Green fees: how do we stop the golf consultants ruining golf?

rooney30

Ballybunion has raised its green fee to 220. However this may still represent good value relative to its course ranking.. Golf digest has it' ranked 16th in the world . Would you play any of those other courses in the worlds top 20 for less than 220 ? I doubt it . Do some of the other courses in the worlds top 20 charge more than 220? almost certainly , and a lot more I'd say

ShivasIrons

Adiaga 2 wrote: »

It's interesting how value for money in green fees is labelled "race to the bottom" so often. I don't get it personally. Are you saying making golf more affordable to more people is a bad thing? That's what it sounds like.

€150 for Seapoint in February, even on a sunday morning, is ridiculously over priced. It's like the Dacia garage next door to the Ferrari one asking Ferrari prices for a Duster.

There's a couple of points here, value and price are not the same thing, something cheap can be terrible value and something expensive can be great value.

Making golf more affordable is not a bad thing. The 'race to the bottom' has lead to a number of different problems.

Let's look at how golf clubs are funded. They're funded mainly through member subscriptions and in general the subscriptions are linked to how much it costs to run the club. Green fees are then sold for times when the clubs are less busy and are used to subsidize subscriptions.

A green fee should then be related to the subscription, i.e. a one time visitor to a club pays a premium for playing the club. This is subsidizing the subscription. So a quick example of what a green fee should be, if a club is €1000 for the year and the average player plays 40 times it's €25 per round. A green fee for this club should be at least €40-€50 or more depending on quality, location, scarcity etc.

The race to the bottom, however has lead clubs to believe that the only reason that golfers play their club is because of price and that reducing the price will lead to more golfers playing. This however is not true. The reason why golfers join a club or play a club is location, quality of the course, course conditioning, atmosphere in the club, whether their friends are there and then price comes along. It is a factor but it's down on the list of factors.

As clubs think it's the main factor they ignore the other more important factors leading to a decline in services and spending as income decreases. When a regular green fee is cheaper then the average round, members start to leave.

Having a lower and lower green fee makes the business model of a golf course less sustainable and will lead to courses eventually closing. So the 'race to the bottom' would be beneficial to the consumer in the short term in cheaper prices but detrimental in the long term as more facilities close and standards decline in others.

There's a course up the road from here that's available for €10 most days on golf now. They might as well shut it down, they're driving members away. Focus on the member experience, that's the sustainable model.

As for the leading golf courses here, they are charging the correct amount for their courses, otherwise they would be full. The GUI member rate that so many want is a bad idea. Why would you sell a time cheaper to someone who doesn't value it as much as another customer. If you think the course is worth playing, pay it, if not don't.

There's always playing as a guest of member, or a national competition, or scratch cup. Don't expect to play wherever you want to, whenever you want to, at a price you dictate. This seems to be the attitude of many which is fueled by many clubs continually dropping their prices.

Clubs need consultants very badly as about 90% of Irish clubs are run very, very badly

neckedit

ShivasIrons wrote: »

There's a couple of points here, value and price are not the same thing, something cheap can be terrible value and something expensive can be great value.

Making golf more affordable is not a bad thing. The 'race to the bottom' has lead to a number of different problems.

Let's look at how golf clubs are funded. They're funded mainly through member subscriptions and in general the subscriptions are linked to how much it costs to run the club. Green fees are then sold for times when the clubs are less busy and are used to subsidize subscriptions.

A green fee should then be related to the subscription, i.e. a one time visitor to a club pays a premium for playing the club. This is subsidizing the subscription. So a quick example of what a green fee should be, if a club is €1000 for the year and the average player plays 40 times it's €25 per round. A green fee for this club should be at least €40-€50 or more depending on quality, location, scarcity etc.

The race to the bottom, however has lead clubs to believe that the only reason that golfers play their club is because of price and that reducing the price will lead to more golfers playing. This however is not true. The reason why golfers join a club or play a club is location, quality of the course, course conditioning, atmosphere in the club, whether their friends are there and then price comes along. It is a factor but it's down on the list of factors.

As clubs think it's the main factor they ignore the other more important factors leading to a decline in services and spending as income decreases. When a regular green fee is cheaper then the average round, members start to leave.

