A proper opt-out from Religion in ETB schools seems about to happen

recedite

evolving_doors wrote: »

Interesting one...
As things stand then the only logical next step, going by the minister's wishes, is this:

In order for a school to provide an opt-out from religion classes, they must hire another teacher for another subject to run concurrently.
So lets assume that that option is provided for in a school. How would a Principal plan for next year's timetable i.e.
What type of subject would be suitable ?
Will the minister provide the extra funding to hire the extra teachers?
Has this subject been created by the NCCA and approved by the Teaching Council (correct teacher qualifications etc).?
Will the minister be implementing a redeployment panel for religion teachers who find themselves with no classes?

These questions have suddenly become topical and hit the mainstream media, now that we in Easter week when the teaching unions traditionally demand more funding from the exchequer/taxpayer.

But I think they were mostly discussed and answered a while back in this very thread....

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

My daughter's school here in Germany offers a Catholic Class and a general ethics class.

They do not teach them at the same time, nor even on the same day in fact, nor do they need extra teachers to deal with it.

Some kids do one or the other. Some kids do neither. A few kids I am aware of do both. Both classes are at the end of their respective day so any kids not attending either or both of them simply have a slightly earlier going home time than the kids who do. And catholic teaching is not integrated throughout the rest of the curriculum/day either so when you opt out of religion you actually are opting out.

The logistical problems you describe do not seem to manifest themselves at all. Of course getting from one scenario to the other is difficult, but with a small application of imagination and effort such a transition does not have to be a major chore.

Michael Nugent wrote: »

The NCCA tried to bring in just such an alternative for primary schools, after lobbying by Atheist Ireland (the proposed objective curriculum on teaching about religions, beliefs, and ethics) but the Catholic Church has so far succeeded in blocking it from happening.

In other words, where there is a will (even a slight one) there is a way.

As regards a special panel for unemployed religion teachers... well I think those who are experienced teachers and willing to redeploy as (for example) teachers of "religion & ethics" would find themselves on a panel in the usual way.

But those who are only willing to indoctrinate kids in the traditional way should not be protected from exposure to changing times. Especially when you consider that their main qualification for being on the state payroll is a piece of paper proving they have been trained and approved by a particular religion.

C__MC

What is the protocal for children who opt out?

Extra classes etc?

Peregrinus

C__MC wrote: »

What is the protocal for children who opt out?

Extra classes etc?

The idea seems to be that religion will be an optional subject, like other optional subjects. So just as today you might be offered a choice between, say, Chemistry, German or Geography, and required to pick one, you might be offered a choice between Economics, Religion and Italian, and required to pick one.

Exactly what combinations and permutations to offer students will be a matter for individual school management, just as it is at present, but as far as I can make out the general idea is that religion should not be handled differently from other optional subjects.

recedite

Looks like a row broke out between RCC and the CNS schools (these are the primary school version of the ETB secondary schools)


The bishops wrote them a stern letter to say they weren't doing enough religious indoctrination. Now it looks like they have told the bishops to get stuffed.

Following the letter from the Irish Episcopal Conference, the umbrella body for ETBs announced last September it would no longer provide sacramental preparation classes for Catholic students during the school day.

It only seems to be reaching the public domain now.

I think this all started gradually a few years ago when a number of the schools took a stand against the segregation aspect of their official policy. They had been set up on the basis that non-catholics would be segregated out of the class into different groups at certain specified times.
As I remember it, the atheists/agnostics/buddhist group was supposed to meditate while the main class was doing RC stuff.
Muslims would do their own thing in a different group; (presumably argue over whether sunni or shia was the one true religion)
A fourth group was for "Christians" (presumably protestants and other misguided types).


Fair play to those CNS school principals who took the initial stand against this nonsense.

crustybla

Interesting reading here. My child has started first year and has opted out of religion. We've had many talks about it and I've explained about learning about different faiths etc. We're not a religious family though I am happy either way, whether she does it or not.
The head had said pupils had a choice at the induction meeting. I sent a note in and had a call from the year head today. She said she just wanted to know if we were sure and explained how they learn about different faiths etc.
She said my child would have to attend the class but could do study, homework or worksheets while the rest took the class. I said absolutely, glad to see she would be doing schoolwork instead of swanning off to the library for a read.
What surprised me was she said my rebel (my words, not hers☺) was the only one in the year (170 students) and one of the very few in the whole school opting out.

