School Shooting in Parkland, Florida

Grayson

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Makes a lot of sense really, may have prevented more deaths and injuries

Maybe not in this case the suspect was a student and had participated in those drills. So he knew where everyone would be.

Billy86

Sin City wrote: »

Its time for the American love affair with guns to end
Its time to change the mindset
How many more children's lives need to be tragically cut short for this to happen

It was time for that 19 years ago if not earlier, to be honest at this point short of a very violent civil war (ironically involving a lot of guns) it's not going to change in most of our lifetimes I would reckon.

pumpkin4life

Billy86 wrote: »

If only that were the case, the actual reaction is to threaten violence from the NRA all the way down. The NRA have actually now upped that to calling for violence from the public those who speaks out in opposition of the politicians they fund. This kind of sh*t has a lot to answer for.

Exactly, and that's why banning guns/restricting purchases of guns ain't going to do anything. Think of the NRA as a manifestation of the consciousness of people who want their second amendments intact.

There's more guns than people in America:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

If I was a mass shooter lad, it would be easy as pie to get some weapons, even if there was a blanket ban on guns tomorrow. If I'm that committed, if I'm that much of a sick fùck, I'll find something, I'll figure something out.

So suppose you ban all guns or restrict the purchases. The ban will fly over people's heads. Joke law. Guards here can't even stop lads smoking a joint over here like.

So to properly enforce the law, the government will have to start going into people's houses and take the guns by force. That's Soviet Union what the did level right there.

Gun laws will never, ever work, when your country is flooded with them already, unless you're willing to go the whole way.

pumpkin4life

laugh wrote: »

How would this shooter have acquired a gun he could afford in that scenario?

There's 300+ million guns floating around America.

He would have found something if he wanted to easily enough.

El_Duderino 09

The discussions about gunss are never fully honest. The main reason people use guns is because they're tremendous fun and give people a sense of power.

Home security is another reason but would you honestly shoot someone who breaks into your house? I probably wouldn't. You'd never sleep peacefully again if you killed someone.

And safety against the government is the most ludicrous reason of all. They just gave their ministry of defence an additional 150ish billion dollars over the next 2 years. You and your handgun don't really matter Vs the government.

silverharp

I was talking to an American parent who had just moved to Ireland from Texas and he said he liked the Irish system as his kids didn't have to do firearms attack drills.

baylah17

My only surprise is that others are surprised by this latest attack, the 8th school shooting in the USA this year.
To be honest if the Americans are happy to have their kids slaughtered then why should the rest of the world care.

silverharp

baylah17 wrote: »

My only surprise is that others are surprised by this latest attack, the 8th school shooting in the USA this year.
To be honest if the Americans are happy to have their kids slaughtered then why should the rest of the world care.

that number might be exaggerated , they include suicides which may even happen in the middle of the night but 1 is too many in fairness

Billy86

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Exactly, and that's why banning guns/restricting purchases of guns ain't going to do anything. Think of the NRA as a manifestation of the consciousness of people who want their second amendments intact.

There's more guns than people in America:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

If I was a mass shooter lad, it would be easy as pie to get some weapons, even if there was a blanket ban on guns tomorrow. If I'm that committed, if I'm that much of a sick fùck, I'll find something, I'll figure something out.

So suppose you ban all guns or restrict the purchases. The ban will fly over people's heads. Joke law. Guards here can't even stop lads smoking a joint over here like.

So to properly enforce the law, the government will have to start going into people's houses and take the guns by force. That's Soviet Union what the did level right there.

Gun laws will never, ever work, when your country is flooded with them already, unless you're willing to go the whole way.

and it also takes the will of the people (most notably, the gun owners) to do so. Australia and the UK were never on the level of ownership or fetishisation that the US is for firearms, but after Dunblane and the Port Arthur massacre in Tasmania in the mid 90s, gun ownership declined sharply if I recall.