Having a lower and lower green fee makes the business model of a golf course less sustainable and will lead to courses eventually closing. So the 'race to the bottom' would be beneficial to the consumer in the short term in cheaper prices but detrimental in the long term as more facilities close and standards decline in others.

There's a course up the road from here that's available for €10 most days on golf now. They might as well shut it down, they're driving members away. Focus on the member experience, that's the sustainable model.

As for the leading golf courses here, they are charging the correct amount for their courses, otherwise they would be full. The GUI member rate that so many want is a bad idea. Why would you sell a time cheaper to someone who doesn't value it as much as another customer. If you think the course is worth playing, pay it, if not don't.

There's always playing as a guest of member, or a national competition, or scratch cup. Don't expect to play wherever you want to, whenever you want to, at a price you dictate. This seems to be the attitude of many which is fueled by many clubs continually dropping their prices.

Clubs need consultants very badly as about 90% of Irish clubs are run very, very badly

Well said.

kiers47

ShivasIrons wrote: »

There's a couple of points here, value and price are not the same thing, something cheap can be terrible value and something expensive can be great value.

This is probably the single best comment in this thread. Value doesn't necessarily mean a low price.

It is to simplistic to compare getting a reduced rate at 1 course to not getting one at another course and doesn't necessarily mean that one is less or more value than the other.

slingerz

boomtown84 wrote: »

There is a GUI rate for Open Competitions in most of the top courses in the country. Tralee and Ballybunion are only €50 to play. Played both their Junior Scratch Cups last year in the same weekend. Great value. You need to be quick to get on the time sheet though.

Quick edit: Played Mt. Juliet last week for €40 and you can play the Ryder course in the K Club most weeks for €60. European has/had a €50 deal too. Just need to keep an eye on golfnet.

this is a very valid comment. The scratch cups and random open days offered by the elite courses at a reasonable value just be commended and acknowledged by the GUI members from other clubs.

However, not all clubs host a scratch cup. I dont believe Lahinch host one, neither do Waterville or the Old Head to the best of my knowledge.

These clubs should not be afforded the opportunity to allow their members to play in GUI competitions and other clubs open days as a result IMO

kiers47

slingerz wrote: »

this is a very valid comment. The scratch cups and random open days offered by the elite courses at a reasonable value just be commended and acknowledged by the GUI members from other clubs.

However, not all clubs host a scratch cup. I dont believe Lahinch host one, neither do Waterville or the Old Head to the best of my knowledge.

These clubs should not be afforded the opportunity to allow their members to play in GUI competitions and other clubs open days as a result IMO

Im open to correction here but to my knowledge the Old Head are not in the GUI.

billy3sheets

kiers47 wrote: »

ShivasIrons wrote: »

There's a couple of points here, value and price are not the same thing, something cheap can be terrible value and something expensive can be great value.

This is probably the single best comment in this thread. Value doesn't necessarily mean a low price.

It is to simplistic to compare getting a reduced rate at 1 course to not getting one at another course and doesn't necessarily mean that one is less or more value than the other.

Yes but cheap and expensive are relative terms to everyone.
I would think there are not many golfers in Ireland who would consider any course over 100 euros as cheap or good value.

Kingswood Rover

benny79 wrote: »

Lads most clubs offer a gui rate if you ring and ask them. I was in Kerry on holidays 1 summer and got waterville for €65 in the middle of July 2 american lads that were behind me paid €180 each..

Petty the weather was terrible! it was like playing in a hurricane on the last few holes but enjoyed the experience

Yanks get screwed over here for green fees. If they looked in here they would run a mile.

backspin.

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Yanks get screwed over here for green fees. If they looked in here they would run a mile.

If they truly are being fleeced as it is reported here I'd love for the golf channel or some of the big golf magazines to report in it.

neckedit

backspin. wrote: »

If they truly are being fleeced as it is reported here I'd love for the golf channel or some of the big golf magazines to report in it.

