Is someone within their rights to move you out of a prebooked seat?

dr.fuzzenstein

PeterParker957 wrote: »

I'm really not sure what part of "paying thousands a year just to get to work to pay for the ne'er do wells and "we want everything for free" crowd, who then get to swan on to a packed train a minute before the off and turf a paying customer out of a seat" you don't get as being unfair ??

Other than simple bedrudgery of anyone with a job making a contribution and having to stand for an hour.

So book a seat.

Effects

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm getting confused now. in what context can someone who has not paid, get to kick another passenger out of a seat?

Elsa Wooden Mustang wrote: »

A friend has free travel and is able to prebook a seat.
I cant see how an annual ticket holder cant do the same.

The above context perhaps?

magicbastarder

do they pay extra, or is the seat booking included in the free pass?

Night Falls

If begrudgery means being amused at the irony of someone labelling others as "we want everything for free" whilst at the same time getting massively discounted train travel, but still being annoyed at others paying to reserve a seat (when they have the exact same opportunity), then yeah, that's probably it.

The Moldy Gowl

PeterParker957 wrote: »

I'm really not sure what part of "paying thousands a year just to get to work to pay for the ne'er do wells and "we want everything for free" crowd, who then get to swan on to a packed train a minute before the off and turf a paying customer out of a seat" you don't get as being unfair ??

Other than simple bedrudgery of anyone with a job making a contribution and having to stand for an hour.

Well then drive. You will be faster.

And you need to book and pay online to reserve a seat

magicbastarder

let's actually think about how we could implement a hierarchy on public transport for us poor overburdened taxpayers.

maybe a taxpayer who has paid normally for a ticket (i.e. did not get a tax discount on it) should be given the right to evict a taxpayer travelling on a tax-discounted ticket, out of their seat.
a taxpayer travelling on a tax-discounted ticket should be able to evict someone on an FTP out of their seat. or even off the tram/train, if it's full and there's standing room only.

maybe passengers could be issued with an identifier as they board which would signify their 'right' to be on public transport?

bebeman

The best thing about these type of discussions is the FTP holders show their cards, you can tell who pays and who travels for free.
Then when you look at other discussions you can see those who bitch the most about DB/IE/BE/LUAS are those who dont contribute a penny to the running of these services, the FTP holders.

joeysoap

I worked for 40 (forty) years in my second job , first one was only for a few month in 1966. I also worked 8 years in my ‘third’ job. Loved every minute of if, so different from the second job. But I was thrown out at 65. And at 66 I got the FTA. Which I do use occasionally, maybe 4 -5 times a year. I am 68 now and healthy, thank God.

I would swap the FTA to be younger and employed again in the blink of an eye.

Hilly Bill

PeterParker957 wrote: »

I'm really not sure what part of "paying thousands a year just to get to work to pay for the ne'er do wells and "we want everything for free" crowd, who then get to swan on to a packed train a minute before the off and turf a paying customer out of a seat" you don't get as being unfair ??

Other than simple bedrudgery of anyone with a job making a contribution and having to stand for an hour.

You only paid to travel.

LuckyLloyd

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You only paid to travel.

And you're free to pay an extra €5 for an aul seat.

Isambard

imagine the scenario that there are four old ladies or a family sitting in the bay you have booked in, you evict the one in your seat and then have to sit next to the rest of them for the journey. Nice.

IE need to improve the system so that problems don't occur.

_Dara_

Effects wrote: »

The above context perhaps?

magicbastarder wrote: »

do they pay extra, or is the seat booking included in the free pass?

You have to pay to book a seat if you are a free travel card holder.

_Dara_

bebeman wrote: »

The best thing about these type of discussions is the FTP holders show their cards, you can tell who pays and who travels for free.
Then when you look at other discussions you can see those who bitch the most about DB/IE/BE/LUAS are those who dont contribute a penny to the running of these services, the FTP holders.

Have you done a detailed analysis on this? What are your findings? How much of a correlation is there?

