Examples of media from the last 5 years where women are objectified

_Dara_

Deleted User wrote: »

Strange. I didn't get that from his post. I simply got that people should have their self-esteem or self-image that is independent of other peoples opinions.

Why would he or anyone conflate having an issue with objectification with having self-esteem issues? Someone wouldn't have a problem with it if they were the one being objectified or something? I can't really see the logic there.

professore

Castletownman makes a valid point. Most men wouldn't consider making the kind of sexualised remarks a lot of women casually make in everyday life. It's a complete role reversal where women can talk openly about sex and how hot some guy is and grope away but men are objectifying a woman if they look sideways at her.

The old morality used to keep women and to a lesser extent men in check; the new one exclusively keeps men in check.

I think there is a big swing back coming soon.

_Dara_

You never hear groups of lads discussing hot females? Come on.

_Dara_

_Dara_ wrote: »

Why would he or anyone conflate having an issue with objectification with having self-esteem issues? Someone wouldn't have a problem with it if they were the one being objectified or something? I can't really see the logic there.

So, you never see people who base their self-worth on their appearance? When their appearance doesn't match with their ideal (models, actors, etc), their self-esteem suffers causing negatives throughout the other parts of their life.

Isn't that one of the major objections to objectification? Most of the articles/websites I read recently on objectifying women by men referred to it as such.

For example:
"In other words, for people who base their self-worth on appearance (aka most of us, to some extent), self-objectification may be a double-edged sword. It feels great when you're getting positive attention, but it can easily turn sour when attention is negative or lacking, and these ups and downs can wreak havoc on mental and physical health."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-love-and-war/201211/do-women-want-be-objectified

You never hear groups of lads discussing hot females? Come on.

Sure. I do. Just as I hear groups of women talking about men. Or groups with both men and women all listing what they like in a person, and using a celeb/model as an example. It's a pretty standard conversational topic to talk about the physical attractiveness of the opposite gender.

But... it's terrible when men do it, because [obviously] when men do it, they're turning the woman into a sexual object... the same logic doesn't seem to apply when women do it though.

[I am extremely happy that the women in my life don't consider this objectification concept as being limited to the male gender, and just something that is. Thankfully, it seems to be the internet, media, and feminists that want to promote this as being an issue with men, with other people ignoring it and getting on with their lives]

_Dara_

Of course I know people who base their self worth too much on their appearance. Are they... the same people who have a problem with objectification? I’d imagine it’s a Venn diagram. People who rely too much on their appearance for self worth and people who object to objectification. Two separate things where coincidentally I’m sure there’s some overlap because people can care about more than one thing. But I don’t see an obvious link between the two. Certainly not everyone I know who has a problem with objectification is very into their looks or insecure. It’s a facile argument.

And, what? It’s seen as terrible when men talk about attractive women? GTFO. The thread has jumped the shark.

cantdecide

This thread is pretty much a waste of time until 2 things are established; what exactly is objectification and what exactly is the harm of it?

If it exists and is /puke/ problematic, it exists for both men and women and personally, who cares anyway no more than objectifying a cute puppy to sell loo roll, IMO.

note: I have not said it doesn't exist and I haven't said it is or isn't harmless.

Koala Sunshine

cantdecide wrote: »

This thread is pretty much a waste of time until 2 things are established; what exactly is objectification and what exactly is the harm of it?

If it exists and is /puke/ problematic, it exists for both men and women and personally, who cares anyway no more than objectifying a cute puppy to sell loo roll, IMO.

note: I have not said it doesn't exist and I haven't said it is or isn't harmless.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this. We need a precise definition of what objectification actually is.

I asked earlier for a definition and someone said "treating someone like an object". I made the facetious comment about people being used as goalposts to deminstrate the definition given was insufficient.

Murky terms such as "objectification" are great for those who wish to push their agenda while avoiding the need to be logically consistent.

professore

_Dara_ wrote: »

You never hear groups of lads discussing hot females? Come on.

Not in a mixed gender workplace I haven't

kylith

professore wrote: »

Castletownman makes a valid point. Most men wouldn't consider making the kind of sexualised remarks a lot of women casually make in everyday life. It's a complete role reversal where women can talk openly about sex and how hot some guy is and grope away but men are objectifying a woman if they look sideways at her.