Why?
What would thay achieve?
The golf tourism sector is worth in excess of 200million to the Irish economy. The in bound golf tourist spends nearly Double the normal tourist.
if we are speaking of American golfers, alot of them save for years to come here and between Ireland and Scotland they are ticking off the aul bucket list and they are here for the total experience. Others are here on the corporate Credit Card where money is no object, And others fly in on a budget and will play one marquee course, coupled with a few of our real hidden treasure. We have some of the best Golf Products in the world and we are exceptionally lucky to have them. If they want to play them at peak Times in high season, they pay for it and they don't seem to mind. We should not be ashamed of this, Have faith in you product.

fullstop

Anyone who would pay €150 for Seapoint, ever, needs their head examined.

prawnsambo

fullstop wrote: »

Anyone who would pay €150 for Seapoint, ever, needs their head examined.

Indeed. Considering you can get Druids Glen for the same day for €50.

neckedit

prawnsambo wrote: »

Indeed. Considering you can get Druids Glen for the same day for €50.

You may get an open for 50 in Druids.
But rarely a Sunday.

prawnsambo

neckedit wrote: »

You may get an open for 50 in Druids.
But rarely a Sunday.

I had just looked it up on teetimes. Available from €75 next Sunday from 12pm. Monday from €50.

neckedit

prawnsambo wrote: »

I had just looked it up on teetimes. Available from €75 next Sunday from 12pm. Monday from €50.

Cheapest I saw for the Glen Was 60 on Monday.
They have been running winter alliance over both courses for the last few months. Not played from Christmas but both tracks were in great Nick.

redzerdrog

As someone who has forked out for membership and yearly subs in Seapoint, I am delighted it is so expensive to play there at the weekend. If someone is going to eat into by ability to get on the timesheet I bloody hope they are paying through the nose for it. Sunday morning is prime time on the timesheet, generally there is one line or two booked off which is fine and if that is bringing in income fir the club that is fine. I would much rather one line being taken and that bringing in €600 than 3 lines taken up for the same price but impacting on me getting a round in.

As others have said there is an open every Tuesday all year round, there is also open weeks several times a year so seapoint are very inclusive for other gui members

mike12

Scotland has a residential rate for all its top courses, if we go we pay the rack rate same as the American tourists.
Think that it is fine in Ireland have played almost all the top courses and 50 to sixty quid is the most I've paid.
Do think if u are a club in the gui you should have to hold scratch cups at a minimum, would like to see the return of a proper open week.

Adiaga 2

neckedit wrote: »

Why?
What would thay achieve?
The golf tourism sector is worth in excess of 200million to the Irish economy.

So why risk it all by trying to fleece them?

neckedit wrote: »

they don't seem to mind

FFS

neckedit

Adiaga 2 wrote: »

So why risk it all by trying to fleece them?

Nothing is being risked!
We are not fleecing them, They see the value in our courses! it is your perception that these courses are expensive, Not theirs.

FFS

Look I can't afford to eat in Shannahan's on the Green, but I wouldn't suggest they have to lower there prices to suit me just because I have an annual subscription to "What Restaurant" magazine. And I absolutely wouldn't wish a "Big Magazine" do an expose on them and threaten the business.

Jawgap

Some clubs want to target a particular segment and goodluck to them if they can charge those kinds of prices and get enough people to pay - it's proof that price can create its own demand.......it's also proof that fools and their money are easily parted!

Personally, the clubs that irritate me are not the ones charging tourists ridiculous green fees, but the ones who seem to be wholly ideologically opposed to running the odd open comp.

Rumple Stillson

The best way to limit the number of rounds played on your course is to have a very high green fee. Some of the best clubs protect their courses in this way, particularly links, which don't tolerate traffic as well as parklands.

Adiaga 2

neckedit wrote: »

Look I can't afford to eat in Shannahan's on the Green, but I wouldn't suggest they have to lower there prices to suit me just because I have an annual subscription to "What Restaurant" magazine. And I absolutely wouldn't wish a "Big Magazine" do an expose on them and threaten the business.

Completely agree with you, but Seapoint isn't Shannahan's on the Green. It's a nice course and of course they can charge whatever they like. But €150 for a round there is ridiculous. Maybe €150 with lunch and transfer to your hotel.

fred funk }{

I don't get this. Clubs are free to charge whatever they bloody well want and they will live and die by those decisions.

