Green fees: how do we stop the golf consultants ruining golf?

Johnny_Fontane

golfguy1 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure portmarnock old head doonbeg and the k club are worried about the warmth towards them. They are making money which is the most important thing for a golf club now.
What good is the "warmth" for all the struggling golf clubs.
I would love my club to be able to make money like them so club could reinvest in course to improve it for members and visitors

the bottom line really is that these clubs (and add in RCD, RP, Ballyb, Waterville) are taking in more than 1.5m in green fee revenue and most clubs in ireland probably struggle to get to €100,000 in green fees.

Its like any business, to get to the top, you need to have something special. And that in Ireland is our links golf. Nobody is really going to fork out big to play parkland. I'd be surprised even in Mount Juliet or the K Club if their golf course made a substantial profit, compared with the top links courses.

Theres a massive gulf between those at the top (of which I would say there might be 20 courses taking €750,000 in green fees) and everything else. Its a numbers game at the end of the day.

FixdePitchmark

golfguy1 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure portmarnock old head doonbeg and the k club are worried about the warmth towards them. They are making money which is the most important thing for a golf club now.
What good is the "warmth" for all the struggling golf clubs.
I would love my club to be able to make money like them so club could reinvest in course to improve it for members and visitors

True - but that "warmth" is needed if you are in the middle of Offaly with a town with about 3000 people and 1/4 of them are members.

Yes the clubs mentioned don't care - but ones like that are very rare on Ireland less than 5%.

slingerz

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Because - a golf club in Ireland has a different identity. It is not just about profit, typically. Local community in Ireland is not about an elite world brand - like the ones mentioned.

Irish towns and communities are fairly small - the tourist season is fairly short.

The local golf club - was/is an integral part of the community - a location where the local builder plays golf with the solicitor and the doctor and the mechanic play golf together and he looks after the doctor's car. It isn't straight forward. Irish golf clubs are run on a considerable amount of good will and volunteerism. They hold funerals, baptisms, weddings, charity events for local people, not all members.

I'm not naive saying that there is not a class element in Ireland around golf - but there is a different dynamic going on here. I like the Irish model - and the stuff around the exclusive country club in America is a bit distasteful to be honest.

In America - cash is king - and the fee is what you can pay. Paying a fee is a statement. The population around the golf clubs are 10 times the amount.
The tipping culture and openly flashing money - would be laughed at here and would not be the done thing.

But the local GAA lad and the the local bar man is not going to go out and pay 400 euro to play his local club. Golf clubs here are very small communities - Isolating your local community is a big jump - changing your approach for a couple of yanks in July and August is not going to work all year round.

There are a couple of courses I can think of, that have totally isolated themselves from the local community likes of.

Portmarnock
Old Head
Doonbeg
K club

They are the exception - and there is very little warmth towards them.

While i agree with the sentiment of your post i played Doonbeg a few weeks back and found that the locals had no issue with the course

golfguy1

slingerz wrote: »

While i agree with the sentiment of your post i played Doonbeg a few weeks back and found that the locals had no issue with the course

The locals in most towns/villages where these links courses are, must be delighted with them as they bring a lot of money/jobs to the area with little or no downsides to their existence

Dublin Spur

Slightly off topic but members of clubs that don't run any open comps should be excluded in playing in other clubs open competitions.

It can't be right that a member from Portmarnock GC (for example) can compete in my club's SCR but I don't get the opportunity to compete in theirs, because they chose not to have one.

The issue is not complicated and its easy to fix, so come on GUI, do the right thing and brig some balance into the game.

golfguy1

Dublin Spur wrote: »

Slightly off topic but members of clubs that don't run any open comps should be excluded in playing in other clubs open competitions.

It can't be right that a member from Portmarnock GC (for example) can compete in my club's SCR but I don't get the opportunity to compete in theirs, because they chose not to have one

The issue is not and its easy to fix, so come on GUI, do the right thing and brig some balance into the game.

Can't agree with you.
Each club should be allowed to run their business as they see fit. Not every club runs a senior scratch cup and rightly so. My club does so by your thinking I should have the option to play a senior scratch cup at every other club just because one chooses to host one.

FixdePitchmark

slingerz wrote: »

While i agree with the sentiment of your post i played Doonbeg a few weeks back and found that the locals had no issue with the course

Yes, I think they got off to a bad start - but the crash brought it down a peg or two.

But - don't know how locals feels about the place at this point.

FixdePitchmark

golfguy1 wrote: »

Can't agree with you.
Each club should be allowed to run their business as they see fit. Not every club runs a senior scratch cup and rightly so. My club does so by your thinking I should have the option to play a senior scratch cup at every other club just because one chooses to host one.

To put simple - clubs that don't have opens - shouldn't be allowed into another clubs.

