Discovery 1x15 - "Will You Take My Hand" [** SPOILERS **]

Evade

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Not really in keeping with Starfleet or Federation ideals, though?

It's a war and that would be a legitimate military target. Not shooting first is a dumb philosophy to have in the middle of a war but that might explain how the Federation was losing so badly.

I would liked to have seen a Dominion War scale battle even just for a bit.

duffman13

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Not really in keeping with Starfleet or Federation ideals, though?

I can see the JJ Abrams version of Trek doing this.

I agree but they are in an open war and about to be destroyed by the Klingon empire, I just felt there was a huge amount of plot holes to try an force and end to the story.

Also genocide which was ordered by the admiralty is not particularly in keeping eith federation ideals. Burnham who pretty much started the war by trying to make a statement to the Klingons then becomes their saviour and hands over Starfleet only leverage

AtomicHorror

Evade wrote: »

It's a war and that would be a legitimate military target. Not shooting first is a dumb philosophy to have in the middle of a war but that might explain how the Federation was losing so badly.

The point of the episode was to resolve Burnham's and Starfleet's journey back to their ideals though. Burnham put survival over ideals when she mutinied, she got lost. Not long after, Starfleet did too. Making the same error she did- getting scared and deciding that survival is justified at any cost.

Things got so bad they put a literal genocidal dictator in control. It was a moment when both of them had a mirror (sorry) held up to them and it turned out the reflection was unrecognisable.

Burnham understood her mistake put ideals before survival, and helped Starfleet see it too. Nice symmetry. It was too rushed, but I liked the basic idea.

LionelNashe

So I get that the Klingon is using the threat of the bomb to unite the houses but why aren't the united houses attacking the federation any more? They just decided they didn't want to continue the war?

And is Ash Tyler a human who had had Klingon memories implanted? What was all that stuff about his bones being shortened etc? What was the whole point of doing whatever was done to him anyway?

noodler

Very poor alright.

Christ the whole war arc just seems so redundant if they can get rid of it in such a short time with such a contrived plot twist (that barely makes sense anyway).

The main two things this had going for it, lorca and the war, are gone now.

Evade

AtomicHorror wrote: »

The point of the episode was to resolve Burnham's and Starfleet's journey back to their ideals though. Burnham put survival over ideals when she mutinied, she got lost. Not long after, Starfleet did too.

Things got so bad they put a literal genocidal dictator in control. It was a moment when both of them had a mirror (sorry) held up to them and it turned out the reflection was unrecognisable.

Burnham understood her mistake put ideals before survival, and helped Starfleet see it too. Nice symmetry. It was too rushed, but I liked the basic idea.

I get what they were trying to do. I was taking up your point about ambushing enemy warships during a time of war as not being a very Federation thing to do. The philosophy of never starting a fight doesn't apply in wartime, it's by definition a prolonged fight.

AtomicHorror

LionelNashe wrote: »

So I get that the Klingon is using the threat of the bomb to unite the houses but why aren't the united houses attacking the federation any more? They just decided they didn't want to continue the war?

L'Rell thinks the war was failing to unite the houses- and it seems that it was, a giant distraction. She wants to unite the houses, so the distraction needs to go.

It's a good way actually, because rather than some mediated peace or Federation victory, where the Klingons would be cowed or become more amenable to the Federation, we get the groundwork for a grudging peace, a simmering antipathy that will resurge later in TOS.

LionelNashe wrote: »

And is Ash Tyler a human who had had Klingon memories implanted? What was all that stuff about his bones being shortened etc? What was the whole point of doing whatever was done to him anyway?

He's biologically a Klingon, made to look indistinguishable to a human, with the memories and personality of a human implanted. That personality is in control.

The point was to allow Voq to steal Discovery and take back control of T'Kuvma's legacy after he lost control of the Sarcophagus. The secondary goal being access to Burnham for the purposes of avenging T'Kuvma's killer.

Evade wrote: »

I get what they were trying to do. I was taking up your point about ambushing enemy warships during a time of war as not being a very Federation thing to do. The philosophy of never starting a fight doesn't apply in wartime, it's by definition a prolonged fight.

I get that too. I guess we're answering two different questions. The in-plot question of why Starfleet didn't have a big fight, versus the story-telling question of why they didn't do that.

The in-plot reason is because Starfleet was on its knees, and even Discovery couldn't plausibly turn that around by attacking the Klingon fleet, or leading a mass attack. It wasn't about the cloaking tech anymore- the war was at the point where the Klingon fleet wasn't bothering to hide its approach to Earth.

AtomicHorror

noodler wrote: »

Very poor alright.

Christ the whole war arc just seems so redundant if they can get rid of it in such a short time with such a contrived plot twist (that barely makes sense anyway).

The main two things this had going for it, lorca and the war, are gone now.

Noodler, you shouldn't seek out experiences that make you unhappy.

Franz Von Peppercorn

It strikes me that ideals are fine until you are in existential threat. I don’t get that any human society, past, present or future would have given up the chance of winning a war and ending an existential threat, based on that crazy idea, which shouldn’t have worked.

A better scriptwriter in the Star Trek canon wrote this piece: it was Quark talking to his nephew.

Quark: Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, Nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces. Look in their eyes.

noodler

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Noodler, you shouldn't seek out experiences that make you unhappy.

Huh?