By comparison, in the US following Sandy Hook, gun owners and the NRA got incredibly aggressive against the idea, literally calling for more guns in schools as their response and also the parents of the children became hounded by death threats from people convinced it was a false flag conspiracy to take away their guns.

jbt123

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I know it's not popular to say but I think it is clear that he probably has either mental health issues or a learning difficulties. If he was that socially awkward, he wasn't normal.

Multitudes of kids throughput the world have mental health issues/learning difficulties and are socially awkward but they don't shoot up their schools...... I wonder where the problem lies..

pumpkin4life

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Exactly, and that's why banning guns/restricting purchases of guns ain't going to do anything. Think of the NRA as a manifestation of the consciousness of people who want their second amendments intact.

There's more guns than people in America:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

If I was a mass shooter lad, it would be easy as pie to get some weapons, even if there was a blanket ban on guns tomorrow. If I'm that committed, if I'm that much of a sick fùck, I'll find something, I'll figure something out.

So suppose you ban all guns or restrict the purchases. The ban will fly over people's heads. Joke law. Guards here can't even stop lads smoking a joint over here like.

So to properly enforce the law, the government will have to start going into people's houses and take the guns by force. That's Soviet Union what the did level right there.

Gun laws will never, ever work, when your country is flooded with them already, unless you're willing to go the whole way.

I'm sorry, but that should never be an excuse for doing absolutely nothing as a consequence. Should still bring in legislation to make it more difficult for people with problems getting their hands on guns. It won't stop them all, but if it stops a certain percentage surely its worth it?

Wilberto

baylah17 wrote:

My only surprise is that others are surprised by this latest attack, the 8th school shooting in the USA this year. To be honest if the Americans are happy to have their kids slaughtered then why should the rest of the world care.

That's the fourth variation of that statistic that I've seen in this thread alone.

The others being 13th, 17th, and 18th.


:pac:

YFlyer

bnt wrote: »

We don't know that this guy used a bump stock or anything like that, do we? This article includes a discussion of the audio, which seems to suggest he was not. The AR-15 is basically a semi-automatic "civilian" version of the M16, and can fire as fast as you can pull the trigger, with better accuracy than if on full auto.

There should be no illusion that the lack of a full auto mode makes a weapon any less dangerous. Less indiscriminate, perhaps.

Exactly what you said Strawberry Milkshake.

baylah17

silverharp wrote: »

that number might be exaggerated , they include suicides which may even happen in the middle of the night but 1 is too many in fairness

Wilberto wrote: »

That's the fourth variation of that statistic that I've seen in this thread alone.

The others being 13th, 17th, and 18th.


:pac:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/14/school-shootings-in-america-2018-how-many-so-far

Just seven weeks into 2018, there have been eight shootings at US schools that have resulted in injury or death.

The full scale of fatalities in the latest school shooting, in Parkland, Florida, on Valentine’s Day, is still unknown, but officials said there were multiple people dead and injured. Witnesses spoke of a teacher among the bodies seen at the school as children fled the scene after a tense lockdown of more than an hour.


Florida school shooting: at least 17 people dead on 'horrific, horrific day'
Read more
Less than a month ago, a 15-year-old student opened fire at a high school in Kentucky, leaving two students dead and 18 injured. Other incidents have been grave, but on a smaller scale.

In early February, one student in Los Angeles was shot in the head, and another in the arm, when a gun concealed in a fellow student’s backpack went off.

Christy42

pumpkin4life wrote: »

There's 300+ million guns floating around America.

He would have found something if he wanted to easily enough.

It would take time but it would reduce the number of guns. See the UK or Australia. At least make it somewhat difficult to get a gun.

Honestly this is just more of the same "We have tried nothing and we are all out of ideas" or "No way to prevent this says only nation where this regularly happens". All this talk of cars or illegal guns or assault vs automatic is just muddying the water. What is the US government going to do? If they have a better solution than banning guns I would love them to try it.

