'Training to train'

demfad

Safiri wrote: »

I agree fully with you bar the last sentence. It is Volume that builds the strength but people don't increase the volume in the right way. The injuries happen from increasing both the volume and intensity at the same time instead of separately.

Base is where people should build the volume because the intensity is low. Doing so builds strength before starting specific training when the intensity increases. Look at any very fast person and you will see the simple structure in their training; highest volume is achieved of marathon training is achieved before specific training starts.

Steve Magness training

Base mileage(100mpw)
Comp/specific(85mpw)

Peak mileage achieved in Base nearly 3 months before race when intensity is lowish

Amateur runner example

Base(40mpw)
Comp/specific(60mpw)

Peak mileage achieved 3 weeks before race when intensity is highish

See the difference here. The way most amateur runners get it backwards is by increasing everything at once. The way the amateur runner structures training(all those book plans do it too) is like being able to walk 10k and deciding to run 15k a few weeks later which is not a good idea and why so many people get injured or do not progress. If you want to run 20k, you better be able to walk 30 first. It's a metaphor and not literal but hopefully the idea gets across.

You build volume when the intensity is low and you cut volume when the intensity is added.

If people can run 60 miles at low intensity, it is easier to run 45 with intensity because they will be conditioned to do it from the volume in base training rather than running 45 at low intensity in base and try to run 60 at high intensity during the last few weeks.

Most marathon schedules for lower mileages need to be base training oriented anyway because general endurance is the limiting factor.

Safiri

demfad wrote: »

Most marathon schedules for lower mileages need to be base training oriented anyway because general endurance is the limiting factor.

Very true but what if general endurance is improved first with a bigger base? That is what training to train means to me, addressing a weakness for an event that requires that facet to be strong. Just trying to shake it up and sow a seed as they say.

Safiri

Testosterscone wrote: »

More miles is only one element of running, people forget this and focus on the engine to the detriment of everything else which makes a runner

The opposite is more true now than ever, people put more value on supplementary focuses than mileage. My sister in law took up running last year and improved for a while but is stuck on a plateau now. She does that trx yoke 2 times a week and yoga other days and runs twice a week and wonders why she struggles at the end of a 10k or can't improve. Impossible to talk to her because she reads so much from runnersworld and chi running and all that that she is convinced that these are shortcuts. I see this much in the same mould of the low volume HIIT fad of the 90's which left no one running and anyone who was left running well below their ability.

There is a place for these for these in training but like HIIT training in the 90's, the focus should not be to detremint of mileage because in the end; running is a sport of endurance and mileage is king especially in the marathon. The sport is simple at the end of it all but people make it complicated.

demfad

Safiri wrote: »

Very true but what if general endurance is improved first with a bigger base? That is what training to train means to me, addressing a weakness for an event that requires that facet to be strong. Just trying to shake it up and sow a seed as they say.

Fair enough. I think general endurance will still be the limiting factor because the race itself will still be a test of general endurance at this mileage.

A lot of bang for buck can be gained from regular strides especially as the average training pace will be low.

For increasing mileage I would put the emphasis on injury avoidance and boredom avoidance as these will be the main deterrants to a successful outcome.

To avoid injury, mileage can be reduced initially by 10-15% making sure that all elements are included (strides etc.) comfortably. From this comfortable sustainable level, the mileage can be safely cranked up in a controlled manner.

Races are good for avoiding boredom, always changing and trying new types of runs helps too, varying routes and terrain, running by feel, trying new gadgets etc. etc.

For faster type runners who were better sprinters when playing as kids, there is little point in doing threshold stuff if a marathon has to be run within the year. They need more aerobic endurance for long running and running long is the only way. That or focus on shorter distances and build up to the marathon over years when endurance has improved.

Stronger type runners could benefit from such a phase but only if they will have the endurance for the marathon come the race itself: focusing on increasing the LT is wasting time if it means the runner cant translate that to improving marathon pace for the entire lenght of the marathon.

Baby75

What a great thread I am taking it all in taking notes even!

