not correct.

My last sentence refers to the sense of entitlement to a top class Ferry service and roads and schools by islanders who do not feel a sense of duty to pay their car tax.

Your link to the Irish Times article refers to the NCT exemption for island vehicles which has nothing to do with car tax or insurance.

Disagree with you but then I am an islander. Schools have nothing to do with car tax .. Nothing to do with "entitlement"

Of course a safe and yes comfortable ferry service is needed. An essential not a luxury

PRidley

Graces7 wrote: »

Disagree with you but then I am an islander. Schools have nothing to do with car tax .. Nothing to do with "entitlement"

Of course a safe and yes comfortable ferry service is needed. An essential not a luxury

As I see it all our taxes - including car tax - go into a melting pot to pay for the services provided by our state. Those who decide that they don’t want to contribute to that melting pot have, in my opinion, little right to complain when they don’t get the standard of service they feel entitled to. So, on that basis, schools and car tax and every other tax we pay for that matter are related.

I don’t see what you being an islander has to do with what is being discussed.

There hasn’t been any evidence produced on this thread to date to demonstrate that the proposed service will not be safe or comfortable.

whisky_galore

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Pretty narrow minded view of a railway system and network. Thankfully they didn't rip the lines out of rural Scotland or Wales using the same false logic.

Welcome to Ireland, enjoy your stay.

Now we have a cohort of people who would like operational railways turned into Greenways, square that circle if you will, but I digress...

PRidley

According to Local online news today it looks like a new deal involving extra helicopter trips, extra sailings for cargo, an extra small fast boat service is now being offered to the Tory Islanders. This is based on a report prepared by a mediator.

I wonder how much all these extra “sweeties” will cost us taxpayers? It would be hard to imagine it would anything less than €150,000 extra per year!! It’s not hard to mediate on a deal when you can have the taxpayer fork out over half a million extra over five years to get a deal!! You would imagine it would have to be cheaper to buy the boat from the new contractor/operator and just tie her up somewhere and go to Tender again.

It will be interesting to see how many other islands around the coast will be looking for the same extra services.

nice_guy80

PRidley wrote: »

According to Local online news today it looks like a new deal involving extra helicopter trips, extra sailings for cargo, an extra small fast boat service is now being offered to the Tory Islanders. This is based on a report prepared by a mediator.

I wonder how much all these extra “sweeties” will cost us taxpayers? It would be hard to imagine it would anything less than €150,000 extra per year!! It’s not hard to mediate on a deal when you can have the taxpayer fork out over half a million extra over five years to get a deal!! You would imagine it would have to be cheaper to buy the boat from the new contractor/operator and just tie her up somewhere and go to Tender again.

It will be interesting to see how many other islands around the coast will be looking for the same extra services.

come back and moan when you've lived on an island for a few years

PRidley

nice_guy80 wrote: »

come back and moan when you've lived on an island for a few years

It doesn’t make any difference whether I have or haven’t lived on an island. I have set out my opinion on something. That is something that I am entitled to do as I please. Instead of your dismissive comments it would be more beneficial to the discussion here if you could describe why all the extra “sweeties” that taxpayers will subsidize are necessary.

In any case how do you know that I haven’t or that I don’t live on an island?

Kivaro

PRidley wrote: »

In any case how do you know that I haven’t or that I don’t live on an island?

Don't we all live on an Island?

PRidley

Kivaro wrote: »

Don't we all live on an Island?

Indeed. I think the point being made in previous posts re islands is pretty clear though.

Widdensushi

Queen of aran is looking well

Atlantic Dawn

There's going to be a vote on the island this weekend on the compromise, hopefully the Russians don't try to influence the result, it would make a fine site for a naval base...

Tory islanders have been asked to vote this weekend on a compromise which aims to resolve the row over transport links with the Donegal mainland.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tory-islanders-to-vote-in-bid-to-resolve-ferry-row-1.3438240

Graces7

end of the road wrote: »

it's the state's job to run socially necessary but non-financially and non-commercially viable services. the tory islanders do not have the means to pay for this vital service alone. they are going to continue to get their service as they are entitled to it.

Occurred to me that b the token of those against the islanders re financially viable, what about the amount of money farmers get from the state. Clearly then they are not financially viable

Does any public transport system, which is what this is, pay for itself.?

PRidley

Graces7 wrote: »

Occurred to me that b the token of those against the islanders re financially viable, what about the amount of money farmers get from the state. Clearly then they are not financially viable

Does any public transport system, which is what this is, pay for itself.?