What do they have at the moment? Drills? Where the shooter has likely been through the same drill 1000 times? I am sure they are helpful but are going to stop there being casualties or these attacks from happening. Thoughts and prayers is a pretty tried and failed solution at this point and someone needs to start coming up with solutions instead of excuses at this point (well years ago realistically). The US needs to acknowledge there is a problem here.

Anyway when is the next thread? 1 month or 2? It will happen again in the states. We will have more thoughts and prayers then too and too many seem to think these kids lives are an acceptable cost.

El_Duderino 09

jbt123 wrote:

Multitudes of kids throughput the world have mental health issues/learning difficulties and are socially awkward but they don't shoot up their schools...... I wonder where the problem lies..

Yes. Those issues take lots of different forms. America seems to have a culture of school killings that doesn't really exist elsewhere.
Does Europe have a similar number of attacks on schools?

Wibbs

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

how about tackling the US culture, since it's the actual problem, not guns. how many other first world countries allow reasonably free access to firearms and have nothing even close to the same problems?

The issue here is Americans, not guns*

* - availability of certain rapid fire weapons undoubtedly is a problem as well though

Interestingly gun sales and ownership rates have collapsed recently, so much so Remington has gone bankrupt this week

Aye, it's not just the guns, though they're the obvious factor and the one people quite understandably focus on. Consider that in 1920's America you could get a Thompson machine gun by mail order.

A Tommy gun. In case of "bandits". Yep. 200 bucks and wait by your mailbox. Not just Tommy guns, guns of all types were much easier to acquire. And it was in many ways a more lawless time. Well apparently fear of bandits was a thing. Police coverage was pretty thin outside urban centres(and even within them). Yet mass shootings of any sort were vanishingly rare.

In the interim years gun ownership has had more and more legislation attached to it and it's much more regulated by comparison, yet mass shootings over the last 20-30 years have increased exponentially. So clearly there are other factors at play in the American psyche that have changed in that time. I would strongly suspect that these factors would mean that if you could remove all firearms at the snap of a finger, you'd continue to have mass attacks by other means. Of course as CM notes rapid fire weapons are most certainly a factor and the factor as far as the number of victims in a short period of time goes.

They need to start to look more closely at why so many people, usually young men, in American society become so deranged by their environment that they resort to such murderous acts. Mind you, that may be a much harder nut to crack than gun regulation, as it would mean looking very hard at why something in the American Dream™ has turned rotten.

suicide_circus

240 million: the estimated number of cars in the US

320 million: the estimated number of guns in the US

Ulysses Gaze

Access to firearms is one problem.

I think the bigger problem is the fact that 50 million Americans are heavily addicted to Psychotropic/Psychiatric drugs.

Mix the two together and.....

Good article here on this from the Huff Post

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/hyla-cass-md/is-it-drugs-not-guns-that_b_2393385.html

Christy42

Wilberto wrote: »

That's the fourth variation of that statistic that I've seen in this thread alone.

The others being 13th, 17th, and 18th.


:pac:

It depends on the definition. I think the 18th one is including anything unsanctioned on school property. Thus anything in the middle of the night or accidental shots or no injuries. Granted even they would be pretty serious events, just less serious than others.

I agree with those saying that the effect of just a gun ban would be limited, certainly for a time period. There is also a risk of some in the NRA getting a lot more violent in the short term. An important part of any increase in gun laws would getting people to understand why they are needed. Right now they don't have public support which helped elsewhere. You have to wonder at how they don't given these events keep happening.

Gun laws need to be tightened but they will need public support to be effective.

Snickers Man

Thoughts and prayers people. Thoughts and prayers.

Clearly somebody isn't thinking and/or praying enough.