Thank you for posting Eyrie I know I have completed my first Marathon following Boards and my base was max 10km before I started, So you are in a much better position now

This year I still class my self as a novice but feel stronger, and I guess in stead of just completing the marathon which was like a fun LSR in the end as I stayed with my hubby who cycled up beforehand and started overheating so stopped a lot.So I let go of the time I had in my head and just enjoyed the experience But this year I want to train to run it better and see what I can do!

My weakness I think is speed endurance, I can run the distance and love long runs but I want to work on holding a faster pace. so I feel I need to work on those and of course S&C

Kellygirl

A friend reminded me that on the 15th February last year she joined me for my long run of the week - 9km and that was running 1km with 0.5km walking recovery! You guys have so much more mileage done than I had!!

Testosterscone

Safiri wrote: »

The opposite is more true now than ever, people put more value on supplementary focuses than mileage. My sister in law took up running last year and improved for a while but is stuck on a plateau now. She does that trx yoke 2 times a week and yoga other days and runs twice a week and wonders why she struggles at the end of a 10k or can't improve. Impossible to talk to her because she reads so much from runnersworld and chi running and all that that she is convinced that these are shortcuts. I see this much in the same mould of the low volume HIIT fad of the 90's which left no one running and anyone who was left running well below their ability.

There is a place for these for these in training but like HIIT training in the 90's, the focus should not be to detremint of mileage because in the end; running is a sport of endurance and mileage is king especially in the marathon. The sport is simple at the end of it all but people make it complicated.

While this is definitely true with regards what many view as supplementary work my point was referring to the fact that many of run specific work is largely ignored now

Hip Mobility work and drills as part of your warm up is for a session is not supplementary,it should be seen as part of the overall session.
To give you an example

1-3 mile warm up,
Dynamic stretching
8x100m strides + 15-20 min drills
Main Session
1-3 mile Cooldown
Static Stretching

This is not supplementary work, these are all elements of the overall package many of which gets largely ignored and as a result we become one dimensional runners by in large with poor running form and higher risk of injury

Yoga, TRX, Crossfit, what ever are supplementary to running and while there may be a cross over benefit it is less deliberate whereas they mentioned above would be designed with purposely within an overall training plan

Coffee Fulled Runner

Hi Testosterscone just wondering what other drills you'd advice bar the usual high knees, A and B skip, bum kicks, Straight leg bounds?

Testosterscone

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

Hi Testosterscone just wondering what other drills you'd advice bar the usual high knees, A and B skip, bum kicks, Straight leg bounds?

Should give you a few idea's

https://www.facebook.com/jopocoaching/videos/743177949220725/?hc_ref=ARSjfbq1oOvlcrJibMNoJqFxqMeEkSbcnB6GPmd99Mwondf15w2eN9DyPp_LAb3mSFs

Baby75

Testosterscone wrote: »

Should give you a few idea's

https://www.facebook.com/jopocoaching/videos/743177949220725/?hc_ref=ARSjfbq1oOvlcrJibMNoJqFxqMeEkSbcnB6GPmd99Mwondf15w2eN9DyPp_LAb3mSFs

They are really great thanks so much I looked them up yesterday but that video is much better than what I found

skyblue46

I can see a few faceplants in my future when I try some of those! Haha

Baby75

skyblue46 wrote: »

I can see a few faceplants in my future when I try some of those! Haha

I had to stand and practice the knee-high rhythm kick but I can do it now, always wanted to do that one LOL

joey1111

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

36 weeks = 3 nice blocks.

12 weeks of ramping up your mileage, running as frequently as you can. Focus on extending your long run over this period to 2hrs+, a splattering of strides, some hill work (short sprints and hilly longer runs) and some comfortable tempo work (3 x 10mins, easy out steady back runs). This will give you a solid foundation.

8 weeks of 5-10k training with a goal race at the end (search for the 10k McMillian thread).

Then get into a 16 marathon plan.

Safiri wrote: »

Depends on how well you want to do...Starting a plan with higher mileage means you will be able to train better and run faster. You want to settle for where you are or be better prepared?

