Trouble on Tory Island...

PRidley

Graces7 wrote: »

Depends on how servicable the boat is and given the seas it will tackle, how good the stabilisers are after 42 years? We have made great progress in such things in 4 decades. I Lived many years on a North Sea island, There were three boats serving these islands and we all knew which one we preferred and felt most comfortable in those waters
.
I trust the islanders on this, totally. They know far more than we do from living there. And the numbers do not have any relevance here. How could they?
Standards have to be the same for 10 as for 100 and it is far more than a "lifeline"service.

Stabilizers? I don’t think the Queen of Aran, or the existing Ferry for that matter have stabilizers. Do you think they (qoa or existing Ferry) have stabilizers?

The fact of the matter is that the proposed boat will be approved by the Marine Office as suitable for the route. The approval is given by trained competent staff based on detailed design and calculation of the vessel. It is not based on random, uninformed opinion.

Whether we like it or not the numbers do matter. If I decide to live in some remote far flung corner of Ireland or any other country we have to accept that we won’t have the same level of service as the more populated areas.

It is a lifeline service - look at the documents issued for the tenders.

wexandproud

PRidley wrote: »

Stabilizers? I don’t think the Queen of Aran, or the existing Ferry for that matter have stabilizers. Do you think they (qoa or existing Ferry) have stabilizers?

The fact of the matter is that the proposed boat will be approved by the Marine Office as suitable for the route. The approval is given by trained competent staff based on detailed design and calculation of the vessel. It is not based on random, uninformed opinio .

jaysus , im not going over all that again

Graces7

wexandproud wrote: »

jaysus , im not going over all that again

lol

PRidley

Graces7 wrote: »

lol

Your posts match many of those from those who don’t like the proposed new boat. Sweeping generalizations based on little or no facts but an unwillingness or inability to answer any posts questioning your “facts”.

Graces7

PRidley wrote: »

Your posts match many of those from those who don’t like the proposed new boat. Sweeping generalizations based on little or no facts but an unwillingness or inability to answer any posts questioning your “facts”.

Thank you and yea, if you mean that I am in solidarity through experience with the islanders, then yes. They know better than anyone after all. And it is they who matter.

You must excuse me now? There is really nothing more to be said . Need to call the ferryman about a crossing.

PRidley

Graces7 wrote: »

Thank you and yea, if you mean that I am in solidarity through experience with the islanders, then yes. They know better than anyone after all. And it is they who matter.

You must excuse me now? There is really nothing more to be said . Need to call the ferryman about a crossing.

As I thought....... no answers.

Strange that those who you think know better are going to have state subsidised training courses as boat skippers as part of the new proposal. If they are such experts they should be giving rather than receiving such training. Saw this on an article in journal.ie.

end of the road

PRidley wrote: »

I don’t think anyone expects a public transport system to pay for itself. What is in question throughout this thread is the level/quality of transport service to and from Tory as expected by islanders as compared to what is deemed adequate by the state. In rural Ireland bus services are infrequent and on lower quality buses than the busier routes because that is what the powers that be determine to be suitable. Locals may be unhappy but they don’t - to my knowledge - threaten to block access to roads and bus stops by those buses. They are what are known as law abiding citizens.

Tory is getting a boat that is licenced for the route by the State. That should, in my opinion, be enoughin as a “lifeline” service for slightly more than 100people. The island’s population isn’t much bigger than a small housing estate after all.

And the amount of state supports received by farmers is, as you have correctly pointed out, also questionable. But that is a completely separate argument and has nothing to do with a subsidised Ferry boat.

peacefully protesting via blocking a low quality bus from moving into a bus stop is perfectly exceptible and those who do it are just as good as any other law abiding citizen.
the state deciding something is fine being enough is not viable, the service has to meet the needs of those who use it as they are the important ones. if the service doesn't meet their needs then it's not a service. the islanders are correct to fight for the service they believe will meet their needs and that is what they are doing.

PRidley wrote: »

Stabilizers? I don’t think the Queen of Aran, or the existing Ferry for that matter have stabilizers. Do you think they (qoa or existing Ferry) have stabilizers?

The fact of the matter is that the proposed boat will be approved by the Marine Office as suitable for the route. The approval is given by trained competent staff based on detailed design and calculation of the vessel. It is not based on random, uninformed opinion.