Did someone suggest that all GUI affiliated clubs must have a special rate for GUI members? Jesus, heard it all now. So some lad who pays €100 distance membership for some sh1thole gets to play The European on a Sunday morning for €50? Don't think so.

What I do believe is that they should have a number of opens per year if they're connected to the GUI.

Rumple Stillson

fred funk }{ wrote: »

I don't get this. Clubs are free to charge whatever they bloody well want and they will live and die by those decisions.

Did someone suggest that all GUI affiliated clubs must have a special rate for GUI members? Jesus, heard it all now. So some lad who pays €100 distance membership for some sh1thole gets to play The European on a Sunday morning for €50? Don't think so.

What I do believe is that they should have a number of opens per year if they're connected to the GUI.

I'd maybe add to that all clubs should have a special rate for juniors, gotta get more kids involved in the game, letting them play some of the best courses might just help that.

Jawgap

neckedit wrote: »

Look I can't afford to eat in Shannahan's on the Green, but I wouldn't suggest they have to lower there prices to suit me just because I have an annual subscription to "What Restaurant" magazine. And I absolutely wouldn't wish a "Big Magazine" do an expose on them and threaten the business.

Except Shanahan's is part of the RAI, Euro-toques etc they have - and participate in - various industry related events where chefs etc do go and eat cheaply or even for free (I know, I've been with the Da!!)

You're analogy is a bit skewed - no one expects a discount from a club because they subscribe to a golf magazine, but given that clubs are part of the GUI and benefit from being part of a wider organisation into which we all contribute (if you're a club member), they should be willing to reciprocate by having the odd open comp.

Likewise, if I rock up to any restaurtant I'd expect to pay the face price, but that doesn't mean they don't offer reciprocal arrangements to those who are part of their wider sector.

thewobbler

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

benny79 wrote: »

Lads most clubs offer a gui rate if you ring and ask them. I was in Kerry on holidays 1 summer and got waterville for €65 in the middle of July 2 american lads that were behind me paid €180 each..

Petty the weather was terrible! it was like playing in a hurricane on the last few holes but enjoyed the experience

Yanks get screwed over here for green fees. If they looked in here they would run a mile.

Yanks don’t get fleeced here. The cost for playing bucket list links courses is lower than Scotland and England.

I’ve no problem with high season pricing in Ireland.

Ronney

Just out of curiosity what discount do people think should be offered to GUI members off the Rack rate?

mike12

fred funk }{ wrote: »

I don't get this. Clubs are free to charge whatever they bloody well want and they will live and die by those decisions.

Did someone suggest that all GUI affiliated clubs must have a special rate for GUI members? Jesus, heard it all now. So some lad who pays €100 distance membership for some sh1thole gets to play The European on a Sunday morning for €50? Don't think so.

What I do believe is that they should have a number of opens per year if they're connected to the GUI.

They can the European have a gui rate.

Kingswood Rover

backspin. wrote: »

If they truly are being fleeced as it is reported here I'd love for the golf channel or some of the big golf magazines to report in it.

The lets fleece the yanks, and tbh its all supposedly wealthy tourists attitude is embarrassing. Clubs doing distance/minor memberships could show some real hospitality and generate much needed income for themselves by offering packages that included membership in a affiliated GUI club for the year, 3 free rounds if you needed a handicap or assist the transfer your handicap from your home country/club.

neckedit

Jawgap wrote: »

Except Shanahan's is part of the RAI, Euro-toques etc they have - and participate in - various industry related events where chefs etc do go and eat cheaply or even for free (I know, I've been with the Da!!)

You're analogy is a bit skewed - no one expects a discount from a club because they subscribe to a golf magazine, but given that clubs are part of the GUI and benefit from being part of a wider organisation into which we all contribute (if you're a club member), they should be willing to reciprocate by having the odd open comp.

Likewise, if I rock up to any restaurtant I'd expect to pay the face price, but that doesn't mean they don't offer reciprocal arrangements to those who are part of their wider sector.

my analogy is that the GUI fee is only €25 per member , €28 for ILGU, why should such a modest fee enable you to demand lower prices? The Majority of courses have opens or scratch cups and the likes that offer the course at discounted rates already. And as I said before alot of the courses do have reciprocal deals with others. And yes when you work in the golf industry you also can avail of special rates for a lot of the courses, just like your Father in the restaurant industry,but that is not the discussion.