Dublin Spur

golfguy1 wrote: »

Can't agree with you.
Each club should be allowed to run their business as they see fit. Not every club runs a senior scratch cup and rightly so. My club does so by your thinking I should have the option to play a senior scratch cup at every other club just because one chooses to host one.

Each to their own but I think there's a gap.

There are only a handful of clubs don't run opens EVER. These clubs are totally out of kilter with the rest of the country and should be insensitivsed to change their tune.

Just to be clear, I'm not looking for a cheap round on one of these courses, I have friends that are members and I can play them reasonably cheaply. Its the principle that irks me.

Dublin Spur

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

To put simple - clubs that don't have opens - shouldn't be allowed into another clubs.

as simple as that

Johnny_Fontane

My club doesn't have opens, I've brought it up with a committee member and he replied that we have 'semi opens'. Asked him would it not be worth having a bank holiday Monday in May like say Tralee (Monday 19th march people!), but he said that the older members don't want it (seems to be the committee's answer for everything). Bottom line is that they don't need to do it. I will bring it up again though, next time I'm at a meeting.

I play opens in other courses, great way to play courses in their peak condition, but not sure its fair to penalise people that way, nor would they.

Kingswood Rover

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

My club doesn't have opens, I've brought it up with a committee member and he replied that we have 'semi opens'. Asked him would it not be worth having a bank holiday Monday in May like say Tralee (Monday 19th march people!), but he said that the older members don't want it (seems to be the committee's answer for everything). Bottom line is that they don't need to do it. I will bring it up again though, next time I'm at a meeting.

I play opens in other courses, great way to play courses in their peak condition, but not sure its fair to penalize people that way, nor would they.

What club is that? and fair play for advocating for a proper open or 2,personally i would not be in favor of banning members from clubs that do not have opens from playing in other clubs opens, 2 wrongs and all that. I think the GUI could impress upon such clubs the having opens is a something that the union feels is expected from all affiliated clubs.

Dublin Spur

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

My club doesn't have opens, I've brought it up with a committee member and he replied that we have 'semi opens'. Asked him would it not be worth having a bank holiday Monday in May like say Tralee (Monday 19th march people!), but he said that the older members don't want it (seems to be the committee's answer for everything). Bottom line is that they don't need to do it. I will bring it up again though, next time I'm at a meeting.

I play opens in other courses, great way to play courses in their peak condition, but not sure its fair to penalise people that way, nor would they.

I agree, 2 wrongs don't make a right

I also think the clubs in question would probably change their policy if the rule was brought in. As it stands there is no incentive.

ShivasIrons

Dublin Spur wrote: »

Slightly off topic but members of clubs that don't run any open comps should be excluded in playing in other clubs open competitions.

It can't be right that a member from Portmarnock GC (for example) can compete in my club's SCR but I don't get the opportunity to compete in theirs, because they chose not to have one.

The issue is not complicated and its easy to fix, so come on GUI, do the right thing and brig some balance into the game.

The requirement is that clubs make their courses available for GUI competitions and all clubs do.

Johnny_Fontane

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

What club is that? and fair play for advocating for a proper open or 2,personally i would not be in favor of banning members from clubs that do not have opens from playing in other clubs opens, 2 wrongs and all that. I think the GUI could impress upon such clubs the having opens is a something that the union feels is expected from all affiliated clubs.

I'll actually bring this up again with one of the committee members to see if there is any fresh appetite. I'm in the Island.

Kingswood Rover

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

I'll actually bring this up again with one of the committee members to see if there is any fresh appetite. I'm in the Island.

Ah a smashing place, i have played several times with the fruit traders golf society, always though they had opens mind.

tayto lover

thewobbler wrote: »

First of all, I don't expect cheap golf on quality courses. And I do expect that the market should determine the price, and not what I'm willing to pay.

But having scanned tee times for the coming weekend, a weekend which I must point out is in the middle of February, Seapoint are looking for €150pp for a Sunday morning tee time.

I can only assume a golf consultant has paid them a visit, and advised them about the now Fionn mac Cumhaill style story whereby Golf Links A was struggling to attract American visitors, until they cleverly trebled their prices overnight, at which point they'd a queue of price-equates-to-prestige-minded Yanks at their door. I call it Golf Links A as I've heard the same story about Ardglass, Castlerock, Ballyliffin, Portmarnock Links and Portsalon. It might even be a true story for some of them; for I've noticed that little old Kirkistown went down a similar route last winter.

As mentioned, I've no qualms with market rates.

But I'm going to make an assumption that Irish people won't pay €150 for a round of golf in February. And another one that the volume of American golf tourists in Ireland during February would comfortably fit in a single minibus.

So, can we possibly start spreading out a rumour (one which hopefully our golf travel consultants pick up upon, and turn into one of their rules) that golf courses really need to price according to the seasons?