The old morality used to keep women and to a lesser extent men in check; the new one exclusively keeps men in check.

I think there is a big swing back coming soon.

Rubbish. I have _never_ heard women catcall men in the street the way men do women.

kylith

kylith wrote:

Rubbish. I have _never_ heard women catcall men in the street the way men do women.

Rubbish. I have.

professore

Here's an example : https://m.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/danny-odonoghues-girlfriend-anne-de-paula-sizzles-in-empowering-sports-illustrated-swimsuit-issue-36603125.html

An article written by a female journalist. In there she says that Ms De Paula is a survivor of sexual abuse. There is a picture of her naked with some writing on her. Does this not do more harm than good? She is a very beautiful sexy young woman portraying herself as a sex object. She is the girlfriend of some singer.

Other than her beauty, celeb boyfriend and sex abuse there is nothing else of note mentioned about her. The perfect life - sexy celebrity with victim status. Literally an object. That's the model for young women today. I would be horrified if my daughters took her as a role model.

The cynic in me wonders if she was ever even abused - it's such a pre requisite now that the media are not interested unless you've been abused.

This article is clearly not aimed at men. I think I will need to change my view to one of women being objectified but by other women. As a man I'll look at the pictures - won't read the article. That's a problem. There's little point - these articles are all the same.

professore

kylith wrote: »

Rubbish. I have _never_ heard women catcall men in the street the way men do women.

I haven't heard anyone catcall anyone else in the street for years. Exception was in a northern European city and groups of Muslim teenagers were doing it on a regular basis at my daughters. Am often out and about with her in town and it never happens. Can happen to her late in the evening she says.

Triceratops Ballet

Koala Sunshine wrote:

Murky terms such as "objectification" are great for those who wish to push their agenda while avoiding the need to be logically consistent.

Koala Sunshine wrote:

I asked earlier for a definition and someone said "treating someone like an object". I made the facetious comment about people being used as goalposts to deminstrate the definition given was insufficient.

Koala Sunshine wrote:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this. We need a precise definition of what objectification actually is.

If it's not treating people like objects then what is it?
Op do you know, you started a thread on it?

Triceratops Ballet

professore wrote:

I haven't heard anyone catcall anyone else in the street for years. Exception was in a northern European city and groups of Muslim teenagers were doing it on a regular basis at my daughters. Am often out and about with her in town and it never happens. Can happen to her late in the evening she says.

Yeah I've never had men holler at me in the street when I'm with my dad either! Funny that!

suicide_circus

Mating calls are quite prevalent in the animal kingdom

Koala Sunshine

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

If it's not treating people like objects then what is it?
Op do you know, you started a thread on it?

What does it mean to treat someone like an object?

optogirl

suicide_circus wrote: »

Mating calls are quite prevalent in the animal kingdom

so is sh**ting on the ground and eating raw meat

cantdecide

Koala Sunshine wrote: »

What does it mean to treat someone like an object?

My bins were just collected now. I could hear the noise but didn't rush out to ask them their names and how they're feeling today and life in general or about their hobbies and passions. I just accepted the lads as part of the service of bin collection and not a jot more. I think I just objectified my bin men.

suicide_circus

optogirl wrote: »

so is sh**ting on the ground and eating raw meat

Camping and steak tartar?

silverharp

cantdecide wrote: »

My bins were just collected now. I could hear the noise but didn't rush out to ask them their names and how they're feeling today and life in general or about their hobbies and passions. I just accepted the lads as part of the service of bin collection and not a jot more. I think I just objectified my bin men.

when you think about it most men that do manual jobs are treated like robots , and your average office based air conditioned feminist doesn't give the foggiest about who keeps cities and technology humming

optogirl

silverharp wrote: »

when you think about it most men that do manual jobs are treated like robots , and your average office based air conditioned feminist doesn't give the foggiest about who keeps cities and technology humming

air conditioned feminist! Think I'll get that on a t-shirt :P

Koala Sunshine

Koala Sunshine wrote: »

What does it mean to treat someone like an object?

