Irish Language Act in the North: Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal?

FrancieBrady

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

I was going to suggest that, but surely even the trump admin aren't that dumb?

Seems like a logical explanation though.

With junior in rant mode these days will they notice the difference?

recedite

Its all about the optics. The chuckle brothers are now dead, but the Whitehouse prefers to invite people who will represent that kind of reconciliation, in some way, even if its just by association or name.

If they invited the actual leaders, they would be a symbol of current failings, as opposed to good memories.

recedite

jm08 wrote: »

no reason why a British person would get involved in an Irish celebration.

Downpatrick

The Fleg

FrancieBrady

A decent journalist should ask the White House what they mean. Because I can't figure it out.

Maybe Foster and O'Neill declined to be in Trumps company (or one of them did)?

jm08

recedite wrote: »

Downpatrick

The Fleg

Oh, good. I can't wait to see Gregory Campbell & Nigel Dodds leading out the St. Patrick's Day Parade in Belfast.

recedite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Maybe Foster and O'Neill declined to be in Trumps company (or one of them did)?

There's a gig coming up soon on 17th in the White House, and its hard to find a decent comedy duo these days.
There's always the chance that the ladies would try to get a dig in against Trump, and we can't be having that.
Whereas Gerry will be guaranteed to behave himself because he has been desperately trying to get a ticket to the gig for years. Also Gerry has something in common with The Donald; both have always played by their own rules in clawing their way to the top.
Paisley Junior should do what is expected of him, and provide some novelty entertainment value to the assembled US dignitaries. Does he drink champagne, or is he a teetotaller?

recedite

jm08 wrote: »

Oh, good. I can't wait to see Gregory Campbell & Nigel Dodds leading out the St. Patrick's Day Parade in Belfast.

Something like that could happen, in the far distant future.
It's not written in stone that Paddys Day and Easter must always be shinnerfests in Norn Iron.

FrancieBrady

recedite wrote: »

There's a gig coming up soon on 17th in the White House, and its hard to find a decent comedy duo these days.
There's always the chance that the ladies would try to get a dig in against Trump, and we can't be having that.
Whereas Gerry will be guaranteed to behave himself because he has been desperately trying to get a ticket to the gig for years. Also Gerry has something in common with The Donald; both have always played by their own rules in clawing their way to the top.
Paisley Junior should do what is expected of him, and provide some novelty entertainment value to the assembled US dignitaries. Does he drink champagne, or is he a teetotaller?

Point of information: Gerry started at the top. No clawing required.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Point of information: Gerry started at the top. No clawing required.

Gerry only became leader of Sinn Fein in 1983, yet he was active in republican circles long before that.

Are you suggesting he held some other leadership position in the republican movement?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Gerry only became leader of Sinn Fein in 1983, yet he was active in republican circles long before that.

Are you suggesting he held some other leadership position in the republican movement?

First time he stood for leadership of SF = elected.

First time he stood as an MP = elected

Edit: Nearly forgot ; first time he stood for the Dail = elected.

jm08

recedite wrote: »

Something like that could happen, in the far distant future.
It's not written in stone that Paddys Day and Easter must always be shinnerfests in Norn Iron.

St. Patrick's day was a religious (RC) occasion up to fairly recently. Not sure any Orange Order members would be up for that. The DUP won't refer to the Good Friday Agreement as the GFA (because of its RC connotations). They always refer to it as the Belfast Agreement, so I'd say its more that unionists have disowned St. Patrick's Day & Easter, rather than the SF turning them into a sinnerfest.

recedite

blanch152 wrote: »

Gerry only became leader of Sinn Fein in 1983, yet he was active in republican circles long before that.

Are you suggesting he held some other leadership position in the republican movement?

jm08 wrote: »

St. Patrick's day was a religious (RC) occasion up to fairly recently.

Christmas day still is, but that doesn't mean any one religion owns it.
Anyway, keep your eye on the skyline this Paddy's Day and you can still see the odd St. Patrick's flag flying, even around Dublin. They are way outnumbered by tricolours of course, but still around.

jm08

recedite wrote: »

Christmas day still is, but that doesn't mean any one religion owns it.

No parades on Christmas Day.

Anyway, keep your eye on the skyline this Paddy's Day and you can still see the odd St. Patrick's flag flying, even around Dublin. They are way outnumbered by tricolours of course, but still around.

I'll look forward to see them flown in the Belfast Parade.

Edward M

jm08 wrote: »

No parades on Christmas Day.



I'll look forward to see them flown in the Belfast Parade.

Someone thinks St Patrick was a protestant.

http://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/01/22/news/-protestant-st-patrick-row-sparks-religious-debate-390776/

Jawgap

blanch152 wrote: »

Gerry only became leader of Sinn Fein in 1983, yet he was active in republican circles long before that.

Are you suggesting he held some other leadership position in the republican movement?