We were advised to do the same in Greenore. Thankfully we declined.

tayto lover

prawnsambo wrote: »

I just had a look on teetimes and these are the rates for Seapoint at the moment:

Monday - Thursday: €80
Friday: €100
Saturday: €120
Sunday: €150

Seapoint is the only course in County Louth offering bookings on teetimes. So pretty much in a monopoly situation on the site.

Seapoint has huge debts and a big drop in members.
They are next door (Adjoining) Baltray who attract large numbers of American and Japanese golfers at huge green fees.
They are just trying to piggy-back on all this because they need to.

ShivasIrons

The golfers looking for open competitions at every course, really should be saying what they mean, which is we want to play the best courses at highly discounted rates, because I'm pretty sure if Portmarnock, as an example, had an open competition at their standard rate of €225 or Winter rate of €145 they would be not happy with that either

Jawgap

ShivasIrons wrote: »

The golfers looking for open competitions at every course, really should be saying what they mean, which is we want to play the best courses at highly discounted rates, because I'm pretty sure if Portmarnock, as an example, had an open competition at their standard rate of €225 or Winter rate of €145 they would be not happy with that either

If clubs don't want to run opens then fair enough - that's their perogative, but then maybe the members of those clubs should be as restricted as they are restrictive, and be excluded from participating in opens elsewhere.

It's a bit cheeky to expect to play in opens when your club doesn't run them

FixdePitchmark

ShivasIrons wrote: »

The golfers looking for open competitions at every course, really should be saying what they mean, which is we want to play the best courses at highly discounted rates, because I'm pretty sure if Portmarnock, as an example, had an open competition at their standard rate of €225 or Winter rate of €145 they would be not happy with that either

This is often used in these threads - but it misses the point.

I've paid full rack rate myself and it being an open or not won't stop me playing all the Links in Ireland.

But it is just good manners to welcome people to your course if you are receiving that same welcome at their course.

In America "the capital of capitalism" - there is a local rate.

It is not a big ask to have a couple of opens a year - winter at a higher rate than a typical open - but rack rate is daft.

These clubs are in the same union - there is a spirit and intent in that.

One of the best clubs in the country The European does it. Pat Ruddy is a gentleman and has common sense about it.

If you open up your doors to others - there is a common Irish decency in reciprocation.

Accusation of people who complain as penny pinchers is the sort of attitude that perhaps perpetuates the wrong.

I'd be probably lowering to their level - but would strongly consider a ban on these clubs from Opens.

ShivasIrons

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

This is often used in these threads - but it misses the point.

I've paid full rack rate myself and it being an open or not won't stop me playing all the Links in Ireland.

But it is just good manners to welcome people to your course if you are receiving that same welcome at their course.

In America "the capital of capitalism" - there is a local rate.

It is not a big ask to have a couple of opens a year - winter at a higher rate than a typical open - but rack rate is daft.

These clubs are in the same union - there is a spirit and intent in that.

One of the best clubs in the country The European does it. Pat Ruddy is a gentleman and has common sense about it.

If you open up your doors to others - there is a common Irish decency in reciprocation.

Accusation of people who complain as penny pinchers is the sort of attitude that perhaps perpetuates the wrong.

I'd be probably lowering to their level - but would strongly consider a ban on these clubs from Opens.

There is not a local rate at most clubs in the US. There is a local rate at municipal courses which in some cases are funded with local tax dollars, the locals are already subsidising the club with their taxes and get a break on green fees as a result.

Most of the comparable courses in the US to Ballybunion, RCD etc don't allow access to anyone unless you're the guest of a member. Here there is no club you can't play next week. Just pay the fee.

Each one of the great clubs here has contributed to the GUI more then 80% of the other clubs combined.

Does anyone think that members of Ballybunion, Lahinch, RCD, Portrush, Portmarnock etc would be bothered if they were banned from playing in open competitions? Imagine not being able to play an open in Donabate because you were a member in the Island. I'm sure they'd leave in their droves.

Jawgap

ShivasIrons wrote: »

There is not a local rate at most clubs in the US. There is a local rate at municipal courses which in some cases are funded with local tax dollars, the locals are already subsidising the club with their taxes and get a break on green fees as a result.

Most of the comparable courses in the US to Ballybunion, RCD etc don't allow access to anyone unless you're the guest of a member. Here there is no club you can't play next week. Just pay the fee.

Each one of the great clubs here has contributed to the GUI more then 80% of the other clubs combined.

Does anyone think that members of Ballybunion, Lahinch, RCD, Portrush, Portmarnock etc would be bothered if they were banned from playing in open competitions? Imagine not being able to play an open in Donabate because you were a member in the Island. I'm sure they'd leave in their droves.

I play golf in the States regularly, and colleagues and friends from there play here when they're over.

To a person they rave about the availability of open comps we have here. It's a bit disingenuous of a selection of clubs to benefit from that vibrant element of our golfing culture without contributing.