You know it works!!

https://www.reddit.com/r/Firearms/comments/7xndmf/according_to_media_there_have_been_18_school/


That's the mentality you have in America.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Firearms/comments/7xndmf/according_to_media_there_have_been_18_school/


That's the mentality you have in America.

weldoninhio

Wibbs wrote: »

Aye, it's not just the guns, though they're the obvious factor and the one people quite understandably focus on. Consider that in 1920's America you could get a Thompson machine gun by mail order.

A Tommy gun. In case of "bandits". Yep. 200 bucks and wait by your mailbox. Not just Tommy guns, guns of all types were much easier to acquire. And it was in many ways a more lawless time. Well apparently fear of bandits was a thing. Police coverage was pretty thin outside urban centres(and even within them). Yet mass shootings of any sort were vanishingly rare.

In the interim years gun ownership has had more and more legislation attached to it and it's much more regulated by comparison, yet mass shootings over the last 20-30 years have increased exponentially. So clearly there are other factors at play in the American psyche that have changed in that time. I would strongly suspect that these factors would mean that if you could remove all firearms at the snap of a finger, you'd continue to have mass attacks by other means. Of course as CM notes rapid fire weapons are most certainly a factor and the factor as far as the number of victims in a short period of time goes.

They need to start to look more closely at why so many people, usually young men, in American society become so deranged by their environment that they resort to such murderous acts. Mind you, that may be a much harder nut to crack than gun regulation, as it would mean looking very hard at why something in the American Dream™ has turned rotten.

Thats close to $3000 in todays money. I doubt many people back then had access to that kind of cash.

Snickers Man

colbarr wrote: »

God needs to get his finger out of his arse and start answering those prayers!

Pauliedragon wrote: »

The terrorists don't need to bother. Just relax and watch them kill each other.

Well there's your answer: God isn't listening but Allah clearly is.

And he's obviously winning the "pray-off"!

Wibbs

weldoninhio wrote: »

Thats close to $3000 in todays money. I doubt many people back then had access to that kind of cash.

More like $2500. Still within reach enough that they were a best selling firearm. Never mind and contrary to popular belief that people can pick up a "Saturday Night Special" for 2o bucks guns are not exactly cheap today. EG a Colt AR-15 is around the 1000 quid mark and can go well north of that depending on options(used prices vary depending on model and rarity). As a hobby collecting firearms is not a cheap pursuit.

pumpkin4life

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Access to firearms is one problem.

I think the bigger problem is the fact that 50 million Americans are heavily addicted to Psychotropic/Psychiatric drugs.

Mix the two together and.....

Good article here on this from the Huff Post

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/hyla-cass-md/is-it-drugs-not-guns-that_b_2393385.html

Yeah, it's the same personality cropping up again and again for mass shootings as well.

White lad, broken home, Cluster B personality disorder, psychiatric drugs, crap with women/virgin/hates women, bullied, creeps people out, often above average intelligence, very nihilistic, very introverted.

Go back and read up on mass shootings. That profile above will match the vast majority of them.

laugh

Wibbs wrote: »

More like $2500. Still within reach enough that they were a best selling firearm. Never mind and contrary to popular belief that people can pick up a "Saturday Night Special" for 2o bucks guns are not exactly cheap today. EG a Colt AR-15 is around the 1000 quid mark and can go well north of that depending on options(used prices vary depending on model and rarity). As a hobby collecting firearms is not a cheap pursuit.

New unfired AR-15 for $569:

https://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=AR+15

Used would likely be less.

valoren

I think the problem is never going to go away and thus policy needs to change from the deluded idea that this can be prevented and must focus completely on containment i.e. reducing the potential number of fatalities.

Christy42

valoren wrote: »

I think the problem is never going to go away and thus policy needs to change from the deluded idea that this can be prevented and must focus completely on containment i.e. reducing the potential number of fatalities.

Why? Are Americans that fundamentally different to other human beings? It will be tough admittedly due to their culture but the very fact that it simply does not happen in other countries is an indicator that yes you can absolutely have a place where this does not happen.

siblers

Christy42 wrote: »

Why? Are Americans that fundamentally different to other human beings? It will be tough admittedly due to their culture but the very fact that it simply does not happen in other countries is an indicator that yes you can absolutely have a place where this does not happen.