Michael Nugent

crustybla wrote: »

Interesting reading here. My child has started first year and has opted out of religion...

What type of school is it? Who is the patron body?

robindch

crustybla wrote: »

What surprised me was she said my rebel (my words, not hers☺) was the only one in the year (170 students) and one of the very few in the whole school opting out.

Yep, I had much the same kind of admirably passive-aggressive response from the head mistress of my kid's first school when I first dropped by to speak with her before my kid started there. I persisted though.

After perhaps a year, my kid arrived home one evening doing something like praying, so 09:01 next morning, I dropped by to speak with the head again, asking her where my kid might have picked up this and she explained that there was nothing to worry about - that they'd had some local imam in doing islamic prayers, there'd been some yoga, and the local parish priest was had dropped in to do do his own prayers with the kids, then handed out sweeties to them all.

I've a dim memory of going purple and reminding her that a) she'd previously agreed that my kid would never be subject to religion of any kind, and b) that the reason for this was because of intrusive issues in my own extended family with a range of religious fundamentalists, one or two of whom had committed suicide. At that point, the missus kindly waved her hand at me to stop, the head mistress took a deep breath and said it wouldn't happen again - which, to my knowledge, it never did.

Still though, in my own limited experience, some people in some schools use their considerable social power to enforce religious conformance. It doesn't happen all the time, and it doesn't happen to everybody, nor to the same degree. However, it does seem to be the default and unless people push back, it seems it will continue to be this way.

Mark Hamill

robindch wrote: »

that they'd had some local imam in doing islamic prayers, there'd been some yoga, and the local parish priest was had dropped in to do do his own prayers with the kids, then handed out sweeties to them all.

I'd be as angry about the "sweeties" as anything else. Either the school thinks these prayers are important for the kids to learn or they don't.
If they think they are important, then do they also give "sweeties" after Maths or English classes?
If they don't think they are important then why allow someone to clearly influence the kids otherwise with "sweeties".
And that's beside the issue of the school having someone giving your kids some food you obviously haven't approved of in advance (given that you had no foreknowledge of these visits).
(And then there is the question about whether any of these people where garda vetted to be around kids).

recedite

crustybla wrote: »

What surprised me was she said my rebel (my words, not hers☺) was the only one in the year (170 students) and one of the very few in the whole school opting out.

robindch wrote: »

..some schools use their considerable social power to enforce religious conformance. It doesn't happen all the time, and it doesn't happen to everybody, nor to the same degree. However, it does seem to be the default and unless people push back, it seems it will continue to be this way.

Religious schools and/or their BOMs only need to set the default position, and peer pressure does the rest.
Its an abuse of state funding, but it works very well for them.

JayRoc

robindch wrote: »

Yep, I had much the same kind of admirably passive-aggressive response from the head mistress of my kid's first school when I first dropped by to speak with her before my kid started there. I persisted though.

After perhaps a year, my kid arrived home one evening doing something like praying, so 09:01 next morning, I dropped by to speak with the head again, asking her where my kid might have picked up this and she explained that there was nothing to worry about - that they'd had some local imam in doing islamic prayers, there'd been some yoga, and the local parish priest was had dropped in to do do his own prayers with the kids, then handed out sweeties to them all.

I've a dim memory of going purple and reminding her that a) she'd previously agreed that my kid would never be subject to religion of any kind, and b) that the reason for this was because of intrusive issues in my own extended family with a range of religious fundamentalists, one or two of whom had committed suicide. At that point, the missus kindly waved her hand at me to stop, the head mistress took a deep breath and said it wouldn't happen again - which, to my knowledge, it never did.

Still though, in my own limited experience, some people in some schools use their considerable social power to enforce religious conformance. It doesn't happen all the time, and it doesn't happen to everybody, nor to the same degree. However, it does seem to be the default and unless people push back, it seems it will continue to be this way.

I think there's an important distinction between learning about different religions and being made to partake in a religious ceremony/pray/whatever. From what I remember of my ET national school we learned about various religions and sometimes had believers come in and talk about them, I would consider this education rather than indoctrination and had no objection to it at the time even though I was a fairly "militant" atheist even in primary school. It is important for our children to learn that some people believe in things that we do not.