And yes, I doubt the members of certain clubs would miss playing in other clubs' opens so nothing is really lost by denying them opportunities their clubs readily deny others.

FixdePitchmark

ShivasIrons wrote: »

There is not a local rate at most clubs in the US. There is a local rate at municipal courses which in some cases are funded with local tax dollars, the locals are already subsidising the club with their taxes and get a break on green fees as a result.

Most of the comparable courses in the US to Ballybunion, RCD etc don't allow access to anyone unless you're the guest of a member. Here there is no club you can't play next week. Just pay the fee.

Each one of the great clubs here has contributed to the GUI more then 80% of the other clubs combined.

Does anyone think that members of Ballybunion, Lahinch, RCD, Portrush, Portmarnock etc would be bothered if they were banned from playing in open competitions? Imagine not being able to play an open in Donabate because you were a member in the Island. I'm sure they'd leave in their droves.

I think you would be surprised how many people would be disappointed or have to consider the issue.

There are senior opens on in most clubs every week and they are packed out the door with people from every background and club. I've played in opens with members from some of the clubs mentioned.

I don't think anyone is saying they would leave such good courses.
It would be problematic if they were removed from GUI totally.

Don't get the point about putting down Donabate. But there are 100s of excellent courses with fantastic events on every week.

At the end of the day we all play golf in Ireland - that is why we are in the same union.

The attitudes of these clubs is behind the times and behind the vision of golf in Ireland

This is part of the Confederation Golf Ireland - vision 2020.

"A strong perception of golf as an open and accessible public sport"

CGI are trying to change the game - and if these clubs maintain their old attitudes - GUI is not for them.

So leave or be removed.

ShivasIrons

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I think you would be surprised how many people would be disappointed or have to consider the issue.

There are senior opens on in most clubs every week and they are packed out the door with people from every background and club. I've played in opens with members from some of the clubs mentioned.

I don't think anyone is saying they would leave such good courses.
It would be problematic if they were removed from GUI totally.

Don't get the point about putting down Donabate. But there are 100s of excellent courses with fantastic events on every week.

At the end of the day we all play golf in Ireland - that is why we are in the same union.

The attitudes of these clubs is behind the times and behind the vision of golf in Ireland

This is part of the Confederation Golf Ireland - vision 2020.

"A strong perception of golf as an open and accessible public sport"

CGI are trying to change the game - and if these clubs maintain their old attitudes - GUI is not for them.

So leave or be removed.

You want the clubs who have contributed the most to the GUI to be removed from it?

Having cheap regular open events at clubs devalues membership at a club. A €15 open at a €1000 makes membership look expensive and members leave. Golf in Ireland needs thriving clubs more then it needs nomads.

ShivasIrons

Jawgap wrote: »

I play golf in the States regularly, and colleagues and friends from there play here when they're over.

To a person they rave about the availability of open comps we have here. It's a bit disingenuous of a selection of clubs to benefit from that vibrant element of our golfing culture without contributing.

And yes, I doubt the members of certain clubs would miss playing in other clubs' opens so nothing is really lost by denying them opportunities their clubs readily deny others.

No club in Ireland denies access to any golfer who wants to play there. It is not the role of the members at those clubs to subsidize other golfers playing there by having massively discounted open competitions.

FixdePitchmark

ShivasIrons wrote: »

You want the clubs who have contributed the most to the GUI to be removed from it?

Having cheap regular open events at clubs devalues membership at a club. A €15 open at a €1000 makes membership look expensive and members leave. Golf in Ireland needs thriving clubs more then it needs nomads.

Again - no one is asking for 15 euro opens.

The GUI and professionals working in this area think the game needs to change.

If you go to Ballybunion (has opens) , the place is a hive of activity - there is a considerable family atmosphere - and an incredible welcome.

I've been to the older stuffy clubs - and I think their model doesn't fit anymore.

Society has change - family has changed - relationships have changed.

It is an attitude thing really.

I've even spoken to managers of these clubs and they themselves said the clubs will have to change - but it will be a long slow process.

I've been to clubs that have changed and they are fantastic places - where there is hope for the game of golf. These other places are not doing anything for the game - they are doing it for themselves in dark corridors of the past.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/its-outdated-rory-mcilroy-insists-irish-open-wont-go-to-portmarnock-until-menonly-policy-is-removed-35727739.html

ShivasIrons

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Again - no one is asking for 15 euro opens.

The GUI and professionals working in this area think the game needs to change.

If you go to Ballybunion (has opens) , the place is a hive of activity - there is a considerable family atmosphere - and an incredible welcome.

I've been to the older stuffy clubs - and I think their model doesn't fit anymore.

Society has change - family has changed - relationships have changed.

It is an attitude thing really.

I've even spoken to managers of these clubs and they themselves said the clubs will have to change - but it will be a long slow process.