For 5/10k training before marathon with 36 weeks, I would do

10 weeks build up to 50
6 weeks 5/10k specific 35-40
12 weeks build up to 60-65
7-8 weeks marathon specific 50-55
2-3 weeks taper
Race

Not crazy at all if you wanted to.

Build up would include easy fartleks with perceived effort of 5-6 out of 10. Moderate steady state runs between easy and marathon pace. Out and back routes coming back faster than than you go out. Strides, hill sprints, flying 100's/200's with float recovery.

Marathon Specific would be mid week interval workout 5-10 seconds faster than marathon pace, alternating long runs between steady and easy(1 mile steady; 1 mile 1 minute slower; 1 mile steady etc). Fast finish long runs, fartleks etc. Cut back mileage when transitioning from Build up to specific to account for increase in intensity.

5/10k specific would be repeats working at faster than race pace to cruise intervals at tempo pace. If doing 2 workouts per week; alternate 1 workout at mile/3k pace one week with tempo intervals next week. Second workout more specific at race pace. Cut back mileage transitioning from Build up to specific phase to account for increase in intensity.

Build up phase should always have the highest mileage every year. It is to prepare your body for specific training both aerobically and conditioning. It is the lowest intensity phase which means it should be easier to run more miles. Mileage should be cut back during specific training as the intensity is higher, most get this backwards and increase both mileage and intensity at once.

Testosterscone wrote: »

Generally the same rules apply.

I remember seeing an old article for Novice Marathon runners from about 30 years back recently, similar to the advice type columns you get in Runners World or Irish Runner. One of the points would be that you should keep building slowly until you are consistently running 60 miles per week 8 weeks prior to Goal Marathon. This may seem alien in today's approach for many but it is solid advice.

Most of us don't have the strength to that sort of work so you need to scale it back to suit your own needs so for example a typical session for a marathon runner is

20-40 min tempo

If this is too hard for your current level scale it back

3-4* 8-10 min tempo with 3 min recovery

Still working too hard in the session or picking up niggles and not recovering? Scale it back again

3-4 x (4,3,2,1 min Tempo with 60 second recovery) 3 min

breaking it down to a level that fits where you are vs where you want to be gives you a starting point and from here you can gradually build the session up to be able. This is what I mean by training to train.

Rather that say do x or y ask yourself the following questions and it will give you an idea of whether you need to work on in early stages and from there break things right down to the level you are at rather than hoping by running particular sessions you will get the the place you wanna be fitness wise.

Do you fade on easy runs over an hour?
Do you pick up niggles when you try increase mileage?
Do you struggle with 5k race paces in training?
What type of races do you find hardest/easiest?
Do you have a high knee lift and good kick back?
Do you struggle physically or mentally in races

These can offer good insight into where you need to spend a bit of time working and from there break it down to the level you can handle. For many form and endurance are issues so best to spend time addressing them early on while the mileage naturally increases month after month to the point that training is a seamless transition into marathon specific work.

Safiri wrote: »

I agree fully with you bar the last sentence. It is Volume that builds the strength but people don't increase the volume in the right way. The injuries happen from increasing both the volume and intensity at the same time instead of separately.

Base is where people should build the volume because the intensity is low. Doing so builds strength before starting specific training when the intensity increases. Look at any very fast person and you will see the simple structure in their training; highest volume is achieved of marathon training is achieved before specific training starts.

Steve Magness training

Base mileage(100mpw)
Comp/specific(85mpw)

Peak mileage achieved in Base nearly 3 months before race when intensity is lowish

Amateur runner example

Base(40mpw)
Comp/specific(60mpw)

Peak mileage achieved 3 weeks before race when intensity is highish

See the difference here. The way most amateur runners get it backwards is by increasing everything at once. The way the amateur runner structures training(all those book plans do it too) is like being able to walk 10k and deciding to run 15k a few weeks later which is not a good idea and why so many people get injured or do not progress. If you want to run 20k, you better be able to walk 30 first. It's a metaphor and not literal but hopefully the idea gets across.

You build volume when the intensity is low and you cut volume when the intensity is added.