Isambard

magicbastarder wrote: »

let's actually think about how we could implement a hierarchy on public transport for us poor overburdened taxpayers.

maybe a taxpayer who has paid normally for a ticket (i.e. did not get a tax discount on it) should be given the right to evict a taxpayer travelling on a tax-discounted ticket, out of their seat.
a taxpayer travelling on a tax-discounted ticket should be able to evict someone on an FTP out of their seat. or even off the tram/train, if it's full and there's standing room only.

maybe passengers could be issued with an identifier as they board which would signify their 'right' to be on public transport?

why not introduce Steerage and have an old goods wagon with no windows or maybe no roof for us free pass holders?

magicbastarder

_Dara_ wrote: »

You have to pay to book a seat if you are a free travel card holder.

so the person i was responding to was misrepresenting the situation, as far as i can see.

joeysoap

Anyone know if the 17.30 Dublin to Galway train is full on a Friday? Friends are traveling down in a few weeks and having read many posts on this site I think they would be well advised to book seats. (They can’t catch an earlier train owing to work). Sunday morning return - should they be ok?

CIARAN_BOYLE

joeysoap wrote: »

Anyone know if the 17.30 Dublin to Galway train is full on a Friday? Friends are traveling down in a few weeks and having read many posts on this site I think they would be well advised to book seats. (They can’t catch an earlier train owing to work). Sunday morning return - should they be ok?

They should hook seats. Definitely. They may be ok but there is no guarantee.

Jamie2k9

The reservation system is something that IE must get sorted, since they launched the new fare structure, I can only speak for Waterford route students are booking online in higher numbers as are commuters from Carlow/Athy are also booking online.

On one particular busy train online % of seats sold has gone from around 27% to 70-75% of online capacity available. Based on set sizes the % booked seats has gone from 23% to 65-70% and it increases week by week because people are now been forced to stand so book seats the next time.

The train is guaranteed to be above capacity and a reservation system working isn't acceptable in such circumstances.

Emme

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The reservation system is something that IE must get sorted, since they launched the new fare structure, I can only speak for Waterford route students are booking online in higher numbers as are commuters from Carlow/Athy are also booking online.

On one particular busy train online % of seats sold has gone from around 27% to 70-75% of online capacity available. Based on set sizes the % booked seats has gone from 23% to 65-70% and it increases week by week because people are now been forced to stand so book seats the next time.

The train is guaranteed to be above capacity and a reservation system working isn't acceptable in such circumstances.

The system isn't working on that route. I travel on it daily and people are so p****d off they sit in booked seats on purpose. You have a fair chance of getting a seat in Carlow but from Athy on most "available" seats are booked from Kildare, Newbridge or other stations along the way onwards. Athy people aren't known for being law abiding so they just sit in the seats I can see their point.

joeysoap

How do semi- flexible and flexible work? If you dont travel on the train you have booked seats on what happens? Is that seat still showing as booked when the train departs? You catch a later train and what seat are you allocated?

Ciaran B: I have advised them to book ( seats are only €2.50 anyway). Thanks

Hilly Bill

joeysoap wrote: »

How do semi- flexible and flexible work? If you dont travel on the train you have booked seats on what happens? Is that seat still showing as booked when the train departs? You catch a later train and what seat are you allocated?

Ciaran B: I have advised them to book ( seats are only €2.50 anyway). Thanks

Your seats are only available for the service you booked. Your name will still show above the seats. It would only not show if you cancelled your booking at least an hour and a half before departure either online or over the phone.

PeterParker957

magicbastarder wrote: »

so the person i was responding to was misrepresenting the situation, as far as i can see.

No, not misrepresenting. I'm not arguing that they get a free reservation, my point was SOME people get a FTP and don't need it, they then get to pay a few quid extra (out of money we give them, so we're paying for it) and then get a seat on a packed train.

CF Friday night - mother and two kids, got on the train at 5.23pm, 2 minutes before the off. Standing room only. No names on train for booking. I and two other commuters were made to move. She then tried to get a fourth to move "as we need the space to stretch out".

She got short shrift there!!

How is that right ?????

Edit - I should point out that I left that train after standing for an hour crying with pain. I'd never describe myself as disabled but I have a condition that is painful and doesn't allow me to stand for a long period of time.

osarusan

I too have a range of convenient anecdotes at my disposal.