Kingswood Rover

Ronney wrote: »

Just out of curiosity what discount do people think should be offered to GUI members off the Rack rate?

Nothing green fee's should be the same for everyone no matter where you are from. Entry fees for open events should be the same. But what happens in this country so often is i roll up for a green fee with a couple of pals on a nice links on the east coast pay the rate the guys asks and then as we are looking around the pro shop tourists from the US, Japan, Germany out a couple of groups behind us wherever pay substantially more.

shamco

neckedit wrote: »

Jawgap wrote: »

Except Shanahan's is part of the RAI, Euro-toques etc they have - and participate in - various industry related events where chefs etc do go and eat cheaply or even for free (I know, I've been with the Da!!)

You're analogy is a bit skewed - no one expects a discount from a club because they subscribe to a golf magazine, but given that clubs are part of the GUI and benefit from being part of a wider organisation into which we all contribute (if you're a club member), they should be willing to reciprocate by having the odd open comp.

Likewise, if I rock up to any restaurtant I'd expect to pay the face price, but that doesn't mean they don't offer reciprocal arrangements to those who are part of their wider sector.

my analogy is that the GUI fee is only €25 per member , €28 for ILGU, why should such a modest fee enable you to demand lower prices?  The Majority of courses have opens or scratch cups and the likes that offer the course at discounted rates already. And as I said before alot of the courses do have reciprocal deals with others. And yes when you work in the golf industry you also can avail of special rates for a lot of the courses, just like your Father in the restaurant industry,but that is not the discussion.

Yes but what do I get for my €25 GUI fee?

prawnsambo

shamco wrote: »

Yes but what do I get for my €25 GUI fee?

I'm actually unsure of this, because I've never done it, but can you enter an open competition without a GUI membership?

ThunderCat

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Yanks get screwed over here for green fees. If they looked in here they would run a mile.

I don't think they do to be honest. We have some of the very best courses in the World here. Most comparable courses in the states do not allow visitors at all and the ones that do allow visitors charge considerably more than what the top clubs here do. I think we are lucky to be able to play them at all. If you were to reverse the scenario and you were allowed to play Augusta or Pebble Beach for 200 quid no-one would think that was excessive. Our top courses are comparable to those.

RoadRunner

Argh the contradictions! This thread has it all.

-green fees are too high
-we have some of the best courses in the world
-I should be able to play these best courses for cheap with my gui membership
-but why should the yanks have to more than me
-why don't courses want to make more money by slashing their fees

Very frustrating read.

prawnsambo

Just looking at a random selection from the world's top twenty courses.

1. Pine Valley - Only with a member
2. Cypress Point - $250 + Caddie
3. St. Andrews Old - £88 - £180
4. Royal County Down - £185 - £200
5. Augusta National - Almost impossible
6. Shinnecock Hills - $360 (reportedly)
7. National GLA NY - Is this even possible?
8. Oakmont - Seems almost impossible
9. Pebble Beach - $495 - $525
10. Muirfield - £110 - £235
11. Royal Melbourne - $AUS 550
12. Pinehurst #2 - $365 - $445
13. Royal Portrush - £70 - £205
14. Whisting Straits - $410 + Caddie
15. TPC Sawgrass - $395 - $549
16. Ballybunion Old - €210

Some of the above were hard to find and I had to rely on third party data. NGLA have a one page website with a login for members only. Price ranges are for off and on seasons.

Jawgap

neckedit wrote: »

my analogy is that the GUI fee is only €25 per member , €28 for ILGU, why should such a modest fee enable you to demand lower prices? The Majority of courses have opens or scratch cups and the likes that offer the course at discounted rates already. And as I said before alot of the courses do have reciprocal deals with others. And yes when you work in the golf industry you also can avail of special rates for a lot of the courses, just like your Father in the restaurant industry,but that is not the discussion.

The majority of courses do, and I'm not demanding anything.

I think there should be a degree of reciprocity.......clubs that don't run a certain minimum number of opens (say 4 per year) should not expect to see their members being allowed to participate in other clubs opens.