From my understanding of it: I recently saw a very attractive woman in the street. I didn't know her personality, background, emotional state, but because I found her attractive based on her physical appearance, I objectified her.

Doesn't matter that my attraction and thoughts were internalised. I was still doing it, and that somehow removes her humanity, making her into an object of desire.

silverharp

optogirl wrote: »

air conditioned feminist! Think I'll get that on a t-shirt :P

make sure they have control of the thermostat or it might be sexist 'n shiiiit

Grayson

Deleted User wrote: »

From my understanding of it: I recently saw a very attractive woman in the street. I didn't know her personality, background, emotional state, but because I found her attractive based on her physical appearance, I objectified her.

Doesn't matter that my attraction and thoughts were internalised. I was still doing it, and that somehow removes her humanity, making her into an object of desire.

Everyone objectifies. The problem is when it's the only thing that they do or they're vocal about it in such a way that if creates an uncomfortable environment.

So for example a boss who sees his female employees as just eye candy but not as people.

_Dara_

professore wrote: »

I haven't heard anyone catcall anyone else in the street for years.

That's nice. I, on the other hand, have.

cantdecide

I was at a party once and as I walked away from a conversation I heard someone say "what an ass".

It was kind of a compliment I know but I felt deeply objectified

cantdecide

_Dara_ wrote: »

That's nice. I, on the other hand, have.

Not being flippant but what is the literal harm. Explain it. Explore it. How would you convince someone that harm has occurred apart from a moment of discomfort at the hands of a cretin and I don't see damage occur (unless she biffs him, of course).

Here's a similar example...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRsPheErBj8

Clearly, Homer causes an uncomfortable atmosphere by dehumunising a stranger on the street based on judgments about their characteristics.

It's incredibly rude and obnoxious but what is the literal harm?

Koala Sunshine

Grayson wrote: »

Everyone objectifies. The problem is when it's the only thing that they do or they're vocal about it in such a way that if creates an uncomfortable environment.

So for example a boss who sees his female employees as just eye candy but not as people.

What does it mean to see people as people?

From what I can tell, your definition of "objectifcation" is not caring about a person's feelings, opinions or their talents? Would that be correct?

_Dara_

cantdecide wrote: »

Not being flippant but what is the literal harm. Explain it. Explore it. How would you convince someone that harm has occurred apart from a moment of discomfort at the hands of a cretin and I don't see damage occur (unless she biffs him, of course).

You'll get on with your life but why should anyone be made to feel uncomfortable by a total stranger? And really, "What harm does it do?" is a sticks and stones mentality. As a teenager, I had an eating disorder, and comments from strangers could really mess with my head at that point in my life. Think about that for a second.

Koala Sunshine

_Dara_ wrote: »

Of course I know people who base their self worth too much on their appearance. Are they... the same people who have a problem with objectification? I’d imagine it’s a Venn diagram. People who rely too much on their appearance for self worth and people who object to objectification. Two separate things where coincidentally I’m sure there’s some overlap because people can care about more than one thing. But I don’t see an obvious link between the two. Certainly not everyone I know who has a problem with objectification is very into their looks or insecure. It’s a facile argument.

And, what? It’s seen as terrible when men talk about attractive women? GTFO. The thread has jumped the shark.

Dara, you complain that people should think of other people's feelings when making comments to them. Did you think of the user's feelings when you told them to "GTFO".

Is that not objectification right there?

newport2

cantdecide wrote: »

I was at a party once and as I walked away from a conversation I heard someone say "what an ass".

It was kind of a compliment I know but I felt deeply objectified

If that happened to me I'd be more concerned about whether they were referring to me myself as an "ass", or just admiring my ass. I'd prefer the latter.

_Dara_

Koala Sunshine wrote: »

Dara, you complain that people should think of other people's feelings when making comments to them. Did you think of the user's feelings when you told them to "GTFO".

Is that not objectification right there?

:D:D:D

In short, no. But you know that.

Koala Sunshine

_Dara_ wrote: »

:D:D:D

In short, no. But you know that.

Ok so is objectification only wrong when people do it to you, its fine when you do it to other people?