Maybe he got a lateral transfer

FrancieBrady

jm08 wrote: »

St. Patrick's day was a religious (RC) occasion up to fairly recently. Not sure any Orange Order members would be up for that. The DUP won't refer to the Good Friday Agreement as the GFA (because of its RC connotations). They always refer to it as the Belfast Agreement, so I'd say its more that unionists have disowned St. Patrick's Day & Easter, rather than the SF turning them into a sinnerfest.

There is nothing particularly 'RC' about 'Good Friday', I think the DUP were being more juvenile than that with the agreement's name, doing the same as what they did with Brexit - took an opposing position/name for the sake of it.

FrancieBrady

Junior setting the DUP up to fire a round at the other foot?

Mr Paisley said that Northern Ireland and the United states have a special relationship.

“It's an honour to meet the President of the United States but especially so as our two nations embark upon extending the special relationship in trade and culture," he said.

"I will dine with the President and also attend a White House reception. I will be encouraging him to continue to support Northern Ireland. Our cultures are tied by history and trade. We must continue to develop such links.”

For Forks Sake

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Junior setting the DUP up to fire a round at the other foot?

Good luck with that Ian , I somehow doubt Trump would be able to find Ballymena on a map

recedite

jm08 wrote: »

No parades on Christmas Day.
I'll look forward to see them flown in the Belfast Parade.

I'm not sure what your point is, but if you are somehow saying that the parade was originally a catholic religious event, and for that reason protestants/unionists want no part in it, you are wrong.
St. Patrick is the patron saint of all Ireland, and not just nationalists.

By the same token, St George and the St. George fleg is for all England, not just white anglo-saxon far-right supporting Englishmen.

jm08

recedite wrote: »

I'm not sure what your point is, but if you are somehow saying that the parade was originally a catholic religious event, and for that reason protestants/unionists want no part in it, you are wrong.
St. Patrick is the patron saint of all Ireland, and not just nationalists.

By the same token, St George and the St. George fleg is for all England, not just white anglo-saxon far-right supporting Englishmen.

I'm saying that up to a few years ago, St. Patrick's Day was a religious day for all the Christians on the island of Ireland (St. Patrick brought Christianity to Ireland, not Catholicism or Protestantism). I'm well aware that St. Patrick is the patron saint for all Christians in Ireland (I live about a mile away from St. Patrick's Cathedral).

You blame Sinn Fein for hijacking St. Patrick's Day - the truth of the matter is that if anyone hijacked it, it is Failte Ireland.

recedite

jm08 wrote: »

You blame Sinn Fein for hijacking St. Patrick's Day - the truth of the matter is that if anyone hijacked it, it is Failte Ireland.

Maybe in RoI, but you can't blame Failte Ireland for turning the day into a shinnerfest in NI.

FrancieBrady

recedite wrote: »

Maybe in RoI, but you can't blame Failte Ireland for turning the day into a shinnerfest in NI.

How is it a 'shinnerrfest'?
Do SDLP and those not interested in politics not take part/organise their own?

jm08

recedite wrote: »

Maybe in RoI, but you can't blame Failte Ireland for turning the day into a shinnerfest in NI.

And what is a Shinnerfest? I've looked at some images of the Parade in Belfast and it isn't any different to the one in Dublin (except on scale maybe).

recedite

jm08 wrote: »

I've looked at some images of the Parade in Belfast and it isn't any different to the one in Dublin (except on scale maybe).

Even if its the same, its different. A band of pipers marching under a tricolour means something different up there.

FrancieBrady

recedite wrote: »

Even if its the same, its different. A band of pipers marching under a tricolour means something different up there.

Only 'different' to those who are seen as alien by other British people when they wave their flag of choice around.

blanch152

https://www.independent.ie/videos/irish-news/video-gerry-adams-and-mary-lou-mcdonald-give-taoiseach-standing-ovation-36703724.html#play


The things one has to do for one's country.

I would guess that Gerry and Mary-Lou found this the hardest thing they have ever had to do in politics.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/videos/irish-news/video-gerry-adams-and-mary-lou-mcdonald-give-taoiseach-standing-ovation-36703724.html#play


The things one has to do for one's country.

I would guess that Gerry and Mary-Lou found this the hardest thing they have ever had to do in politics.

Why? I reward the pup here with praise and encouragement when he does what I want him to do.
Leo is currently doing and saying what SF and nationalists want him to do and say in relation to northern Ireland.

jm08

recedite wrote: »

Even if its the same, its different. A band of pipers marching under a tricolour means something different up there.

Except from the photos I've looked at (search Belfast St. Patricks Day Parade), there are no tricolours. Everyone seems to be flying green flags with a white shamrock.

Does that suggest that the Shinners have nothing to do with it then?

Jawgap

potentially an even greater own goal......

Sinn Féin MLAs ‘very uneasy’ about abortion policy

Mr Brolly said he was in contact with MLAs and had previously written to them requesting their support for a free vote in Sinn Féin on abortion.

He achieved a “lot of support, although they are not going to be upfront and vocal” and claimed it was “fundamentally wrong” and “fascist” not to allow a free vote. Sinn Féin has rejected motions calling for free votes at a number of ardfheisheanna.