Evade

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I get that too. I guess we're answering two different questions. The in-plot question of why Starfleet didn't have a big fight, versus the story-telling question of why they didn't do that.

The in-plot reason is because Starfleet was on its knees, and even Discovery couldn't plausibly turn that around by attacking the Klingon fleet, or leading a mass attack. It wasn't about the cloaking tech anymore- the war was at the point where the Klingon fleet wasn't bothering to hide its approach to Earth.

A plausible in story way of having a big fleet battle would be having a Wolf 359 last stand moment against the Klingons while Discovery is doing its thing. That would mean not having the Klingons in Earth orbit towards the end but that was dumb anyway. The Klingon "fleet" is an issue on its own, six or seven ships is a joke as an invasion fleet.

expectationlost

shouldn't saru immediate detain those involved in planning genocide?

expectationlost

why would l'rell blow up her planet? I mean if you she is going to threaten something there must be a chance she'd do it

fritzelly

expectationlost wrote: »

why would l'rell blow up her planet? I mean if you she is going to threaten something there must be a chance she'd do it

It's not that she would but that she has the power to - so listen up and unite or else

Evade

expectationlost wrote: »

shouldn't saru immediate detain those involved in planning genocide?

I can see some of this season being swept under the rug as part of Star Trek's usual season one weirdness.

AtomicHorror

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

It strikes me that ideals are fine until you are in existential threat. I don’t get that any human society, past, present or future would have given up the chance of winning a war and ending an existential threat, based on that crazy idea, which shouldn’t have worked.

A better scriptwriter in the start Trek canon wrote this piece: it was Quark talking to his nephew.

Quark: Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, Nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces. Look in their eyes.

I guess the point was that if you've placed your faith in some ideals, then the true test of them is whether you're prepared to risk annihilation for them. That if you drop them in the worst of circumstances then they were at best, guidelines rather than rules you made for yourself. Worthless, in the end.

Quark is quite right about humans of course, but wasn't the whole idea of the Federation, to say "yes, our nature is awful at its worst, but if we make rules that we hold to no matter what, we have a chance at being better than our nature"?

De Bhál

Well that was a desperate last episode.
"oh right, so she has a bomb she won't detonate, let's make her the boss so"
Just felt tacked together

I enjoyed the season overall, even though, to me, it seemed a bit dry or forced at times. It moved at a good pace and the sets were lavish.

Franz Von Peppercorn

I’d like to see discovery go more episodic. I like the crew now. And hopefully Saru as captain dependent on Burnham as first officer. Tilly in the bridge there too. And the rest get more action and lines.

Doug Jones is great as saru. He gets more emotions across in 5 minutes behind 2 inches of rubber than the entire cast of voyager did in 10 series. (The emergency Doctor aside.)

LionelNashe

Overall, I think the series was watchable, but I'd rank it pretty low compared to all the other Star Treks. The main issue (apart from the plot) is that the characters are fairly lacking in charisma and humour.

Franz Von Peppercorn

LionelNashe wrote: »

Overall, I think the series was watchable, but I'd rank it pretty low compared to all the other Star Treks. The main issue (apart from the plot) is that the characters are fairly lacking in charisma and humour.

Humour maybe, but they’re fairly charismatic.

I think discovery is huge for Netflix. Was at a wedding there and at a table with mixed age groups talking about Netflix and they all mentioned it as the thing to watch, even if you weren’t a sci fi fan.

expectationlost

so when did the bridge twig the captain wasn't the captain?

fritzelly

expectationlost wrote: »

so when did the bridge twig the aptain wasn't the captain?

None of them did except Tilly later and the ones that already knew about her
Remember none of them had probably met her

Why did they let the evil empire woman be the captain???

expectationlost

fritzelly wrote: »

None of them did except Tilly later and the ones that already knew about her
Remember none of them had probably met her

im surely they did when they were discussing genocide with the admiral

fritzelly

expectationlost wrote: »

im surely they did when they were discussing genocide with the admiral

Good point, forgot the mentioning of a Terran but no one seemed to look surprised - maybe just a hiccup in the script and they forgot to tell everyone "hey look surprised"

Sparko

Maybe that transporter operator from last week is a massive gossip.

AtomicHorror

Deleted User wrote: »

Why did they let the evil empire woman be the captain???

So she'd do what they were too clean and civilized to do.

AtomicHorror

AtomicHorror wrote: »

So she'd do what they were too clean and civilized to do.

I actually don't think there's any answer to this question that would be good enough for me. Absolutely bonkers to give a insanely dangerous war monger complete control. Makes no sense. I genuinely feel like I dosed off and missed a few scenes.

flazio

fritzelly wrote: »

None of them did except Tilly later and the ones that already knew about her
Remember none of them had probably met her

Detmer, the red head helm operator definitely had. Well at least, she served with the prime Georgiu on the Shenzou.

Overall I'm glad to see Trek trying new ways of telling stories. Including a Finale which wasn't all phasers on kill, pew pew etc.
Those who diss on Abrahms trek would do well to remember that Discovery probably wouldn't have had the momentum to get made without those movies.

Icemancometh

Hated it. Enjoyed the series but the finale was awful. "We are Starfleet. We don't use violence to solve our problems. We use the threat of genocide instead." And the threat in the end is someone holding a datapad? Shoot her, threat over, back to destroying the Federation. All felt very rushed.