This is my gripe with modern feminism, it's self serving thinly veiled as righteous and for the greater good. It's all about advancing the feminist's personal interests and catering to their ego when you really dig down past the surface level rhetoric.

_Dara_

Koala Sunshine wrote: »

Ok so is objectification only wrong when people do it to you, its fine when you do it to other people?

The example you gave wasn't objectification. You have looked into what it is, right? Can you explain how telling someone to GTFO on a message board is treating them as an object? Please elaborate.

Koala Sunshine

_Dara_ wrote: »

The example you gave wasn't objectification. You have looked into what it is, right? Can you explain how telling someone to GTFO on a message board is treating them as an object? Please elaborate.

Why is wolf whistling objectification but saying GTFO is not, in both cases the recipient's feelings are not being considered?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Jesus, is Wikipedia down or something?

Google it for Christ's sake.

_Dara_

Koala Sunshine wrote: »

Why is wolf whistling objectification but saying GTFO is not, in both cases the recipient's feelings are not being considered?

Again, you don't know what objectification is, do you? It's not about hurt feelings. Any number of different things can cause hurt feelings. Are they all objectification? Please look up what objectification is. You don't seem to really get it.

I probably shouldn't really be bothered responding to you, but since your replies aren't really doing you any favours, it's fine.

Koala Sunshine

_Dara_ wrote: »

Again, you don't know what objectification is, do you? It's not about hurt feelings. Any number of different things can cause hurt feelings. Are they all objectification? Please look up what objectification is. You don't seem to really get it.

I probably shouldn't really be bothered responding to you, but since your replies aren't really doing you any favours, it's fine.

That's why I'm asking what objectification is?

Koala Sunshine

Oaklyn Careful Ginkgo wrote: »

Jesus, is Wikipedia down or something?

Google it for Christ's same.

I want to hear what the posters on the thread believe to be objectification, I want to engage in discussion about it. I'm not interested in a google definition as that may differ from posters on this thread.

_Dara_

Koala Sunshine wrote: »

That's why I'm asking what objectification is?

OK... you need to be spoonfed. You say you don't want a Google definition but you're getting one.

objectification
ɒbdʒɛktɪfɪˈkeɪʃ(ə)n/
noun
noun: objectification; plural noun: objectifications

1. the action of degrading someone to the status of a mere object."the objectification of women as sexual possessions"
   
   
   
2. the expression of something abstract in a concrete form."the objectification of images may be astonishingly vivid in dreams"
   

Triceratops Ballet

Koala Sunshine wrote: »

I want to hear what the posters on the thread believe to be objectification, I want to engage in discussion about it. I'm not interested in a google definition as that may differ from posters on this thread.

I gave you a definition of it and you didn't like it, talked about using someone as a goalpost or something. When you know full well the subject is the sexual objectification of women/men in the media.

Koala Sunshine

_Dara_ wrote: »

OK... you need to be spoonfed. You say you don't want a Google definition but you're getting one.

So can women only be objectified? It seems that way from the definition.

Triceratops Ballet

Koala Sunshine wrote: »

So can women only be objectified? It seems that way from the definition.

No, that's just how a dictionary works, they usually give you the meaning of a word and a common example of it's usage

Koala Sunshine

"The action of degrading someone to the status of a mere object"

How does one know if a person has the status of an object, and how does one make another have the status of an object?

Those people who hold signs up in town would probably qualify if I understand the definition correctly. They are reduced to fixtures and fittings.

kylith

cantdecide wrote: »

Not being flippant but what is the literal harm. Explain it. Explore it. How would you convince someone that harm has occurred apart from a moment of discomfort at the hands of a cretin and I don't see damage occur (unless she biffs him, of course).

Here's a similar example...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRsPheErBj8

Clearly, Homer causes an uncomfortable atmosphere by dehumunising a stranger on the street based on judgments about their characteristics.

It's incredibly rude and obnoxious but what is the literal harm?

Imagine if you were that nerd. Imagine if, starting from the time you were 12, every day at least one person yelled ‘NERD’ at you in the street. Imagine that at family gatherings people discussed what a nerd you are. every Time you leave the house you wonder if someone’s going to yell NERD at you. Some people follow you around calling ‘nerd’.