PeterParker957

osarusan wrote: »

I too have a range of convenient anecdotes at my disposal.

So ?

Emme

PeterParker957 wrote: »

No, not misrepresenting. I'm not arguing that they get a free reservation, my point was SOME people get a FTP and don't need it, they then get to pay a few quid extra (out of money we give them, so we're paying for it) and then get a seat on a packed train.

CF Friday night - mother and two kids, got on the train at 5.23pm, 2 minutes before the off. Standing room only. No names on train for booking. I and two other commuters were made to move. She then tried to get a fourth to move "as we need the space to stretch out".

She got short shrift there!!

How is that right ?????

Edit - I should point out that I left that train after standing for an hour crying with pain. I'd never describe myself as disabled but I have a condition that is painful and doesn't allow me to stand for a long period of time.

Perhaps you should look into the option of booking a seat for yourself or start carrying a cane and say you cannot stand for long periods of time. You should not be crying with pain after a journey from a day's work.

Some of the "entitled" classes have a feudal attitude and think that taxpayers should fund their lifestyles AND give up seats for them on public transport. That mother could have taken one of the children on her knee and let the other sit in a seat. Wanting a fourth seat to stretch out... it beggars belief :eek:

The Moldy Gowl

PeterParker957 wrote: »

No, not misrepresenting. I'm not arguing that they get a free reservation, my point was SOME people get a FTP and don't need it, they then get to pay a few quid extra (out of money we give them, so we're paying for it) and then get a seat on a packed train.

CF Friday night - mother and two kids, got on the train at 5.23pm, 2 minutes before the off. Standing room only. No names on train for booking. I and two other commuters were made to move. She then tried to get a fourth to move "as we need the space to stretch out".

She got short shrift there!!

How is that right ?????

Edit - I should point out that I left that train after standing for an hour crying with pain. I'd never describe myself as disabled but I have a condition that is painful and doesn't allow me to stand for a long period of time.

Is it the chip on your shoulder that's causing your balance to be off?

Jamie2k9

PeterParker957 wrote: »

No, not misrepresenting. I'm not arguing that they get a free reservation, my point was SOME people get a FTP and don't need it, they then get to pay a few quid extra (out of money we give them, so we're paying for it) and then get a seat on a packed train.

CF Friday night - mother and two kids, got on the train at 5.23pm, 2 minutes before the off. Standing room only. No names on train for booking. I and two other commuters were made to move. She then tried to get a fourth to move "as we need the space to stretch out".

She got short shrift there!!

How is that right ?????

Edit - I should point out that I left that train after standing for an hour crying with pain. I'd never describe myself as disabled but I have a condition that is painful and doesn't allow me to stand for a long period of time.

I would have requested to see her tickets to prove she was in the correct coach.

joeysoap

PeterParker957 wrote: »

No, not misrepresenting. I'm not arguing that they get a free reservation, my point was SOME people get a FTP and don't need it, they then get to pay a few quid extra (out of money we give them, so we're paying for it) and then get a seat on a packed train.

CF Friday night - mother and two kids, got on the train at 5.23pm, 2 minutes before the off. Standing room only. No names on train for booking. I and two other commuters were made to move. She then tried to get a fourth to move "as we need the space to stretch out".

She got short shrift there!!

How is that right ?????

Edit - I should point out that I left that train after standing for an hour crying

with pain. I'd never describe myself as disabled but I have a condition that is painful and doesn't allow me to stand for a long period of time.

I’m not entirely clear on this - had she prebooked 3 seats? Can everyone clearly see the seats are pre booked? Who polices the seating policy?



Many of current generation of pensioners paid tax at 58% on very modest income, , most didn’t get a chance of university, certainly weren’t able to avail of tax saver travel, so I wouldn’t exactly say (out of money we give them, so we're paying for it)

Saying that there’s no way you should be pain after a days work, especially if it was due to having to stand for an hour on your home journey. That’s really not on. Is there any way you could get all/some annual tax saver travelers to lobby IE with a view to buying a seat at say €1 per trip and if you dont need it you don’t book it? Maybe on a week by week basis. Ie €10 a week max , €5 min if you book the seat for one way only.