I've been to clubs that have changed and they are fantastic places - where there is hope for the game of golf. These other places are not doing anything for the game - they are doing it for themselves in dark corridors of the past.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/its-outdated-rory-mcilroy-insists-irish-open-wont-go-to-portmarnock-until-menonly-policy-is-removed-35727739.html

You didn't answer the question about wanting the clubs who've contributed the most to the GUI been asked to leave.

Which clubs need to change and what do they need to change to?

Jawgap

ShivasIrons wrote: »

No club in Ireland denies access to any golfer who wants to play there. It is not the role of the members at those clubs to subsidize other golfers playing there by having massively discounted open competitions.

Absolutely agree that the final decision rests with the members, and I'm not saying they deny access, only that certain clubs seem content to not run opens while simultaneously possessing an expectation that their members will be admitted to other clubs opens.......bit like a kid I grew up with who was happy to play with my toys, but wasn't willing to share his in case they got wrecked.

FixdePitchmark

ShivasIrons wrote: »

You didn't answer the question about wanting the clubs who've contributed the most to the GUI been asked to leave.

Which clubs need to change and what do they need to change to?

You would have to expand on the contributed the most ?
Yes they have been around a long time - but 95% of golfers and GUI subs come from other clubs.

I think not having opens is not about money or protection of course or freedom for members. In my opinion, this is about placing yourself above the golfing community. It is about maintaining elitism.

And to a degree that is their prerogative - but to turn your back on your fellow union members is a step too far for me. If they are not fully participating with other union members - they shouldn't be in the GUI.

And that is the end of it for me.

I've been to them and they are dire lifeless miserable places.

I'd never join one - even if I think the courses are class.

Jawgap

ShivasIrons wrote: »

You didn't answer the question about wanting the clubs who've contributed the most to the GUI been asked to leave.

Which clubs need to change and what do they need to change to?

Which clubs have contributed most?

Kingswood Rover

ShivasIrons wrote: »

You want the clubs who have contributed the most to the GUI to be removed from it?

Having cheap regular open events at clubs devalues membership at a club. A €15 open at a €1000 makes membership look expensive and members leave. Golf in Ireland needs thriving clubs more then it needs nomads.

Wow i never knew that the members of the 20% paid more in fee's to the GUI, thats unfair they should only pay the same as everyone else.

prawnsambo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Having cheap regular open events at clubs devalues membership at a club. A €15 open at a €1000 makes membership look expensive and members leave. Golf in Ireland needs thriving clubs more then it needs nomads.

Does it?

Don't you have to be a member of a club to get a GUI handicap and card and isn't that what entitles you to play in an open competition? I know there are cases of non-GUI members being allowed to play in open comps, but (a) they can't win prizes and (b) they generally are supposed to pay the full green fee. But that's at the discretion of the club concerned.

So if all clubs hold open competitions, then all club memberships are 'devalued' equally. Except those clubs who refuse to hold them I suppose.

billy3sheets

ShivasIrons wrote: »

.

Having cheap regular open events at clubs devalues membership at a club. A €15 open at a €1000 makes membership look expensive and members leave. Golf in Ireland needs thriving clubs more then it needs nomads.

Last summer I was out of work for 3 months. I played opens a couple of times a week mostly around North and West Dublin. Some observations and comments on the above.
1. I really enjoyed being able to play different courses at a reasonable (20 - 30 euro) price.
2. Members mostly played their own club opens often with friends from other clubs, often elderly pensioners.
3. Members mostly thought of the open as a way to showcase their club rather than a devaluation of their membership.
4. In addition to playing golf I often spent as much on food afterwards.
5. I was disappointed that some of the more prestigious clubs had no open days or opportunities to play them at a reasonable price say 50 euro.

prawnsambo

billy3sheets wrote: »

Last summer I was out of work for 3 months. I played opens a couple of times a week mostly around North and West Dublin. Some observations and comments on the above.
1. I really enjoyed being able to play different courses at a reasonable (20 - 30 euro) price.
2. Members mostly played their own club opens often with friends from other clubs, often elderly pensioners.
3. Members mostly thought of the open as a way to showcase their club rather than a devaluation of their membership.
4. In addition to playing golf I often spent as much on food afterwards.
5. I was disappointed that some of the more prestigious clubs had no open days or opportunities to play them at a reasonable price say 50 euro.

2 and 3 above I find especially true. I don't often get the chance to play in my own club's opens, but I do when I can. As do many of the members. It's another competition mid week and an excuse to get out and play. If one were needed.

Irishdaywalker

I used to work in one of the "high end" clubs for 5 years - and we did introduce GUI reduced rates, but I would suggest it would still be too much for the average Joe golfer in Ireland, during the high season we would have these scenarios when a 4 ball of Americans would be paying €220.00 pp at 09:00 followed by a 4 ball of Irish golfers at 09:10 paying €90.00 per person. It was something that never really felt right to me. 