Whether we like it or not the numbers do matter. If I decide to live in some remote far flung corner of Ireland or any other country we have to accept that we won’t have the same level of service as the more populated areas.

It is a lifeline service - look at the documents issued for the tenders.

the islander's view will not be uninformed opinion. they will know more about the reality then you or i ever will, so if they believe the boat cannot meet their needs then it can't. it maybe suitable to sail the route but by the sounds of it that isn't enough, and the islanders are correct to stand up.

PRidley wrote: »

As I thought....... no answers.

Strange that those who you think know better are going to have state subsidised training courses as boat skippers as part of the new proposal. If they are such experts they should be giving rather than receiving such training. Saw this on an article in journal.ie.

the training course is a fantastic idea.

PRidley

end of the road wrote: »

peacefully protesting via blocking a low quality bus from moving into a bus stop is perfectly exceptible and those who do it are just as good as any other law abiding citizen.

the training course is a fantastic idea.

I disagree with your idea of peaceful protest but respect your view.

You could be right about the training course. Maybe,after the training course there will be someone on the island with some facts to back up their opinions. They might even learn some basic facts about boats! It’s just a pity that the taxpayers will have to pay for it when the rest of us would have to pay out of our own pockets.

end of the road

PRidley wrote: »

I disagree with your idea of peaceful protest but respect your view.

You could be right about the training course. Maybe,after the training course there will be someone on the island with some facts to back up their opinions. They might even learn some basic facts about boats! It’s just a pity that the taxpayers will have to pay for it when the rest of us would have to pay out of our own pockets.

the tax payer paying for this is not a problem. it's going to support one of our island communities.

PRidley

end of the road wrote: »

the tax payer paying for this is not a problem. it's going to support one of our island communities.

Why should someone living on an island get such a course subsidised when someone on the mainland would have to pay themselves?

If they were any use or had any interest in working on, or operating a Ferry service themselves, they would have had the training organized themselves by now.

I suppose it’s hard to see a need to pay for something when you get used to handouts from the state. The place hasn’t become an island overnight!

end of the road

PRidley wrote: »

Why should someone living on an island get such a course subsidised when someone on the mainland would have to pay themselves?

because it's important for them to have the skills. it's socially necessary for them given they live on a small island who's main way off is by boat. they should have been given the training decades ago.

PRidley wrote: »

If they were any use or had any interest in working on, or operating a Ferry service themselves, they would have had the training organized themselves by now.

we can't say that for sure. maybe they have been asking for such training for years, who knows.

PRidley wrote: »

I suppose it’s hard to see a need to pay for something when you get used to handouts from the state. The place hasn’t become an island overnight!

the islanders get help from the state because it's deemed socially necessary for the social good, to insure these islands remain populated and their rich traditions live on, preserving their culture for future generations to witness. the island communities seem to have a distinct rich tradition and herritage that is worth preserving.

Widdensushi

PRidley wrote: »

Why should someone living on an island get such a course subsidised when someone on the mainland would have to pay themselves?

If they were any use or had any interest in working on, or operating a Ferry service themselves, they would have had the training organized themselves by now.

I suppose it’s hard to see a need to pay for something when you get used to handouts from the state. The place hasn’t become an island overnight!

It's obvious there is plenty of cash passengers and there is a campaign on now to get a free new ferry paid for by the taxpayers and crewed by islanders who will be pocketing cash as its only fools pay tax.

PRidley

end of the road wrote: »

because it's important for them to have the skills. it's socially necessary for them given they live on a small island who's main way off is by boat. they should have been given the training decades ago.

They have managed up to now without such training. What has changed?

end of the road wrote: »

we can't say that for sure. maybe they have been asking for such training for years, who knows.

Asking for years ??? If they needed such training why didn’t they just go and pay for it themselves like the rest of us would have to do.

PRidley

Widdensushi wrote: »

It's obvious there is plenty of cash passengers and there is a campaign on now to get a free new ferry paid for by the taxpayers and crewed by islanders who will be pocketing cash as its only fools pay tax.

Nah ..... they wouldn’t do that?😉

The sad thing is that what you are saying is probably true ..... about the new Ferry anyway. And when they will get the new Ferry they won’t bother their asre looking after it and look for a new one again.

end of the road

PRidley wrote: »

They have managed up to now without such training. What has changed?

we don't know that they have managed. for all we know there could have been a campaign for this training to be provided for a long time.