PeterParker957

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I would have requested to see her tickets to prove she was in the correct coach.

She refused to show them, to be honest at half five on a Friday everyone was looking at us like we were the bad guys.

Incidentally, as I got off I noticed the names were finally displayed and two of the four seats were booked, both males and both different names. So yes, she lied/blagged/was mistaken.

@Emme - I'm probably going to need a cane/stick at some point but I'm trying to hold off that at the moment!

Oh and to the other poster ? No, no chip - just advanced osteoarthritis with "idiopathic muscle weakness" (basically till the MRI it could be anything).

PeterParker957

joeysoap wrote: »

I’m not entirely clear on this - had she prebooked 3 seats? Can everyone clearly see the seats are pre booked? Who polices the seating policy?



Many of current generation of pensioners paid tax at 58% on very modest income, , most didn’t get a chance of university, certainly weren’t able to avail of tax saver travel, so I wouldn’t exactly say (out of money we give them, so we're paying for it)

Saying that there’s no way you should be pain after a days work, especially if it was due to having to stand for an hour on your home journey. That’s really not on. Is there any way you could get all/some annual tax saver travelers to lobby IE with a view to buying a seat at say €1 per trip and if you dont need it you don’t book it? Maybe on a week by week basis. Ie €10 a week max , €5 min if you book the seat for one way only.

I'd NEVER say pensioners - they deserve absolutely everything going and I doubt anyone would disagree with me on that.

joeysoap

PeterParker957 wrote: »

I'd NEVER say pensioners - they deserve absolutely everything going and I doubt anyone would disagree with me on that.

PeterParker957 wrote: »

my point was SOME people get a FTP and don't need it, they then get to pay a few quid extra (out of money we give them, so we're paying for it) and then get a seat on a packed train

To be fair you didn’t say pensioners.

This thread reminds me of my recent experience on the train. Had prebooked a seat, knowing I'd probably be hanging for the 1.5 hour train ride back from our work Xmas party.

Got onto the train, a girl was in my seat....no big deal I thought, as the one next to her wasn't reserved, so I just took that. The girl look surprised, and said 'Oh'. I just said something like 'it's fine, no problem'. Next thing, the girl's mother came in wheeling who I guess was her brother in a wheelchair, and they clearly wanted to all sit together.

Obviously, I wasn't mentioning my reserved seat, and off I took my hungover self to find another seat.

joeysoap

I’m from Dundalk so it’s mostly the Enterprise or commuter train for me. I doubt more than 4/5 times a year. Once in January this year, next in April. So I have very little experience of booked seats. From the trips I have made I found Belfast passengers expect two seats each, and very reluctantly remove their belongings from the free seat. They appear to even competing with each other as to who will blink first. Only one stop between Dundalk and Connolly and Drogheda passengers have little chance of a seat. There are staff on the enterprise but Stevie Wonder has better eyesight when it comes to seeing seats blocked with bags and passengers standing. Even though it has a zillion stops I would travel on the commuter out of choice. It fills up by Balbriggan or Malahide but no one is hogging empty seats, Confess I never noticed booked seats previously but do recall mostly green seats signs on the Enterprise (free)

I think if IE are charging for/selling seats they ensure the system works fairly.

DelaneyO

Can you not just get the train conductor to move the person?

oxygen

Can we just clear up one issue people keep coming back to. People who pay for an annual commuter ticket, or people with free travel passes can not book seats. There is no "paying extra" to book a seats in either instance.

The only people who can book seats are those who book online.

1st issue : When booking only you have the option of "Automatic Seat Selection" or "Manual Seat Selection". Both of these options assign a seat for you. I think people who select "Automatic Seat Selection" don’t usually search for their seats so they are left empty for the journey while people are left standing.