While I do agree with a previous comment, in relation to the American golfer. If they look at a green fee and they see a rate of €180.00 - they typically would be like, what is wrong with that course, too cheap! 

As a matter of interest, what would be the most you would pay for a standard round of golf in Ireland on a premium course?

benny79

The most I have paid was €65 for Waterville during the summer 2 years ago (gui rate) and didnt think it was worth it! but the weather was terrible and I was on my own. Two yanks behind me paid €180 each included 1 set of clubs & buggy. Always find with links courses you need a playing partner/spotter to help when your ball goes in the rough.

Haven't said that, I have often paid €50 for the European during off season think that's great valve! believe its €60 or €70 now. But thats why societies were invented you get to play great courses for a good rate and have a bit of banter to boot..

Irishdaywalker

I played The European in December - semi open for €50.00 (great value is right!) first time playing it ! friend of mine has a society outing there in July for €40.00 pp (I wish I could say that this is a wind up !) 
I find it hard to hand over anymore than €60.00 for a round of golf (anywhere!!!) - €100.00 ? Forget about it  :)

ThunderCat

Irishdaywalker wrote: »

I used to work in one of the "high end" clubs for 5 years - and we did introduce GUI reduced rates, but I would suggest it would still be too much for the average Joe golfer in Ireland, during the high season we would have these scenarios when a 4 ball of Americans would be paying €220.00 pp at 09:00 followed by a 4 ball of Irish golfers at 09:10 paying €90.00 per person. It was something that never really felt right to me.

While I do agree with a previous comment, in relation to the American golfer. If they look at a green fee and they see a rate of €180.00 - they typically would be like, what is wrong with that course, too cheap!

As a matter of interest, what would be the most you would pay for a standard round of golf in Ireland on a premium course?

Paid 295 once for Old Head Of Kinsale. Justified it by telling myself it was a once off as I'm never down that way. I was right as that was about 8 years ago and I haven't been back since. It has views like no other course I've seen and I think it was worth it. Nowadays I'd say I'd pay maybe 150 at a push if I'm down in Kerry or somewhere and it might be years before I get back there but strangely enough I'm reluctant to pay that sort of price for a nearby course. I suppose my thinking is that if they ever have opens or a limited number of cut price tee times then it is far more easily accessible to me. I'm talking links courses here by the way. Wouldn't pay anything like that for any of our parklands (yes yes I know Old Head isn't a links).

Irishdaywalker

Old Head is on the bucket list alright - and a special occasion I would be different alright ! Maybe only Portmarnock and Old Head would be the "treat".
There are plenty of parkland courses to play for €40.00 / €50.00 that are just as enjoyable to play as the premium rated courses.

WacoKid

Apologies if I am repeating someone else but in summary:

If golf clubs want to attract the American golfer they need to advertise silly prices otherwise they have no interest in playing the course.

Ignore online prices, simply ring up, state you are a GUI member, and go from there. Ask for an early bird rate to be extended a bit, say you are local but first time playing the course etc. and you will likely be offered a green fee you are happy to pay.

Kingswood Rover

WacoKid wrote: »

Apologies if I am repeating someone else but in summary:

If golf clubs want to attract the American golfer they need to advertise silly prices otherwise they have no interest in playing the course.

Ignore online prices, simply ring up, state you are a GUI member, and go from there. Ask for an early bird rate to be extended a bit, say you are local but first time playing the course etc. and you will likely be offered a green fee you are happy to pay.

The point made by some posters regarding Americans not being interested if the price is too low is us trying to justify the discriminatory prices we charge sometimes to American tourists. There may well be some well of American tourists that would be of that mind frame but i have no doubt that those from across the pond love a bit of value just the same as we do.

thegolfer

I know for a fact it's high v low fees charged by clubs draws in more American golfers. Have been a treasurer for a club, and also plenty of exposure to the American market.

Another point being the Irish golfer has a view that everything should be for a deal. Those premium clubs though charging good fees, still have big overheads to cover, mainly due to members not wanting to put their hand in their pockets for subs etc.

Theres been a drive to the bottom in recent years regarding costs in other areas, and the viewed value is seen as high. Everyone buying things online, driving out the value from society, and pushes down the value of other services because they "think" it's expensive.

Support your club, and the club pro, do buy from him, as they drive the club and it's success forward.

Personally I have paid 220stg for greenfees, no issue, because I want to. Don't complain about it, it's life, it's about the experience too

Barnaboy

thegolfer wrote: »

Personally I have paid 220stg for greenfees, no issue, because I want to. Don't complain about it, it's life, it's about the experience too

The problem I have with this attitude is that it reinforces the often bad 'elitest ' opinion ordinary Joes have about our game. Ridiculous to charge that kind of money for any course. Most people, myself included, could never afford these green fees.