PRidley wrote: »

Asking for years ??? If they needed such training why didn’t they just go and pay for it themselves like the rest of us would have to do.

because quite possibly they couldn't afford to go and pay for it themselves like the rest of us wouldn't have to do because we don't live on a small island unlike them.

Graces7

PRidley wrote: »

As I thought....... no answers.

Strange that those who you think know better are going to have state subsidised training courses as boat skippers as part of the new proposal. If they are such experts they should be giving rather than receiving such training. Saw this on an article in journal.ie.

No; that there is no valid question. A huge difference.

Graces7

end of the road wrote: »

peacefully protesting via blocking a low quality bus from moving into a bus stop is perfectly exceptible and those who do it are just as good as any other law abiding citizen.
the state deciding something is fine being enough is not viable, the service has to meet the needs of those who use it as they are the important ones. if the service doesn't meet their needs then it's not a service. the islanders are correct to fight for the service they believe will meet their needs and that is what they are doing.

the islander's view will not be uninformed opinion. they will know more about the reality then you or i ever will, so if they believe the boat cannot meet their needs then it can't. it maybe suitable to sail the route but by the sounds of it that isn't enough, and the islanders are correct to stand up.


the training course is a fantastic idea.

We already have that as a part of registering to work the boat. Like a car driver

Graces7

PRidley wrote: »

I disagree with your idea of peaceful protest but respect your view.

You could be right about the training course. Maybe,after the training course there will be someone on the island with some facts to back up their opinions. They might even learn some basic facts about boats! It’s just a pity that the taxpayers will have to pay for it when the rest of us would have to pay out of our own pockets.

So you want to captain a boat now?

Graces7

end of the road wrote: »

because it's important for them to have the skills. it's socially necessary for them given they live on a small island who's main way off is by boat. they should have been given the training decades ago.

we can't say that for sure. maybe they have been asking for such training for years, who knows.


the islanders get help from the state because it's deemed socially necessary for the social good, to insure these islands remain populated and their rich traditions live on, preserving their culture for future generations to witness. the island communities seem to have a distinct rich tradition and herritage that is worth preserving.

YAY! Amen..

Graces7

PRidley wrote: »

They have managed up to now without such training. What has changed?



Asking for years ??? If they needed such training why didn’t they just go and pay for it themselves like the rest of us would have to do.

There are new regulations, that is all

Lu Tze

Surely if the new boat doesn't meet the needs of the community, which are vague and multiple and aren't necessarily related to transport on and off the island, they should offer up the difference between the winning tender and tender of their preference?

Cover the difference and get what they want? A compromise no?

PRidley

Graces7 wrote: »

No; that there is no valid question. A huge difference.

This was my question. Which part of it does not seem to be valid?

“Stabilizers? I don’t think the Queen of Aran, or the existing Ferry for that matter have stabilizers. Do you think they (qoa or existing Ferry) have stabilizers?”

PRidley

Graces7 wrote: »

There are new regulations, that is all

What are they? When did they change?

wexandproud

PRidley wrote: »

Why should someone living on an island get such a course subsidised when someone on the mainland would have to pay themselves?

If they were any use or had any interest in working on, or operating a Ferry service themselves, they would have had the training organized themselves by now.

I suppose it’s hard to see a need to pay for something when you get used to handouts from the state. The place hasn’t become an island overnight!

whatever about getting training paid for , the actual training should be a breeze for them and should be only a matter of turning up according to posters on here they are all vastly experienced so at least they will be able to qualify easily , we would be lead to believe that they know more than the MSO
however because they are qualified to take the boat to sea they will still not come near the qualifications needed to say if a boat is fit for purpose . If i buy a car , even though i have a driving licence the car i drive will still have to be certified by being tested.

PRidley

end of the road wrote: »

we don't know that they have managed. for all we know there could have been a campaign for this training to be provided for a long time.

You could be right - I think it’s strange that it’s the first time it has been mentioned in all the discussions to date.

end of the road wrote: »

because quite possibly they couldn't afford to go and pay for it themselves like the rest of us wouldn't have to do because we don't live on a small island unlike them.

Or perhaps it would mean having to get up in the morning and do a days work.