2nd issue is : Its often the case that the pre-booked indicators do not come on trains until 5-10 minutes before departure time. This is often after someone has sat in a prebooked seat and all the other seats have since been filled. The person who sat in this seat is perfectly entitled to remain in this seat because as per the passenger charter "Passengers at terminal stations who wish to claim their reserved seats must be available for boarding at least twenty minutes prior to the advertised
departure time of the train." -See OP

The fault here lies solely at CIE inadequate implementation of this system. As I see it the options should be

1. Ensure the booked seats indicators are displaying before allowing boarding on any train.

2. Provide only booking option for "Manual Seat Selection" or "No Allocated Seat Selection". This puts a responsibility on the booker to look for their seat if they were provided one. I think it would cut down on instances of customers sitting in the first available empty seat rather than the seat assigned to them.

2. Provide commuters and FTP users an option to book seats. No reason either of these customers should be treated any differently than casual travelers.

3. Update passenger charter quoted above.

cython

oxygen wrote: »

Can we just clear up one issue people keep coming back to. People who pay for an annual commuter ticket, or people with free travel passes can not book seats. There is no "paying extra" to book a seats in either instance.

The only people who can book seats are those who book online.

Wrong, they can book a "Seat Only Reservation" online to use in conjunction with their ticket/pass

oxygen wrote: »

1st issue : When booking only you have the option of "Automatic Seat Selection" or "Manual Seat Selection". Both of these options assign a seat for you. I think people who select "Automatic Seat Selection" don’t usually search for their seats so they are left empty for the journey while people are left standing.

2nd issue is : Its often the case that the pre-booked indicators do not come on trains until 5-10 minutes before departure time. This is often after someone has sat in a prebooked seat and all the other seats have since been filled. The person who sat in this seat is perfectly entitled to remain in this seat because as per the passenger charter "Passengers at terminal stations who wish to claim their reserved seats must be available for boarding at least twenty minutes prior to the advertised
departure time of the train." -See OP

The fault here lies solely at CIE inadequate implementation of this system. As I see it the options should be

1. Ensure the booked seats indicators are displaying before allowing boarding on any train.

2. Provide only booking option for "Manual Seat Selection" or "No Allocated Seat Selection". This puts a responsibility on the booker to look for their seat if they were provided one. I think it would cut down on instances of customers sitting in the first available empty seat rather than the seat assigned to them.

2. Provide commuters and FTP users an option to book seats. No reason either of these customers should be treated any differently than casual travelers.

3. Update passenger charter quoted above.

goingnowhere

oxygen wrote: »

1. Ensure the booked seats indicators are displaying before allowing boarding on any train.

Agreed

oxygen wrote: »

2. Provide only booking option for "Manual Seat Selection" or "No Allocated Seat Selection". This puts a responsibility on the booker to look for their seat if they were provided one. I think it would cut down on instances of customers sitting in the first available empty seat rather than the seat assigned to them.

Can't see why this is an issue, people can pick their seat or are allocated a seat, seat and coach number is clearly shown at the end of the booking and on the ticket. If people can't figure out where they sit we have a bigger issue

oxygen wrote: »

2. Provide commuters and FTP users an option to book seats. No reason either of these customers should be treated any differently than casual travelers.

Already can

oxygen wrote: »

3. Update passenger charter quoted above.

Not needed

oxygen

cython wrote: »

Wrong, they can book a "Seat Only Reservation" online to use in conjunction with their ticket/pass

So its only annual travel ticket holders who cant book tickets, now it seems really specific and unfair...

Scrap that, can see now there is an option for commuters to book a seat... good to know

goingnowhere

Anyone can book at seat

Online its included
existing single or return ticket
Monthly, annual
FTP ticket
Interrail ticket
Ticket sold by a travel agent per UIC/CIV agreements
Ticket sold by Stena line or Irish Ferries
FIP tickets

99nsr125

Just give up the seat
You didn't book it
Someone else did

oxygen wrote: »

As the title suggest is someone within their rights to move you out of a prebooked seat?

I have seen the scenario below several times, its happened to me once...

- 10 minutes before the train departing a person sits in a seat with no indicator on that it is pre-booked.
- 5 minutes before the train departing the indicator comes on with the persons name who booked the seat.
- 1 minutes before or at time of departure the person who book the seat comes and request that person get out of their seat.