How do you think that affects one’s self esteem?

But sure, they’re only women/nerds. Who cares if they’re made feel uncomfortable?

Koala Sunshine

kylith wrote: »

Imagine if you were that nerd. Imagine if, starting from the time you were 12, every day at least one person yelled ‘NERD’ at you in the street. Imagine that at family gatherings people discussed what a nerd you are. every Time you leave the house you wonder if someone’s going to yell NERD at you. Some people follow you around calling ‘nerd’.

How do you think that affects one’s self esteem?

But sure, they’re only women/nerds. Who cares if they’re made feel uncomfortable?

The pertinent question is are they being objectified in that example, are they reduced to the status of mere objects. I would say no, nobody insults a coffee cup or a toaster.

cantdecide

_Dara_ wrote: »

You'll get on with your life but why should anyone be made to feel uncomfortable by a total stranger? And really, "What harm does it do?" is a sticks and stones mentality. As a teenager, I had an eating disorder, and comments from strangers could really mess with my head at that point in my life. Think about that for a second.

I was a big, fat, curly haired, quiet, jam-jar specced country kid and I was teased and bullied mercilessly all through my primary education and it ruined my whole life at the time. I literally did't engage with school because if was so profoundly negative to me. But as an adult, I just hardened up. I had to make some sense of the things that I was feeling as a teenager as a result of my experiences.

Some people are just rotten and many people on their worst day can be quite rotten. I believe the road to madness is expecting retribution for jerks being jerks. It's about power, I have no doubt and my experience is showing them you couldn't care less is the only way of reclaiming your power. Matters of schoolyard bullying are quite close to my heart but really, if you need to tell adults about sticks and stones, then I really don't know what to say. You can't physically stop jerks from being jerks and they'll find all kinds of creative ways to do what they do, IMO.

kylith

Koala Sunshine wrote: »

The pertinent question is are they being objectified in that example, are they reduced to the status of mere objects. I would say no, nobody insults a coffee cup or a toaster.

It’s not about insulting. It’s about remarking on a woman in the street so that she feels like a piece of public property for all and sundry to comment on. Like she shouldn't be out if she’s not pretty enough, thin enough, or not smiling enough.

Koala Sunshine

kylith wrote: »

It’s not about insulting. It’s about remarking on a woman in the street so that she feels like a piece of public property for all and sundry to comment on. Like she shouldn't be out if she’s not pretty enough, thin enough, or not smiling enough.

That hardly degrades someone to a mere object. Objects don't receive comments from sane people.

Just because someone makes a comment about another person does not mean that person is public property.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sure. I do. Just as I hear groups of women talking about men. Or groups with both men and women all listing what they like in a person, and using a celeb/model as an example. It's a pretty standard conversational topic to talk about the physical attractiveness of the opposite gender.

But... it's terrible when men do it, because [obviously] when men do it, they're turning the woman into a sexual object... the same logic doesn't seem to apply when women do it though.

[I am extremely happy that the women in my life don't consider this objectification concept as being limited to the male gender, and just something that is. Thankfully, it seems to be the internet, media, and feminists that want to promote this as being an issue with men, with other people ignoring it and getting on with their lives]

The argument that "women do it as much as men" doesn't really cut it. Yes women do comment on a man who is attractive but in my experience it's more likely that a group of men will discuss the looks of many women as a whole conversation topic. And no, I'm not talking about all men or groups of men. I've just heard numerous conversations among male groups "rating" various women. I've never heard a similar conversation with from a group of women. They may talk about a particularly attractive guy but not in the same manner I've heard men talk about women.

Some people like to pretend that this is all in the head of feminists or that they're biased and can't see that women behave in the same way but this isn't something made up in a vacuum. There have been big stories surrounding this behaviour and it always involves male groups. For example, a few years back in one of the big accountancy or law firms in Dublin there was a group of guys emailing lists ranking the new female recruits. And I found other similar stories when I googled it there. None involved women being found out to be rating men. To pretend that it's all the same is just wilfully.missing the point.