I don’t think anyone expects a public transport system to pay for itself. What is in question throughout this thread is the level/quality of transport service to and from Tory as expected by islanders as compared to what is deemed adequate by the state. In rural Ireland bus services are infrequent and on lower quality buses than the busier routes because that is what the powers that be determine to be suitable. Locals may be unhappy but they don’t - to my knowledge - threaten to block access to roads and bus stops by those buses. They are what are known as law abiding citizens.

Tory is getting a boat that is licenced for the route by the State. That should, in my opinion, be enoughin as a “lifeline” service for slightly more than 100people. The island’s population isn’t much bigger than a small housing estate after all.

And the amount of state supports received by farmers is, as you have correctly pointed out, also questionable. But that is a completely separate argument and has nothing to do with a subsidised Ferry boat.

Graces7

PRidley wrote: »

I don’t think anyone expects a public transport system to pay for itself. What is in question throughout this thread is the level/quality of transport service to and from Tory as expected by islanders as compared to what is deemed adequate by the state. In rural Ireland bus services are infrequent and on lower quality buses than the busier routes because that is what the powers that be determine to be suitable. Locals may be unhappy but they don’t - to my knowledge - threaten to block access to roads and bus stops by those buses. They are what are known as law abiding citizens.

Tory is getting a boat that is licenced for the route by the State. That should, in my opinion, be enoughin as a “lifeline” service for slightly more than 100people. The island’s population isn’t much bigger than a small housing estate after all.

And the amount of state supports received by farmers is, as you have correctly pointed out, also questionable. But that is a completely separate argument and has nothing to do with a subsidised Ferry boat.

Depends on how servicable the boat is and given the seas it will tackle, how good the stabilisers are after 42 years? We have made great progress in such things in 4 decades. I Lived many years on a North Sea island, There were three boats serving these islands and we all knew which one we preferred and felt most comfortable in those waters
.
I trust the islanders on this, totally. They know far more than we do from living there. And the numbers do not have any relevance here. How could they?
Standards have to be the same for 10 as for 100 and it is far more than a "lifeline"service.

wexandproud

PRidley wrote: »

According to Local online news today it looks like a new deal involving extra helicopter trips, extra sailings for cargo, an extra small fast boat service is now being offered to the Tory Islanders. This is based on a report prepared by a mediator.

I wonder how much all these extra “sweeties” will cost us taxpayers? It would be hard to imagine it would anything less than €150,000 extra per year!! It’s not hard to mediate on a deal when you can have the taxpayer fork out over half a million extra over five years to get a deal!! You would imagine it would have to be cheaper to buy the boat from the new contractor/operator and just tie her up somewhere and go to Tender again.

It will be interesting to see how many other islands around the coast will be looking for the same extra services.

any complaints about the service being provided were about the ''queen of aran '' being unsuitable and/or unsafe. how will extra helicopter trips [ no problem with that in case of medical emergencies ] all of a sudden make the Q O A suitable .
How come in all the discussion on here , including some who claimed to be islanders never mentioned that any of these extra perks were being sought. I think they are well within their rights to live on an island but they have to accept that with that comes some form of disruption to the way of life they choose and at some point the government have to say no . Its the same on the mainland , public transport can't be provided to every parish in the country and if someone chooses to live away off the beaten track then they have to accept that sometimes they will have difficulty getting where they want to be .

Graces7

wexandproud wrote: »

any complaints about the service being provided were about the ''queen of aran '' being unsuitable and/or unsafe. how will extra helicopter trips [ no problem with that in case of medical emergencies ] all of a sudden make the Q O A suitable .
How come in all the discussion on here , including some who claimed to be islanders never mentioned that any of these extra perks were being sought. I think they are well within their rights to live on an island but they have to accept that with that comes some form of disruption to the way of life they choose and at some point the government have to say no . Its the same on the mainland , public transport can't be provided to every parish in the country and if someone chooses to live away off the beaten track then they have to accept that sometimes they will have difficulty getting where they want to be .

Cannot believe your last sentence. On land you can drive a car or walk, but on water???

wexandproud

Graces7 wrote: »

Cannot believe your last sentence. On land you can drive a car or walk, but on water???

its quiet simple really , i have to provide my own transport . they are the people who choose island life they are the one's should have considered the water not me . Did they not take into account that the very fact they live on an island they would be surrounded by the stuff