What is special in Ireland for golf is that generally speaking most clubs charge reasonable green fees and openly welcome GUI members from other clubs. The elite clubs don't want us common folk contaminating their stuffy clubhouses. And to be honest they can have it.

golfguy1

Barnaboy wrote: »

The problem I have with this attitude is that it reinforces the often bad 'elitest ' opinion ordinary Joes have about our game. Ridiculous to charge that kind of money for any course. Most people, myself included, could never afford these green fees.

What is special in Ireland for golf is that generally speaking most clubs charge reasonable green fees and openly welcome GUI members from other clubs. The elite clubs don't want us common folk contaminating their stuffy clubhouses. And to be honest they can have it.

I have been lucky enough to play all the 'elite' courses in Munster and have never found any any difference in attitude towards me. Just cause me and u may not be able to afford these courses doesn't mean they are elitist.
Begrudgery in Ireland is alive and well.

ThunderCat

Barnaboy wrote: »

The problem I have with this attitude is that it reinforces the often bad 'elitest ' opinion ordinary Joes have about our game. Ridiculous to charge that kind of money for any course. Most people, myself included, could never afford these green fees.

What is special in Ireland for golf is that generally speaking most clubs charge reasonable green fees and openly welcome GUI members from other clubs. The elite clubs don't want us common folk contaminating their stuffy clubhouses. And to be honest they can have it.

But not everything is equal in golf. They charge that fee (and people pay it) because that course is probably a links course and one of the best in the world at that. It's like renting a car. You are going to pay different prices depending on the type of car it is. If you can't afford to end a high end car then rent something else and don't moan about the fee that was being asked of that high end car in the first place.

TitianGerm

Barnaboy wrote: »

The problem I have with this attitude is that it reinforces the often bad 'elitest ' opinion ordinary Joes have about our game. Ridiculous to charge that kind of money for any course. Most people, myself included, could never afford these green fees.

What is special in Ireland for golf is that generally speaking most clubs charge reasonable green fees and openly welcome GUI members from other clubs. The elite clubs don't want us common folk contaminating their stuffy clubhouses. And to be honest they can have it.

The most I've paid for a Green Fee is €90. I would pay more if I wanted. I earn a very modest salary and I have a mortgage and bills like everyone else, I don't smoke and I cut down on the drink massively over the last few years.

What I do is save my disposable income and treat myself to something every now and then that I want.

If you budget correctly there is no reason you couldn't afford a round of golf at €150 a year, whether you value that or not is up to you but I'd prefer to spend €250+ on a round at an expensive club for myself and my dad than waste it on two or three nights out in a month for example.

Most people would spend €200 on bottles of coke/water during the season on the course, trim a bit off that and you could have 2 or three rounds at the European Club every year instead.

FixdePitchmark

golfguy1 wrote: »

I have been lucky enough to play all the 'elite' courses in Munster and have never found any any difference in attitude towards me. Just cause me and u may not be able to afford these courses doesn't mean they are elitist.
Begrudgery in Ireland is alive and well.

Is the begrudgry line not a bit overused in Ireland ?

I've played the top course and paid very high rates up to summer rack. For me it is more a timing thing, I could be on a family holiday and I'm in the area. I intend to play every Links course in Ireland - and I love them so much, not sure, within reason, the price will stop me. But 80 % of them you will get at an Open rate or play in another way.

When you start getting over 100 euro you feel it , over 200 is hard to take - near 300 takes some of the enjoyment out of the day and course.

The line used here that the clubs need the money - is simply not true for the top top ones , I've been to the courses and seen the conditions. Also if some local politician, GAA star or son of a friend from the local pub comes along, it is a guest fee, sometimes free or for next to nothing.

You often play a round with a member and they are appalled you had to pay full rate - apologetic , disgusted they didn't meet you before and sign you in.

It is all a bit Irish.

I wouldn't call it begrudging - I just think it is genuinely an unfair system - and I know the extreme capitalist will go - sure life isn't fair. But for me, sport is about friendship - meeting people - sharing facilities - sharing the experience and not separating people based on those who can pay 300 euro and those who can't. A guy with not a penny can play a billionaire and are equaled by the rules. They are equaled and share what is a fantastic experience of a round of golf. They are from different backgrounds, different ideas, different faiths - but for 4 hours share that experience - Ok I'm pushing

There are many people in Ireland who love the game but won't pay the rates or will never experience playing these places. I agree that the fee being high is more to do with a statement - a way of classing people.

So I have in past payed that sort of money - but I genuinely like the concept of Open golf - opening facilities for people who love the game and support the game in this country 365 days a year. To me, a guy keeping the game going in basic course in the midlands is as/more important than a guy who plays Portmarnock 2 times a year with investment bankers.