If people can run 60 miles at low intensity, it is easier to run 45 with intensity because they will be conditioned to do it from the volume in base training rather than running 45 at low intensity in base and try to run 60 at high intensity during the last few weeks.

Safiri wrote: »

Exactly. The point is showing how you can progress mileage rather than saying run 60 miles, it's an example rather than do this or that. It's another option which depends on how well you want to do.

The higher mileage built up in base, the more options become available for specific training meaning there is more scope for higher intensity. If people are stronger; they can take more intensity and plans can become more specific.

What I say is not gospel but just another point of view to show you can be better prepared for the training if the time frame is long. First time marathon usually use plans like Hal higdon which are not specific but if they put the time an effort in to building a good base before marathon training, they can use a more advanced plan which will get better results as they have prepared for it. Just because it's your first time doesn't mean you have to be a beginner.

Testosterscone wrote: »

The question then comes should a marathon training plan be watered down to meet the person or should the person build the base to meet the basic requirements of training. Personally I feel that the likes of Hal Higdon etc are successful due to them being achievable rather than them being most effective



Yes this is the aim of the boards plan. Remember though this plan is designed with the view that many won't have done the prior work. Its real world application based off general mindsets of people to make the best of a bad situation. People expect to be able to run marathons from little to no base these days and are about passively completing marathons moreso than actively competing. It's getting best bang for your buck.

Think of the boards/Hal Higdon like your secondary school grinds. You could study year round for your Junior/Leaving Cert yet many will pay for weekend study courses to focus on area's to that get them through by going through what is likely to come up in the exams.

Testosterscone wrote: »

Plenty of things that can be done

Build endurance
Steady Runs
Long Runs 90 min-2 hr
Progression Runs
Run more

Improve form
Drills
Strides
Short fast reps
Hill reps

Build durability
Hip mobility work (hurdle drills)
Strength and conditioning
light plyometrics
Hills

Build mental toughness
Race regularly
Do cross country
Run undulating reps based on time
Run with people
Hills

More miles is only one element of running, people forget this and focus on the engine to the detriment of everything else which makes a runner

Safiri wrote: »

The opposite is more true now than ever, people put more value on supplementary focuses than mileage. My sister in law took up running last year and improved for a while but is stuck on a plateau now. She does that trx yoke 2 times a week and yoga other days and runs twice a week and wonders why she struggles at the end of a 10k or can't improve. Impossible to talk to her because she reads so much from runnersworld and chi running and all that that she is convinced that these are shortcuts. I see this much in the same mould of the low volume HIIT fad of the 90's which left no one running and anyone who was left running well below their ability.

There is a place for these for these in training but like HIIT training in the 90's, the focus should not be to detremint of mileage because in the end; running is a sport of endurance and mileage is king especially in the marathon. The sport is simple at the end of it all but people make it complicated.

demfad wrote: »

Fair enough. I think general endurance will still be the limiting factor because the race itself will still be a test of general endurance at this mileage.

A lot of bang for buck can be gained from regular strides especially as the average training pace will be low.

For increasing mileage I would put the emphasis on injury avoidance and boredom avoidance as these will be the main deterrants to a successful outcome.

To avoid injury, mileage can be reduced initially by 10-15% making sure that all elements are included (strides etc.) comfortably. From this comfortable sustainable level, the mileage can be safely cranked up in a controlled manner.

Races are good for avoiding boredom, always changing and trying new types of runs helps too, varying routes and terrain, running by feel, trying new gadgets etc. etc.

For faster type runners who were better sprinters when playing as kids, there is little point in doing threshold stuff if a marathon has to be run within the year. They need more aerobic endurance for long running and running long is the only way. That or focus on shorter distances and build up to the marathon over years when endurance has improved.

Stronger type runners could benefit from such a phase but only if they will have the endurance for the marathon come the race itself: focusing on increasing the LT is wasting time if it means the runner cant translate that to improving marathon pace for the entire lenght of the marathon.