Clubs are quite entitled to set their own green fees and their own competition schedules etc but if they don't "give" why should they expect to get in terms of access to other courses.

Jawgap

Ronney wrote: »

Just out of curiosity what discount do people think should be offered to GUI members off the Rack rate?

My own view is that GUI membership should not entitle you to any discount as a walk-up, but clubs should run some minimum level of opens.

prawnsambo

Jawgap wrote: »

My own view is that GUI membership should not entitle you to any discount as a walk-up, but clubs should run some minimum level of opens.

That was my point above about what GUI membership gives you. It's a useful perk if all clubs participate, even in a limited capacity.

But even though it's only €25, you can't get it without membership of a club, so there's an additional cost there too.

ThunderCat

prawnsambo wrote: »

Just looking at a random selection from the world's top twenty courses.

1. Pine Valley - Only with a member
2. Cypress Point - $250 + Caddie
3. St. Andrews Old - £88 - £180
4. Royal County Down - £185 - £200
5. Augusta National - Almost impossible
6. Shinnecock Hills - $360 (reportedly)
7. National GLA NY - Is this even possible?
8. Oakmont - Seems almost impossible
9. Pebble Beach - $495 - $525
10. Muirfield - £110 - £235
11. Royal Melbourne - $AUS 550
12. Pinehurst #2 - $365 - $445
13. Royal Portrush - £70 - £205
14. Whisting Straits - $410 + Caddie
15. TPC Sawgrass - $395 - $549
16. Ballybunion Old - €210

Some of the above were hard to find and I had to rely on third party data. NGLA have a one page website with a login for members only. Price ranges are for off and on seasons.

The ones in bold are members and their guests only aswell.

Ronney

ThunderCat wrote: »

The ones in bold are members and their guests only aswell.

Golf in America can be very Expensive,

A non tour Hotel course can be €200+

A mate of mine Caddies over in Riveria where The PGA tour is on this week. The way these Country Club type places work is the member pays for everything on a tab bar Caddie tips (Additional to Caddie Fees)

It would be common enough for a member to bring out 3 guests and after Fees, Caddies, Drinks, Dinner etc to be spending €3,000-5,000 in a day


On Talk of Ripping off Yanks they do the exact same to us to some extent. Non residents of NY or San Diego would pay double that of Residents at Bethpage Black or Torrey Pines.

neckedit

Ronney wrote: »

Golf in America can be very Expensive,

A non tour Hotel course can be €200+

A mate of mine Caddies over in Riveria where The PGA tour is on this week. The way these Country Club type places work is the member pays for everything on a tab bar Caddie tips (Additional to Caddie Fees)

It would be common enough for a member to bring out 3 guests and after Fees, Caddies, Drinks, Dinner etc to be spending €3,000-5,000 in a day


On Talk of Ripping off Yanks they do the exact same to us to some extent. Non residents of NY or San Diego would pay double that of Residents at Bethpage Black or Torrey Pines.

My Pal played there last year, wrangled it through work.... got a Freebie... but still paid for Caddies... Visitor Gf $675... you must take a caddy.... $150.... and I believe he said ordinarily you must play with one of the Pro's.... $250. now... that's serious money.

ShivasIrons

Can someone explain why a club that is full should charge less so someone who doesn’t want to pay the full fee can play it?

Does Mercedes, Rolex, Gucci, Prada, Bentley do this?

Why should one of the top 100 courses in the world do it?

prawnsambo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Can someone explain why a club that is full should charge less so someone who doesn’t want to pay the full fee can play it?

Does Mercedes, Rolex, Gucci, Prada, Bentley do this?

Why should one of the top 100 courses in the world do it?

I don't think Gucci's pricing is based on supply and demand.

But most people here seem to be saying that if a club's members are availing of reduced green fees for open competitions at other clubs, there sould be a minimum reciprocal arrangement at their home club. Which I think is fair enough.

I also doubt very much if Seapoint has a full timesheet every day - in fact the availability on teetimes seems to suggest the opposite. But their pricing strategy could well be aimed at discouraging visitors in order to keep the course in top shape for the members. And that's fair enough too.

PARlance

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Can someone explain why a club that is full should charge less so someone who doesn’t want to pay the full fee can play it?

