Are there any differences between having a religion and going to church, to a cult?

Omackeral

I'd say the ubiquitous internet has brought about an enlightenment to many too. Logical, scientific information at your fingertips automatically which you can use to research things and make up your own mind on certain matters.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

for the declining numbers i wonder what the main reasons are?
historic child abuse in the church?
church not modernising and moving with the times?
just that religion is not as important to people as it used to be?
or is it just simply that people are more busier today and just dont have time for church in their lives or have time to go to mass reguarly?

would be fascinating to find out the biggest reason for the decline on the whole

I'd say a large part of it is that people aren't as fearful or ignorant as they are anymore. If the local priest or bishop made a declaration back in the 70s or 80s, it was pretty much taken unchallenged.

Since the early 90s, though, when the decline started (due in no coincidental way to the advent of widely available access to the internet) people can go off and do their own independent research and come back and challenge them. We have far more media and knowledge at our fingertips in this era and it's told us that there is a world and a way outside that of the church, which was pretty much the limits of understanding back then. Yes, there was TV and news, but what we say and heard wasn't under our control the way it is now.

And the fact that a lot of what was being said by the cleegy was either scaremongering out outright lying hasn't helped their reputation.

Berserker

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Perhaps Steve grows up to be a tyrant ten times worse than Hitler?

Or Steve's spirit is much more in demand in the next plane of existence where we could be the only one who can save it?

Prove me wrong!

Or it may be the case that a cure for cancer may be found whilst helping Steve deal with his tumour?

Omackeral wrote: »

I'd say the ubiquitous internet has brought about an enlightenment to many too. Logical, scientific information at your fingertips automatically which you can use to research things and make up your own mind on certain matters.

Plenty of nonsense that you'd take with a pinch of salt on the internet. My OH is an A&E doctor and you wouldn't believe the amount of 'enlightened folk' who turn to religion in their hour of need. Some of the busiest people in the hospital are the chaplains.

Andy From Sligo

we could all turn to religion in our time of need - if anything happened/happens with my family (IE their health/life) i could pray just as good as anybody . i wasnt brought up to be religious (well I did go to sunday school when I was 6, but thats irrelevant maybe because that was so long ago) but i was taught that God (if there is such a thing) listens to everyone whether they be religious believers or not.

I say things like 'God bless' and 'thanks be to God' loads of times to people on my course of life even though I am not religious ... thats not for my benefit at all really, its for theirs especially if they are religious or get some comfort from their religion.

donegaLroad

the first 5 minutes are worth a look

the main argument of the clip is that Christianity =Sun worship (nothing new about this)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJoLzIHFZFU

feargale

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

well?

I'm bored, and my mind always wanders when i'm bored....

what prompts me to write at this particular time - well the Cult storyline thats just been on Fair City lol

And people going on Lent starting yesterday -brainwashed into punishing themselves and giving up something for 6 weeks just for the sake of it - im fecked if i would do it, but each to their own I suppose ...

I was actually looking forward to Ash Wednesday. I've been over-indulging a bit since Christmas and need to get back in trim.

This is my take on it, nothing to do with religion. Fasting has traditionally been regarded as a healthy pursuit and not just by Christians, but by Muslims and Jews too. Old fashioned fasting may not be as good as a diet sheet supplied by your doctor, but as sure as hell it's one up on all the greedy sons o' bitches out there who want to commercially exploit your plight with no regard to your well-being. Think the loudly proclaimed "fat-free" this and that which is saturated with sugar. Think the "health" shops run by people who have no training in nutrition, whose sole motivation is profit and who will flog what they can to you. Think the "health" bars, one of which was demonstrated on tv here not so long ago to have no benefit whatever to your health.

Why do I do it on Ash Wednesday? Because there's a better chance of holding one's resolve when others are doing it. Tell yourself you will start on 1st. May, and when the day comes it's all too easy to tell yourself you will postpone it for a week, and then it just doesn't get done. But you know that if you don't knuckle down on Ash Wednesday you can forget it. Ditto November.