Testosterscone wrote: »

While this is definitely true with regards what many view as supplementary work my point was referring to the fact that many of run specific work is largely ignored now

Hip Mobility work and drills as part of your warm up is for a session is not supplementary,it should be seen as part of the overall session.
To give you an example

1-3 mile warm up,
Dynamic stretching
8x100m strides + 15-20 min drills
Main Session
1-3 mile Cooldown
Static Stretching

This is not supplementary work, these are all elements of the overall package many of which gets largely ignored and as a result we become one dimensional runners by in large with poor running form and higher risk of injury

Yoga, TRX, Crossfit, what ever are supplementary to running and while there may be a cross over benefit it is less deliberate whereas they mentioned above would be designed with purposely within an overall training plan

Personally these responses above are the type of posts I would love to see more of in this forum.

Even when responding to people who are looking for advice, its constructive, informative and even interesting to read for those who are already experienced runners.

Hedgehoggy

This is a great source of expertise for a novice runner like myself. I have been looking for imformation on improving my running times and endurance and I can't believe the advice on here.
My own situation is that I took up running to try to get back into exercise and sports having given up playing football and have fallen in love with it - and I'm realising that I have been making some mistakes in my training!

As part of my 'training to train' I'm thinking of dropping a few pounds - Not overweight or anything but think it could be beneficial. I'm a huge carb lover - porridge, bread, potatoes are staples for me. Just wondering about whether people on here would recommend a high protein diet / low carb diet? Or would a calories in / calories out approach be OK. I eat relatively healthy (but probably like a lot of people could always do better and should definitely cut down on the coffee!!!). Maybe this is very individual?

Also - I've found the 10k training thread that was recommended a few posts back and will give it a go. Is there any book or other reading that people would recommend?

(I'm a complete newbie to boards so maybe this is the wrong thread to post this in?)

skyblue46

Hedgehoggy wrote: »

This is a great source of expertise for a novice runner like myself. I have been looking for imformation on improving my running times and endurance and I can't believe the advice on here.
My own situation is that I took up running to try to get back into exercise and sports having given up playing football and have fallen in love with it - and I'm realising that I have been making some mistakes in my training!

As part of my 'training to train' I'm thinking of dropping a few pounds - Not overweight or anything but think it could be beneficial. I'm a huge carb lover - porridge, bread, potatoes are staples for me. Just wondering about whether people on here would recommend a high protein diet / low carb diet? Or would a calories in / calories out approach be OK. I eat relatively healthy (but probably like a lot of people could always do better and should definitely cut down on the coffee!!!). Maybe this is very individual?

Also - I've found the 10k training thread that was recommended a few posts back and will give it a go. Is there any book or other reading that people would recommend?

(I'm a complete newbie to boards so maybe this is the wrong thread to post this in?)

It's as good a thread as any to start on. Welcome

So what sort of distances are you running, how often do you get out, have you tried any races? A bit of running info like that will help when it comes to people offering advice.

Hedgehoggy

skyblue46 wrote: »

It's as good a thread as any to start on. Welcome

So what sort of distances are you running, how often do you get out, have you tried any races? A bit of running info like that will help when it comes to people offering advice.

Thanks - I'm trying to build up my mileage at the moment. I did a 5k just before Christmas (21.47) and a 10k recently in Feb (46.17). I had done a 10k last May in which I had done a 48.17 - so I am making progress. Aiming for a sub-45 10k this year. Have half an eye to Dublin Marathon - but I'm finding that I love the challenge of getting quicker over 5 and 10ks.

I'm doing about 17 miles per week and have realised from reading this thread that this isnt really enough. I do a lot of 5ks in training - around 3 times a week and one longer run 6 - 8 miles - so I'm thinking of replacing one of these at least with a 30 - 40 min run or tempo run and doing more intervals (e.g. start building up from 5 1k intervals to 10 intervals). Will also start doing a longer run at the end of the week.