But if an imam or a priest came to my kid's school and had them say prayers I would be raging.

(Also, a priest giving out sweets to kids? Have they absolutely no self-awareness?

evolving_doors

Maybe the sweets have something to do with gelatine and pig fat.

crustybla

Michael Nugent wrote: »

What type of school is it? Who is the patron body?

It's a community college. I don't know who the patron body is.

I spoke to a lady today who told me her son has started second year at the same school and she received a letter on Monday saying he couldn't opt out because he had done it in first year.

I'm a little concerned about when it comes to leaving cert and she is short the subject and therefore less points. I have had doubts about letting her opt out only due to this.

lazygal

There's no rule that a child in second year can't opt out. Schools should be ashamed of themselves lying like that.

crustybla

Yes, I must bring it up with the lady again as I'll see her again tomorrow. She should do her own research on it.

smacl

crustybla wrote: »

I'm a little concerned about when it comes to leaving cert and she is short the subject and therefore less points. I have had doubts about letting her opt out only due to this.

My eldest did her leaving this year having gone to a Catholic all girls school where they were still wasting time on religion and related activities while failing to complete the syllabus in a number of the honours subjects. Absolute disgrace, and I doubt she'd have got the college place she was after if we hadn't supplemented her education with grinds (and of course that she worked her a$$ off). There really is no reason that religion should be taught in schools other than as a chosen subject.

Hotblack Desiato

crustybla wrote: »

Yes, I must bring it up with the lady again as I'll see her again tomorrow. She should do her own research on it.

You have a constitutional right to opt your child out of religion at any state-funded school.

In fact the Education Act 1998 gives you the right to opt your child out of any subject which is contrary to your conscience.

https://www.teachdontpreach.ie/school-religion-primary-secondary-opting-out/

Hotblack Desiato

evolving_doors wrote: »

Maybe the sweets have something to do with gelatine and pig fat.

Makes a change from greasing bullets I suppose.

Michael Nugent

Atheist Ireland, the Evangelical Alliance of Ireland, and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community of Ireland, will be meeting the Department of Education again in September, to discuss the recent directive regarding religion in ETB schools.

We would like to be able to bring as much information to that meeting as possible, about what is happening on the ground in ETB schools and colleges.

We met the Department of Education while they were preparing this directive. At that meeting, the Department told us that the Circular Letter will oblige ETB schools and colleges to implement the following:

• Students can opt out of religious instruction and choose another curriculum subject.
• Students can opt out of the State Religious Education curriculum (exam subject) and choose another curriculum subject.
• Students can opt out of combined religious instruction and the State Religious Education course and choose another curriculum subject.

We are now asking parents and students to contact us, and let us know how your ETB is implementing the new Circular Letter.

We would like to know the name of the ETB school, and whether or not the school has implemented the above three scenarios.

The Circular Letter applies to ETB Community Schools, Designated and Non-designated Community Colleges.

You can leave a reply here or contact Jane Donnelly at email humanrights@atheist.ie

Michael Nugent

crustybla wrote: »

It's a community college. I don't know who the patron body is.

I spoke to a lady today who told me her son has started second year at the same school and she received a letter on Monday saying he couldn't opt out because he had done it in first year.

I'm a little concerned about when it comes to leaving cert and she is short the subject and therefore less points. I have had doubts about letting her opt out only due to this.

You can opt out in any year. You have a constitutional right to do so.

Under the new directive, schools may be allowed to phase in the provision of an alternative subject if you opt out (for students who have started a cycle of subjects for junior or senior cert), but they cannot prevent you from opting out.

Can you get us the wording of that letter? (you don't have to identify the school, or if you want to let us know privately you can email Jane at the email address in my previous comment)

robindch

JayRoc wrote: »

It is important for our children to learn that some people believe in things that we do not.

I agree entirely - but there's a world of difference between a nice man in black coming in and telling them whatever he believes and a nice man in black coming in telling them what to believe. ET schools do the former, while catholic-controlled schools seem usually to do the latter.

JayRoc wrote: »

Also, a priest giving out sweets to kids? Have they absolutely no self-awareness?

In Dun Laoghaire around eight years, seemingly not.