Now, I got out of the seat, thinking fair enough, but if you look at the "Passenger's Charter" > "Conditions of Travel" > "Section E" > 43.6

"Passengers at terminal stations who wish to claim their reserved seats must
be available for boarding at least twenty minutes prior to the advertised
departure time of the train."

I do not blame the person who booked the seat, or the person who unknowingly sat down in a prebooked seat, the fault lies solely at Irish Rails inadequate implementation of this booking feature.

As an annual ticket holder, it seems a bit unfair that I have to give up my seat to someone when I dont have the option of prebooking seats or knowing that this seat was booked in advance of sitting down. More often than not those trains are standing room only by the time the person who booked the seat arrives.

Also those prebooked seats often seem to be not taken up by the person who booked them. When you book a ticket you can choose "Manual Selection" or "Automatic Selection". If you choose "Automatic Selection" this is like waiving any interest in a prebooked seat. When that person gets on the train, their likely to sit at the first available seat. However there is a seat prebooked for them with their name on it. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on above)

oxygen

goingnowhere wrote: »

Anyone can book at seat

Online its included
existing single or return ticket
Monthly, annual
FTP ticket
Interrail ticket
Ticket sold by a travel agent per UIC/CIV agreements
Ticket sold by Stena line or Irish Ferries
FIP tickets

and as per passenger charter, "must be available for boarding at least twenty minutes prior to the advertised departure time of the train."

goingnowhere

Charter is not a contract

joeysoap

Do they open the ‘gates’ 20 mins before departure?
I know with the Enterprise you have a sitting area After you enter the platform and you are directed there (much the same as airports) before they open the doors of this sitting area to let you board the train. This is after they have visually checked your ticket. (Non of those ticket gates used for enterprise )

i can’t recall ever sitting on the train more than 5-10 mins before departure.

Podge_irl

oxygen wrote: »

and as per passenger charter, "must be available for boarding at least twenty minutes prior to the advertised departure time of the train."

"available" for boarding is not the same as boarded and in seat.

LuckyLloyd

Basil3 wrote: »

This thread reminds me of my recent experience on the train. Had prebooked a seat, knowing I'd probably be hanging for the 1.5 hour train ride back from our work Xmas party.

Got onto the train, a girl was in my seat....no big deal I thought, as the one next to her wasn't reserved, so I just took that. The girl look surprised, and said 'Oh'. I just said something like 'it's fine, no problem'. Next thing, the girl's mother came in wheeling who I guess was her brother in a wheelchair, and they clearly wanted to all sit together.

Obviously, I wasn't mentioning my reserved seat, and off I took my hungover self to find another seat.

I would have just noted to her that she was in my seat. Simple.

Addle

I had a seat booked on the Westport to Dublin train on carriage e this morning.
There was no carriage e.
Big match and march on in Dublin. No allowances made.
I'm dreading the journey home.

Jamie2k9

Technically you don't have to move seats but you should out of respect. I usually do however if the person has an attitude about it I don't....

After all its not there fault that IE are totally incompetent they manage to f*ck up something so basic as a reservation system and don't manually assign seats.

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Technically you don't have to move seats but you should out of respect. I usually do however if the person has an attitude about it I don't....

After all its not there fault that IE are totally incompetent they manage to f*ck up something so basic as a reservation system and don't manually assign seats.

Bit of an expert on it i see.

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Bit of an expert on it i see.

Irish Rail are in breach of the contract they made with the customer when the reservation system fails (hence refund procedure). Those other passengers are not obliged to move from their seats in such circumstances.

The reservation system problem is now into its 11th year...

Jamie2k9

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1984/si/109/made/en/print

29. (1) No person shall occupy or use any compartment or seat in any vehicle on the railway upon which or in relation to which notice has been fixed or given by the Board that such compartment or seat is reserved, except the holder of a reservation ticket issued by the Board in respect of the holder's occupation or use of such compartment or seat.

Two problems here, legislation not updated to reflect IT advances within CIE and as stated above the obligation is on Irish Rail to provide notice of a reservation.

So you don't have to move seats unless there is a clear notice in place....