PRidley

wexandproud wrote: »

whatever about getting training paid for , the actual training should be a breeze for them and should be only a matter of turning up according to posters on here they are all vastly experienced so at least they will be able to qualify easily , we would be lead to believe that they know more than the MSO
however because they are qualified to take the boat to sea they will still not come near the qualifications needed to say if a boat is fit for purpose . If i buy a car , even though i have a driving licence the car i drive will still have to be certified by being tested.

I’m surprised that the MSO don’t set up a marine college on Tory so that the vast, untapped until now, knowledge of the islanders can be shared with the wider world!

They probably know more than the people with the qualifications to know if boat is fit for purpose as well!

PRidley

Graces7 wrote: »

So you want to captain a boat now?

Where did I say that I wanted to captain a boat???
PS that is a question.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

PRidley wrote: »

What are they? When did they change?

Don't expect to actually see any answer.

Graces7

PRidley wrote: »

As I thought....... no answers.

Strange that those who you think know better are going to have state subsidised training courses as boat skippers as part of the new proposal. If they are such experts they should be giving rather than receiving such training. Saw this on an article in journal.ie.

Be sure of this; that the great island men who skipper these crucial island ferries in all weathers and across the oceans know exactly what they are doing. Most will have been doing this since they were able for it. Our ferryman here started driving a boat when he was six years old. I trust him implicitly as he knows every current and tide here. Trust him with my life. Watching him is a privilege.

We also got a new subsidised ferry service not long ago and new registration and safety rules came out. Which is all that this is about. Oh and pier renovations.

Because Ireland is a civilised country which treasures its rich and varied heritage. Too many islands have depopulated for lack of some support. That is what Tory is up against, same as here .

Incidentally I am sure bus and train drivers are trained by the companies.

But then you know all this!

PRidley

Lu Tze wrote: »

Surely if the new boat doesn't meet the needs of the community, which are vague and multiple and aren't necessarily related to transport on and off the island, they should offer up the difference between the winning tender and tender of their preference?

Cover the difference and get what they want? A compromise no?

Shock, horror. Local community pay ..... how dare you suggest such an outlandish plan!!

wexandproud

PRidley wrote: »

I’m surprised that the MSO don’t set up a marine college on Tory so that the vast, untapped until now, knowledge of the islanders can be shared with the wider world!

They probably know more than the people with the qualifications to know if boat is fit for purpose as well!

The natives would probably object , it has been pointed out on this thread that they don't really want a lot of development on the island .

wexandproud

Axton Thundering Ear wrote: »

Don't expect to actually see any answer.

680 odd posts to here without answers , they're hardly going to start now

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

Be sure of this; that the great island men who skipper these crucial island ferries in all weathers and across the oceans know exactly what they are doing. Most will have been doing this since they were able for it. Our ferryman here started driving a boat when he was six years old. I trust him implicitly as he knows every current and tide here. Trust him with my life. Watching him is a privilege.

We also got a new subsidised ferry service not long ago and new registration and safety rules came out. Which is all that this is about. Oh and pier renovations.

Because Ireland is a civilised country which treasures its rich and varied heritage. Too many islands have depopulated for lack of some support. That is what Tory is up against, same as here .

Incidentally I am sure bus and train drivers are trained by the companies.

But then you know all this!

Okay. Why would the skipper of the new ferry provider not be capable too?
That's an actual question.

Your 'ferryman' you told us pilots an eight seater currach. Where is the comparison? That's rhetorical.

Many parts of rural Ireland have been denuded of population too. We survive on ancient irregular bus services but they do the job.

What precisely have you against the new service to Tory?

Most bus drivers are qualified before employment by companies. Yes, the rail company trains their drivers but they don't train the passengers to drive the train too.

wexandproud

Axton Thundering Ear wrote: »

Most bus drivers are qualified before employment by companies. Yes, the company trains their drivers but they don't train the passengers to drive the train too.

with all due respect i burst out laughing when i read that , it's a very good point

PRidley

Graces7 wrote: »

Be sure of this; that the great island men who skipper these crucial island ferries in all weathers and across the oceans know exactly what they are doing. Most will have been doing this since they were able for it. Our ferryman here started driving a boat when he was six years old. I trust him implicitly as he knows every current and tide here. Trust him with my life. Watching him is a privilege.

We also got a new subsidised ferry service not long ago and new registration and safety rules came out. Which is all that this is about. Oh and pier renovations.