There are some top courses that don't carry on like this (over pricing / fake front) and I have more respect for them. Irish people are authentic and to a degree reject class. This high fee - tipping and excessive display of wealth , is not valued here in the same way as the US. Courses that carry on like that here - with their "sirs" and fake Americanisms - are going against what Irish golf is about.

Your in Ireland - we have stunning courses - an amazing coast - real golf heritage - great warmth - a sense of humor - honesty - devilment. Places that carry on like Augusta National - are missing out on what Irish golf is about.
We underestimate what a product we have. We also typically have 2/3 great golfers in a group . playing good golf - I mean lads off even over 18 are good at golf here. The standard of golf is great to watch.

It may be all a bit romantic and idealistic - but the Americans I play with , enjoy a real Irish golf experience more. Not all the other crap they get at home.

I'll still play them all - I get a good laugh with the staff in them - as they know it is all a load of crap , they are from the local town - are Irish and have the same real life issues like me and you - traffic mortgages etc.
They know the Americans are there for an experience, are too slow - most of them are brutal at golf - and your there to play real golf.

The caddies and cigars, 3 min shot routines, the 150 euro logoed jumper from China - Jaysus.

Anyway - I'll still play them all. But would rather we didn't go down the route we are going.

"Put the price up - it attracts the Americans" - should be translated to "Put the price up - Isolate the locals and the real Irish golf community".

golfguy1

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Is the begrudgry line not a bit overused in Ireland ?

I've played the top course and paid very high rates up to summer rack. For me it is more a timing thing, I could be on a family holiday and I'm in the area. I intend to play every Links course in Ireland - and I love them so much, not sure, within reason, the price will stop me. But 80 % of them you will get at an Open rate or play in another way.

When you start getting over 100 euro you feel it , over 200 is hard to take - near 300 takes some of the enjoyment out of the day and course.

The line used here that the clubs need the money - is simply not true for the top top ones , I've been to the courses and seen the conditions. Also if some local politician, GAA star or son of a friend from the local pub comes along, it is a guest fee, sometimes free or for next to nothing.

You often play a round with a member and they are appalled you had to pay full rate - apologetic , disgusted they didn't meet you before and sign you in.

It is all a bit Irish.

I wouldn't call it begrudging - I just think it is genuinely an unfair system - and I know the extreme capitalist will go - sure life isn't fair. But for me, sport is about friendship - meeting people - sharing facilities - sharing the experience and not separating people based on those who can pay 300 euro and those who can't. A guy with not a penny can play a billionaire and are equaled by the rules. They are equaled and share what is a fantastic experience of a round of golf. They are from different backgrounds, different ideas, different faiths - but for 4 hours share that experience - Ok I'm pushing

There are many people in Ireland who love the game but won't pay the rates or will never experience playing these places. I agree that the fee being high is more to do with a statement - a way of classing people.

So I have in past payed that sort of money - but I genuinely like the concept of Open golf - opening facilities for people who love the game and support the game in this country 365 days a year. To me, a guy keeping the game going in basic course in the midlands is as/more important than a guy who plays Portmarnock 2 times a year with investment bankers.

There are some top courses that don't carry on like this (over pricing / fake front) and I have more respect for them. Irish people are authentic and to a degree reject class. This high fee - tipping and excessive display of wealth , is not valued here in the same way as the US. Courses that carry on like that here - with their "sirs" and fake Americanisms - are going against what Irish golf is about.

Your in Ireland - we have stunning courses - an amazing coast - real golf heritage - great warmth - a sense of humor - honesty - devilment. Places that carry on like Augusta National - are missing out on what Irish golf is about.
We underestimate what a product we have. We also typically have 2/3 great golfers in a group . playing good golf - I mean lads off even over 18 are good at golf here. The standard of golf is great to watch.

It may be all a bit romantic and idealistic - but the Americans I play with , enjoy a real Irish golf experience more. Not all the other crap they get at home.

I'll still play them all - I get a good laugh with the staff in them - as they know it is all a load of crap , they are from the local town - are Irish and have the same real life issues like me and you - traffic mortgages etc.
They know the Americans are there for an experience, are too slow - most of them are brutal at golf - and your there to play real golf.

The caddies and cigars, 3 min shot routines, the 150 euro logoed jumper from China - Jaysus.

Anyway - I'll still play them all. But would rather we didn't go down the route we are going.

"Put the price up - it attracts the Americans" - should be translated to "Put the price up - Isolate the locals and the real Irish golf community".

Can't disagree with anything u said. We would all love to play the top links courses for reasonable fees.
My only question is what price would you think the top links courses should charge Irish golfers

FixdePitchmark

golfguy1 wrote: »

Can't disagree with anything u said. We would all love to play the top links courses for reasonable fees.
My only question is what price would you think the top links courses should charge Irish golfers

50 to 100 euro

Being generous at the 100 end. But would have no issue with 100 euro.