Some Americans feel so strongly about their right to hold arms, that if it was taken away from them, it would result in serious civil unrest. Could easily see scenarios where groups of NRA nuts would form militias and and end up fighting to the end rather than give up their arms.

Especially in places in the deep south

pumpkin4life

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Yeah, it's the same personality cropping up again and again for mass shootings as well.

White lad, broken home, Cluster B personality disorder, psychiatric drugs, crap with women/virgin/hates women, bullied, creeps people out, often above average intelligence, very nihilistic, very introverted.

Go back and read up on mass shootings. That profile above will match the vast majority of them.

exactly, you know some might say a little too typical!!!!!

siblers

siblers wrote: »

Some Americans feel so strongly about their right to hold arms, that if it was taken away from them, it would result in serious civil unrest. Could easily see scenarios where groups of NRA nuts would form militias and and end up fighting to the end rather than give up their arms.

Especially in places in the deep south

That’s probably the best chance of survival future generations of school children have.

brendanwalsh

My friend in the US said his family will go to war if the government tries to take their guns away. A lot of them have a deep seated fear of some sort of gestapo state developing and want their gums to protect themselves from their own government.

The states Is one ****ed up place. Those kids were slain with fully automatic full metal jacket ammunition. Just unbelievable stuff. Heart goes out to all those affected.

Berserker

I know that they are arming and training teachers in Colorado, three day course, now. Wonder if they have started to do that in FL. I know that people here want restrictions put in place but that's not going to happen. Friends of mine would go berserk if restrictions came into place.

steddyeddy

NIMAN wrote: »

Probably a kid that was bullied all his life by other kids.

I don't think its fair just to call him a weirdo. He's a weirdo for a reason.

Well the weirdos are the ones who don't think guns are a problem in the US.

Berserker

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well the weirdos are the ones who don't think guns are a problem in the US.

I know plenty of people who are of that mindset and I certainly wouldn't classify them as weirdos. Americans have this very strange relationship with guns. You probably have to live there and get to know them to even begin to understand it. It's hard to grasp and people from this part of the world will probably never fully get it, I certainly didn't but it's unfair to call them weirdos. I've been to ranges in the USA and the people in there are probably the nicest people I came across in the USA.

pilly

If we've grown so weary of hearing these stories that we don't even bat an eyelid anymore how must the average sane American feel?

I honestly wouldn't live there if someone paid me a million a week.

pilly

Berserker wrote: »

I know plenty of people who are of that mindset and I certainly wouldn't classify them as weirdos. Americans have this very strange relationship with guns. You probably have to live there and get to know them to even begin to understand it. It's hard to grasp and people from this part of the world will probably never fully get it, I certainly didn't but it's unfair to call them weirdos. I've been to ranges in the USA and the people in there are probably the nicest people I came across in the USA.

And what do these lovely people say when children are killed because of them defending their right to bear arms?

Are the children just an acceptable sacrifice?

Berserker

pilly wrote: »

If we've grown so weary of hearing these stories that we don't even bat an eyelid anymore how must the average sane American feel?

I honestly wouldn't live there if someone paid me a million a week.

Jesus wept. It's a massive country, not some dot like Ireland that you can drive round in a few hours. You could spend the rest of your life in the USA and never see a gun.

pilly

Berserker wrote: »

Jesus wept. It's a massive country, not some dot like Ireland that you can drive round in a few hours. You could spend the rest of your life in the USA and never see a gun.

Hang on one second, you were the one talking about people you met on the "range" for a start, why didn't you answer that question for starters?

Secondly, I could happily live anywhere and never see a gun and at the same time not be terrified what was going to happen to my children in school so take your faux outrage somewhere else pal.