Does Mercedes, Rolex, Gucci, Prada, Bentley do this?

Why should one of the top 100 courses in the world do it?

I don't think anyone is going to start blowing up greens in the middle of the night.

In general (nice segue even if I do say so myself), I agree that clubs should set their prices as they so wish.

I also think it's understandable for people to look at an "average" club setting "premium" rates and question it. In nothing more than a "that's a bit odd/nuts isn't it" sense.

I also think it's understandable for "local" Irish people to look at the likes of Ballybunion and say ~€200 is a bit nuts. Yes, it's in line/much less with other top courses in the world... but full membership is ~€450 per year in Ballybunion, that's not in line with other top courses in the World. Yes, there's a waiting list and a relatively modest joining fee (€7000 I think)...but once you're in, you're in. Most members will be paying less than €1,000 pa over their lifecycle, if you want to factor in that joining fee.

Some of the courses in the States that are being listed cost over €100,000 p.a so it's not exactly like for like in that sense. Not that there's any hard and fast rules on what green fees to charge. But there's no Rolex dealership on Main St Ballybunion, Tralee doesn't have a Bentley dealership and Abbeydorney doesn't have a Gucci store. It's far more palatable for a Course outside New York to be charging $5,000 a round... it makes more sense with a city with double the population of Ireland on it's doorstep. And a whole lot more wealth per capita.

Hank isn't going to be looking for a €60 green fee on a course that would cost Curtis €100,000 per year. Jimmy might be more justified in thinking that €60 is about right if Paddy is getting it for €450 p.a.

Clubs should charge what they want but most clubs should also look after "locals" too imo. Ballybunion does this. Most Irish course do. I've no real complaints at all, just putting forward a different angle on things.

Great value in Ireland, even at the higher end... you'll find a member if you want to, you'll get out for an Open / Event if you want to.

ShivasIrons

prawnsambo wrote: »

I don't think Gucci's pricing is based on supply and demand.

But most people here seem to be saying that if a club's members are availing of reduced green fees for open competitions at other clubs, there sould be a minimum reciprocal arrangement at their home club. Which I think is fair enough.

I also doubt very much if Seapoint has a full timesheet every day - in fact the availability on teetimes seems to suggest the opposite. But their pricing strategy could well be aimed at discouraging visitors in order to keep the course in top shape for the members. And that's fair enough too.

The GUI has a requirement that member clubs make their course available to the GUI for GUI competitions which they all do.

So we see the Jimmy Bruen on in Ballybunion or the Junior Cup in the K Club, the Irish Close in RCD etc. Also the South is on in Lahinch, North in Portrush etc.

The best courses in Ireland are made available. They contribute massively to golf in Ireland. Bigger contributions then most.

To suggest that they have open competitions and sell their course for less then they normally would get on that day as a service to Irish Golf is ridiculous. They do more then enough already. If someone wants to play them, pay the full fee, they’re worth it. If you want to play there everyday become a member.

golfguy1

PARlance wrote: »

I don't think anyone is going to start blowing up greens in the middle of the night.

In general (nice segue even if I do say so myself), I agree that clubs should set their prices as they so wish.

I also think it's understandable for people to look at an "average" club setting "premium" rates and question it. In nothing more than a "that's a bit odd/nuts isn't it" sense.

I also think it's understandable for "local" Irish people to look at the likes of Ballybunion and say ~€200 is a bit nuts. Yes, it's in line/much less with other top courses in the world... but full membership is ~€450 per year in Ballybunion, that's not in line with other top courses in the World. Yes, there's a waiting list and a relatively modest joining fee (€7000 I think)...but once you're in, you're in. Most members will be paying less than €1,000 pa over their lifecycle, if you want to factor in that joining fee.

Some of the courses in the States that are being listed cost over €100,000 p.a so it's not exactly like for like in that sense. Not that there's any hard and fast rules on what green fees to charge. But there's no Rolex dealership on Main St Ballybunion, Tralee doesn't have a Bentley dealership and Abbeydorney doesn't have a Gucci store. It's far more palatable for a Course outside New York to be charging $5,000 a round... it makes more sense with a city with double the population of Ireland on it's doorstep. And a whole lot more wealth per capita.