But don't let the occasion deter you from having a bash if you are determined to take every opportunity that presents itself to do so, if your religious upbringing was so awful that you are determined to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Deusexmachina

Omackeral wrote: »

Letting kids die from painful cancer is the height of geebaggery is it not?

The Stephen Fry argument. Wafer thin.

Stonedpilot

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

well?

I'm bored, and my mind always wanders when i'm bored....

what prompts me to write at this particular time - well the Cult storyline thats just been on Fair City lol

And people going on Lent starting yesterday -brainwashed into punishing themselves and giving up something for 6 weeks just for the sake of it - im fecked if i would do it, but each to their own I suppose ...

You can go to church and not be in a "religion" as such. Pastor of my Church rallies against religion all the time as Jesus did in Matthew.

Jesus saves from religion!


Many religions are cults ie mind washing cult Islam is the following of the moon God Ra.

Charmeleon

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'd say a large part of it is that people aren't as fearful or ignorant as they are anymore. If the local priest or bishop made a declaration back in the 70s or 80s, it was pretty much taken unchallenged.

Since the early 90s, though, when the decline started (due in no coincidental way to the advent of widely available access to the internet) people can go off and do their own independent research and come back and challenge them. We have far more media and knowledge at our fingertips in this era and it's told us that there is a world and a way outside that of the church, which was pretty much the limits of understanding back then. Yes, there was TV and news, but what we say and heard wasn't under our control the way it is now.

And the fact that a lot of what was being said by the cleegy was either scaremongering out outright lying hasn't helped their reputation.

The problem with that argument is that the easy availability of factual information on the internet has not prevented the massive rise of conspiracy theories, new age woo, anti-vaxx, cults of ‘isms’ and other irrational belief systems.

Omackeral

Deusexmachina wrote: »

The Stephen Fry argument. Wafer thin.

I've thought that for years before that pompous sap said it. Dispute it rather than just call it out in a contrary manner. Or any of the other points made in that post.

Wheety

No difference at all. The Catholic Church is just a very big successful cult. I only go to church for weddings or funerals and I don't join in with the chants/prayers. It's scary listening to everyone else doing it though. Exactly like a cult in a movie. Everyone saying the same thing together. :eek:

I feel the same way about all religions, so not just having a go.

Deusexmachina

Omackeral wrote: »

I've thought that for years before that pompous sap said it. Dispute it rather than just call it out in a contrary manner. Or any of the other points made in that post.

Is there a God? The only honest answer is that we don’t know. There is no evidence to prove the existence of a divine being. At the same time, science offers us no understanding of why the Universe exists or what constitutes the life force that makes our existence as sentient beings occur.

Therefore, trying to judge a God on his/her actions, motivations or morals is nonsense. We know almost nothing about anything that really matters.

Omackeral

That's why I said if there's a God, he's a bit kunty. If. Letting people get raped and all.

Wheety

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Is there a God? The only honest answer is that we don’t know. There is no evidence to prove the existence of a divine being. At the same time, science offers us no understanding of why the Universe exists or what constitutes the life force that makes our existence as sentient beings occur.

Therefore, trying to judge a God on his/her actions, motivations or morals is nonsense. We know almost nothing about anything that really matters.

Science can't offer proof because no proof exists of how the Universe was formed. I'm not sure what sort of evidence you'd expect.

There are theories though which are formed by some of the very best minds, based on other evidence.

beefburrito

Didn't Hitches once say if there was an after life and he met God.
He'd ask him why didn't he give us evidence of his existence....

ohnonotgmail

doolox wrote: »

....where it is actually 47 because the Sundays are not included but they are holy days so you still cannot do the naughty thing you have given up for Lent so it is all a con, the aren't honest to tell the sheep it is actually 47 days until Easter.


Giving up stuff is part of a lot of religions, the Muslims give up eating for Ramadam. They must have some fall back as a human cannot survive long without some food.