I'm sure anyone can avoid owning a gun in America, doesn't mean that they're safe. :rolleyes:

BillyBobBS

Here's a great idea America, vote in a democrat who will change all of the gun laws like say i dunno Obama or Clinton. Oh wait a minut....

Berserker

pilly wrote: »

And what do these lovely people say when children are killed because of them defending their right to bear arms?

Are the children just an acceptable sacrifice?

They would say that it is a desperately sad incident and controls are needed to prevent troubled individuals from getting guns. However, responsible adults, who use their firearms lawfully shouldn't suffer because of the actions of a very small minority of troubled people.

pilly wrote: »

Hang on one second, you were the one talking about people you met on the "range" for a start, why didn't you answer that question for starters?

What question do you have about the range?

vicwatson

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Here's a great idea America, vote in a democrat who will change all of the gun laws like say i dunno Obama or Clinton. Oh wait a minut....

Republicans keep blocking any attempt to touch it

Billy86

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Here's a great idea America, vote in a democrat who will change all of the gun laws like say i dunno Obama or Clinton. Oh wait a minut....

Small problem there is that Republicans have controlled Congress since 2012 and during which over 100 gun control measures have been blocked and rejected. Which shouldn't be surprising given the millions in funding they get from the same NRA that openly endorse violence against their political opponents.

I don't know how to break this to you for the umpteenth time, but Hillary Clinton is not and never was the president of the US. Bill Clinton was though, and the Federal Assault Weapons Ban when the Democrats also had a majority in congress... which then was allowed to expire under George W. Bush with a Republican majority in both houses of congress.

Pinch Flat

Panjandrums wrote: »

It's easy to attack gun ownership when you have never experienced it.
Let's ban people cycling on the roads because people are dying from bicycles, at the end of the day cycling and guns are used for leisure and sport and 1 person out of 320 million shouldn't stop that.

Some serious false equivalence going on there. For example, the health benefits, avoiding congestion and lessening pollution that cycling brings. But hey cyclists seem to be the universal pariah these days, so just going with the current group think.

FishinForDealz

Terrible News!

ThinkProgress

valoren wrote: »

I think the problem is never going to go away and thus policy needs to change from the deluded idea that this can be prevented and must focus completely on containment i.e. reducing the potential number of fatalities.

You know, I hate the word 'holistic'... because it has become one of those stupid buzzwords, used indiscriminately by far too many people these days!

However, there really does need to be a more holistic approach to tackling this problem.

Other countries have similar amounts of firearms per head of population, as the US... but they don't have this kind of problem with rampant gun violence. Why is that??

The gun culture simply cannot be the only reason for all these massacres... it's certainly a significant factor in them. But it's not the only factor... and quite possibly not even the main factor!

America has a very deep history of violence. The gun is arguably a symptom of their violent past and present. There are more bad and mad people in that country than other countries... just look at the huge prison population. (most of whom are not incarcerated because of gun crimes)

While I'm certainly no gun advocate to say the least... I really do think people need to look a bit deeper than just the tools being used by these crazy people, to commit their crimes!

Sure the gun is a very dangerous tool... and there are absolutely far too many of them around. But it has become a convenient way to ignore the deeper issues/problems in their society. Why are so many Americans angry and feeling disenfranchised and powerless, to the point where they want to lash out at everyone around them?? What does that say about their society?

Jelle1880

A lot of Yanks seem to think that even the smallest measure will lead to their guns being taken away, but don't even back simple things like a standard background check to make sure the person buying a shotgun isn't some deranged lunatic.

The government can't even investigate gun violence due to the so-called Dickey Amendment, preventing the CDC from looking at it as a public health crisis.

Billy86

141_Oscar_Mike wrote: »

Most common question i'm seeing on Twitter this morning "What did Obama do in 8 years?"

Trumpies are just on another level of thick.

Actually it's completely intentional on their end, and a good chunk of those are probably more bots.