Hank isn't going to be looking for a €60 green fee on a course that would cost Curtis €100,000 per year. Jimmy might be more justified in thinking that €60 is about right if Paddy is getting it for €450 p.a.

Clubs should charge what they want but most clubs should also look after "locals" too imo. Ballybunion does this. Most Irish course do. I've no real complaints at all, just putting forward a different angle on things.

Great value in Ireland, even at the higher end... you'll find a member if you want to, you'll get out for an Open / Event if you want to.

The reason ballybunion and other top courses membership is so cheap per annum is due yo the fact u can't get out before 3/4pm most days during the summer season. I know members in tralee who rarely play due to the amount of greenfees on the course from may-october

prawnsambo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

To suggest that they have open competitions and sell their course for less then they normally would get on that day as a service to Irish Golf is ridiculous. They do more then enough already. If someone wants to play them, pay the full fee, they’re worth it. If you want to play there everyday become a member.

Please by all means take issue with what I actually said. :rolleyes:

FixdePitchmark

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Can someone explain why a club that is full should charge less so someone who doesn’t want to pay the full fee can play it?

Does Mercedes, Rolex, Gucci, Prada, Bentley do this?

Why should one of the top 100 courses in the world do it?

Because - a golf club in Ireland has a different identity. It is not just about profit, typically. Local community in Ireland is not about an elite world brand - like the ones mentioned.

Irish towns and communities are fairly small - the tourist season is fairly short.

The local golf club - was/is an integral part of the community - a location where the local builder plays golf with the solicitor and the doctor and the mechanic play golf together and he looks after the doctor's car. It isn't straight forward. Irish golf clubs are run on a considerable amount of good will and volunteerism. They hold funerals, baptisms, weddings, charity events for local people, not all members.

I'm not naive saying that there is not a class element in Ireland around golf - but there is a different dynamic going on here. I like the Irish model - and the stuff around the exclusive country club in America is a bit distasteful to be honest.

In America - cash is king - and the fee is what you can pay. Paying a fee is a statement. The population around the golf clubs are 10 times the amount.
The tipping culture and openly flashing money - would be laughed at here and would not be the done thing.

But the local GAA lad and the the local bar man is not going to go out and pay 400 euro to play his local club. Golf clubs here are very small communities - Isolating your local community is a big jump - changing your approach for a couple of yanks in July and August is not going to work all year round.

There are a couple of courses I can think of, that have totally isolated themselves from the local community likes of.

Portmarnock
Old Head
Doonbeg
K club

They are the exception - and there is very little warmth towards them.

golfguy1

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Because - a golf club in Ireland has a different identity. It is not just about profit, typically. Local community in Ireland is not about an elite world brand - like the ones mentioned.

Irish towns and communities are fairly small - the tourist season is fairly short.

The local golf club - was/is an integral part of the community - a location where the local builder plays golf with the solicitor and the doctor and the mechanic play golf together and he looks after the doctor's car. It isn't straight forward. Irish golf clubs are run on a considerable amount of good will and volunteerism. They hold funerals, baptisms, weddings, charity events for local people, not all members.

I'm not naive saying that there is not a class element in Ireland around golf - but there is a different dynamic going on here. I like the Irish model - and the stuff around the exclusive country club in America is a bit distasteful to be honest.

In America - cash is king - and the fee is what you can pay. Paying a fee is a statement. The population around the golf clubs are 10 times the amount.
The tipping culture and openly flashing money - would be laughed at here and would not be the done thing.

But the local GAA lad and the the local bar man is not going to go out and pay 400 euro to play his local club. Golf clubs here are very small communities - Isolating your local community is a big jump - changing your approach for a couple of yanks in July and August is not going to work all year round.

There are a couple of courses I can think of, that have totally isolated themselves from the local community likes of.

Portmarnock
Old Head
Doonbeg
K club

They are the exception - and there is very little warmth towards them.

I'm pretty sure portmarnock old head doonbeg and the k club are worried about the warmth towards them. They are making money which is the most important thing for a golf club now.
What good is the "warmth" for all the struggling golf clubs.
I would love my club to be able to make money like them so club could reinvest in course to improve it for members and visitors