Lenten observance runs from the first sunday of lent to the evening of Holy Thursday. So 40 days.

Deusexmachina

Wheety wrote: »

Science can't offer proof because no proof exists of how the Universe was formed. I'm not sure what sort of evidence you'd expect.

There are theories though which are formed by some of the very best minds, based on other evidence.

I said 'why" not 'how'

Nettle Soup

Omackeral wrote: »

I'd say the ubiquitous internet has brought about an enlightenment to many too. Logical, scientific information at your fingertips automatically which you can use to research things and make up your own mind on certain matters.

Yes I believe this is key to the decline of religion in the western world.
Information brings Enlightenment.

Nettle Soup

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

The intellectual abandonment of God may limit the passing down of moral values to future generations.

To be atheist and to intellectually put belief in God to scientific scrutiny is a lazy and shallow thought process.

God is the Self. He is our collective consciousness. Unfortunately I don’t think the clergy people even get that. What hope have we.

Utter nonsense and you know it. It's cult speak.

You do not need a religion to have morals.

Andy From Sligo

Wheety wrote: »

No difference at all. The Catholic Church is just a very big successful cult. I only go to church for weddings or funerals and I don't join in with the chants/prayers. It's scary listening to everyone else doing it though. Exactly like a cult in a movie. Everyone saying the same thing together. :eek:

I feel the same way about all religions, so not just having a go.

its very freaky! - and if a person came upon a lot of people chanting like that in unison and not used to that, i think they might be questioning the sanity of these (brainwashed maybe?) people in the church mass (cult congregation?)

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Yes I believe this is key to the decline of religion in the western world.
Information brings Enlightenment.

As a headline once read "The Problem for the church is that the flock is no longer made up of sheep"

Deusexmachina

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Yes I believe this is key to the decline of religion in the western world.
Information brings Enlightenment.

We have no new information on the key questions of our why the Universe exists, what gives us life..etc

We are no further along than our ancestors. In fact, maybe we are moving away from some deeper truths

ohnonotgmail

Deusexmachina wrote: »

We have no new information on the key questions of our why the Universe exists, what gives us life..etc

We are no further along than our ancestors. In fact, maybe we are moving away from some deeper truths

Except religion has always tried to explain the HOW and not just the WHY. And we know a lot more about the HOW than we ever have.

the_syco

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

well?

Not really. At least when you're watching football, you're prayers may be answered :P

Nettle Soup

Deusexmachina wrote: »

We have no new information on the key questions of our why the Universe exists, what gives us life..etc

We are no further along than our ancestors. In fact, maybe we are moving away from some deeper truths

Correct but neither should we believe the stuff that was made up my men to answer these questions.

Deusexmachina

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Except religion has always tried to explain the HOW and not just the WHY. And we know a lot more about the HOW than we ever have.

Eh, no.
'Let there be light' is hardly an attempt to explain how the Universe was formed.

Deusexmachina

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Correct but neither should we believe the stuff that was made up my men to answer these questions.

As I said above. We have no answers - either man made or divine.

ohnonotgmail

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Eh, no.
'Let there be light' is hardly an attempt to explain how the Universe was formed.

The bible is presented as an historical account of the creation of mankind. The catholic church at least have rowed back on that now as it makes them looks like eejits but they did certainly present it as a factual account. Some religious types still accept it as a factual account.

Wheety

Deusexmachina wrote: »

I said 'why" not 'how'

That's a ridiculous question. You're asking why the universe exists?

Do you think there has to be a why?

Deusexmachina

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The bible is presented as an historical account of the creation of mankind. The catholic church at least have rowed back on that now as it makes them looks like eejits but they did certainly present it as a factual account. Some religious types still accept it as a factual account.

Thats really not the case. They insisted that everything in it was true. But that's not the same as saying it is an historial account of the creation of mankind.
Yes there are nut jobs called creationists. But they are not significant in the 2000 year history of Chriatianity.