Because Ireland is a civilised country which treasures its rich and varied heritage. Too many islands have depopulated for lack of some support. That is what Tory is up against, same as here .

Incidentally I am sure bus and train drivers are trained by the companies.

But then you know all this!

I don’t claim to know “all this” as you have suggested. I asked you what I thought was a valid question about stabilizers that you haven’t seen fit to answer. Your call ..... but don’t say my question isn’t valid without explaining why.

This issue is not about new rules and regulations as you have suggested. It is not a new boat being proposed so new regulations don’t apply. It’s the same with a car - different rules apply depending on the age. What you appear to have is a new Ferry with new pier And possibly in a different country. There are a lot of differences there.

From what I know the people who skipper the existing ferry to Tory are not islanders and haven’t been for years. Where you are is clearly different.

I agree that we must treasure our heritage but everything has a price. It’s easy to want something expensive when you don’t have to pay for it. It’s Governments job to decide whether it’s worth paying for or not.

PRidley

wexandproud wrote: »

The natives would probably object , it has been pointed out on this thread that they don't really want a lot of development on the island .

Oops .... my bad.

Graces7

PRidley wrote: »

I don’t claim to know “all this” as you have suggested. I asked you what I thought was a valid question about stabilizers that you haven’t seen fit to answer. Your call ..... but don’t say my question isn’t valid without explaining why.

This issue is not about new rules and regulations as you have suggested. It is not a new boat being proposed so new regulations don’t apply. It’s the same with a car - different rules apply depending on the age. What you appear to have is a new Ferry with new pier And possibly in a different country. There are a lot of differences there.



I agree that we must treasure our heritage but everything has a price. It’s easy to want something expensive when you don’t have to pay for it. It’s Governments job to decide whether it’s worth paying for or not.

Which they clearly have decided . Over and OUT!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

Which they clearly have decided . Over and OUT!

The usual!!!

PRidley

Axton Thundering Ear wrote: »

The usual!!!

Questions a bit complicated.

end of the road

PRidley wrote: »

Or perhaps it would mean having to get up in the morning and do a days work.

i'd imagine the islanders, or most of them, do exactly that. get up of a morning, or night, and do a shift at work.

PRidley

end of the road wrote: »

i'd imagine the islanders, or most of them, do exactly that. get up of a morning, or night, and do a shift at work.

Right!

PRidley

I’m just after listening to an interview on a Donegal radio station about all that happened after a vote on the island last Saturday. It seems the islanders decided to accept the mediators proposal by a narrow majority but then things got extremely nasty between the islanders. Lots of unsavory scenes in front of ladies and children it seems. Sad day for a small community.

Was it on Highland radio? Id be interested in listening.

Graces7

http://www.thejournal.ie/tory-island-report-recommendations-3921397-Mar2018/

all is well.

PRidley

Graces7 wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/tory-island-report-recommendations-3921397-Mar2018/

all is well.

All is not so well it seem.

http://www.donegaldaily.com/2018/03/26/tory-island-group-claims-vote-on-ferry-service-was-farcical/

PRidley

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Was it on Highland radio? Id be interested in listening.

No. It was RnG.
Only understood bits of it but had someone with me who Explained.

Graces7

PRidley wrote: »

All is not so well it seem.

http://www.donegaldaily.com/2018/03/26/tory-island-group-claims-vote-on-ferry-service-was-farcical/

Island-ing is all. Storms in teacups. You learn to sit lightly on it. All really IS well. New fast boat sounds great fun.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

Island-ing is all. Storms in teacups. You learn to sit lightly on it. All really IS well. New fast boat sounds great fun.

Genuinely I'm asking: What have you based that on, as there are several conflicting report?

PRidley

Graces7 wrote: »

Island-ing is all. Storms in teacups. You learn to sit lightly on it. All really IS well. New fast boat sounds great fun.

That is good to know. Fake news on Tory. And maybe Russian interference in their ballots. Where did we hear all that before! Time we expelled some diplomats.

Graces7

PRidley wrote: »

That is good to know. Fake news on Tory. And maybe Russian interference in their ballots. Where did we hear all that before! Time we expelled some diplomats.

Not exactly fake news. Hard to explain but not the same as on the mainland . , Different mentality and also all the islands are on the defensive re depopulation. Blasket, Inishark, Achill Beg.. Inshturk. in great danger so we get very defensive

The compromise is pretty cool!