The reason I'm asking about the diet really is because I'm enjoying the challenge so much that I want to see just how far I can push myself. Wondering what lifestyle changes I can make to get those extra inches - thinking alcohol is going to go anyway (but I rarely drink anyway so wouldn't be a major change). I'm 5'4'' and just under 9 stone - I guess I'm not looking to lose weight - maybe it would be better to think of it as reducing body mass!

skyblue46

Hedgehoggy wrote: »

Thanks - I'm trying to build up my mileage at the moment. I did a 5k just before Christmas (21.47) and a 10k recently in Feb (46.17). I had done a 10k last May in which I had done a 48.17 - so I am making progress. Aiming for a sub-45 10k this year. Have half an eye to Dublin Marathon - but I'm finding that I love the challenge of getting quicker over 5 and 10ks.

I'm doing about 17 miles per week and have realised from reading this thread that this isnt really enough. I do a lot of 5ks in training - around 3 times a week and one longer run 6 - 8 miles - so I'm thinking of replacing one of these at least with a 30 - 40 min run or tempo run and doing more intervals (e.g. start building up from 5 1k intervals to 10 intervals). Will also start doing a longer run at the end of the week.

The reason I'm asking about the diet really is because I'm enjoying the challenge so much that I want to see just how far I can push myself. Wondering what lifestyle changes I can make to get those extra inches - thinking alcohol is going to go anyway (but I rarely drink anyway so wouldn't be a major change). I'm 5'4'' and just under 9 stone - I guess I'm not looking to lose weight - maybe it would be better to think of it as reducing body mass!

Haha. Well I wouldn't be qualified to give you advice on the rights and wrongs of the number or length of intervals you should do. I'm only running regularly for 11 months now. The advice I have received on here has been invaluable. It's very impressive to be running such times on 17 miles a week training. If you really want to see how far you can push yourself then joining a club is probably the single best thing you could do....says he who still hasn't!!

demfad

Hedgehoggy wrote: »

Thanks - I'm trying to build up my mileage at the moment. I did a 5k just before Christmas (21.47) and a 10k recently in Feb (46.17). I had done a 10k last May in which I had done a 48.17 - so I am making progress. Aiming for a sub-45 10k this year. Have half an eye to Dublin Marathon - but I'm finding that I love the challenge of getting quicker over 5 and 10ks.

I'm doing about 17 miles per week and have realised from reading this thread that this isnt really enough. I do a lot of 5ks in training - around 3 times a week and one longer run 6 - 8 miles - so I'm thinking of replacing one of these at least with a 30 - 40 min run or tempo run and doing more intervals (e.g. start building up from 5 1k intervals to 10 intervals). Will also start doing a longer run at the end of the week.

The reason I'm asking about the diet really is because I'm enjoying the challenge so much that I want to see just how far I can push myself. Wondering what lifestyle changes I can make to get those extra inches - thinking alcohol is going to go anyway (but I rarely drink anyway so wouldn't be a major change). I'm 5'4'' and just under 9 stone - I guess I'm not looking to lose weight - maybe it would be better to think of it as reducing body mass!

Try to aim for 30 miles. Add an extra run every week.
The 5ks are probably tempo efforts so lose one (make it easy and longer) and add a little distance to the other two.
Add in strides. 80- 100m relaxed reps with good form. Start at 6 work up till 10. After easy runs. If I could make changes to my running history it would be increasing mileage early and always incorporating strides.
To encourage try a timetrial over a mile or 3000m every 2-3 weeks. Try and get your mile time down. Youll be doing 5ks, parkruns anyway Im sure.
Gradually increase the weekly long run.

Hedgehoggy

demfad wrote: »

Try to aim for 30 miles. Add an extra run every week.
The 5ks are probably tempo efforts so lose one (make it easy and longer) and add a little distance to the other two.
Add in strides. 80- 100m relaxed reps with good form. Start at 6 work up till 10. After easy runs. If I could make changes to my running history it would be increasing mileage early and always incorporating strides.
To encourage try a timetrial over a mile or 3000m every 2-3 weeks. Try and get your mile time down. Youll be doing 5ks, parkruns anyway Im sure.
Gradually increase the weekly long run.

Thanks demfad - did my first set of strides after an easy run today. Quite a nice way of getting rid of any stress or work frustration!