I guess the last thing SF want is people voting their conscience who knows where radical ideas like free votes might lead........

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

potentially an even greater own goal......

Sinn Féin MLAs ‘very uneasy’ about abortion policy



I guess the last thing SF want is people voting their conscience who knows where radical ideas like free votes might lead........

More of an own goal than facilitating the defection of a number of high profile TD's and the establishment of a new competing political party?

I think all parties are struggling on this issue tbh and fair.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

More of an own goal than facilitating the defection of a number of high profile TD's and the establishment of a new competing political party?

I think all parties are struggling on this issue tbh and fair.

.......and what happened to those TDs and what happened to the party they left?

.....I think most parties, like most people, recognise the nature of the issue and therefore opted for free votes - but I guess SF are not most parties and, as I posted, allowing free votes is just not in their DNA - sure people might get a bit of a taste for that kind of party democracy.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

.......and what happened to those TDs and what happened to the party they left?

.....I think most parties, like most people, recognise the nature of the issue and therefore opted for free votes - but I guess SF are not most parties and, as I posted, allowing free votes is just not in their DNA - sure people might get a bit of a taste for that kind of party democracy.

Ignorance of the events tripping you up again.

The party had a free vote on it's position.

Allowing individual members a 'free vote' after that democratic party decision flies in the face of being in a party in the first place.

Those with a problem should be like me, don't be in a political party if you cannot accept that you are going to have to toe the party line when that party wants to change legislation/the constitution etc.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ignorance of the events tripping you up again.

The party had a free vote on it's position.

Allowing individual members a 'free vote' after that democratic party decision flies in the face of being in a party in the first place.

Those with a problem should be like me, don't be in a political party if you cannot accept that you are going to have to toe the party line when that party wants to change legislation/the constitution etc.

Love it - Spin Fein at it's best :D:D

They had a free vote to bind members in to an absolute party position - a free vote to deny a future free vote - honestly, if George Orwell came up with some of the stuff that came out of SF he'd never have been published for excess of such ridiculousness in his writings.

......and do tell, when this 'free vote' was held, was the idea of "Repeal and Replace' along with abortion without restriction up to 12 weeks being touted as future government policy? I'm sure you can post evidence to show it was

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Love it - Spin Fein at it's best :D:D

They had a free vote to bind members in to an absolute party position - a free vote to deny a future free vote - honestly, if George Orwell came up with some of the stuff that came out of SF he'd never have been published for excess of such ridiculousness in his writings.

......and do tell, when this 'free vote' was held, was the idea of "Repeal and Replace' along with abortion without restriction up to 12 weeks being touted as future government policy? I'm sure you can post evidence to show it was

First of all could you explain what you mean by the bolded bit?

They had a vote at an Ard Fheis on what the party position would be on the 8th Amendment.

Is this the delegates where either 'drugged, intimidated, hypontised into following the directions of old beardy RA men from the hills of South Armagh' slant again? Coz I'm out if it is this nonsense.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

First of all could you explain what you mean by the bolded bit?

They had a vote at an Ard Fheis on what the party position would be on the 8th Amendment.

Is this the delegates where either 'drugged, intimidated, hypontised into following the directions of old beardy RA men from the hills of South Armagh' slant again? Coz I'm out if it is this nonsense.

Well I think it's self-explanatory so feel free to take the words at their ordinary meeting......

......kind of curious that if, as you suggest, the party position is so settled and everyone is so comfortable with it why should such an article appear?

Indeed, why would an apparent party loyalist be moved to use the word "fascist" when describing the party of which he is a member.....

Mr Brolly...... claimed it was “fundamentally wrong” and “fascist” not to allow a free vote. Sinn Féin has rejected motions calling for free votes at a number of ardfheisheanna.

......but per your mantra - nothing to see here?

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Well I think it's self-explanatory so feel free to take the words at their ordinary meeting......

......kind of curious that if, as you suggest, the party position is so settled and everyone is so comfortable with it why should such an article appear?

Indeed, why would an apparent party loyalist be moved to use the word "fascist" when describing the party of which he is a member.....



......but per your mantra - nothing to see here?

Maybe Brolly should join Renua and see how he gets on>

The party, it seems to me, decided democratically at an Ard Fheis what it's 'party' position would be. And, as is right, may need to convene another Ard Fheis to refine their position.

Like all parties, there are some who are struggling with it, as most people do struggle with this issue.

Of course, as is usual, there is a media waiting with open arms (and Boardsies) to portray this as being unique to SF.

If you are in a political party only as long as it represents your private views, then I am sorry, that isn't how it works.
It is why I could never be a member of any party.

McMurphy

recedite wrote: »

Maybe in RoI, but you can't blame Failte Ireland for turning the day into a shinnerfest in NI.

Complete and utter horse manure.

If any kind of "fest" exists in the north on St Patrick's day, it's from local communities and the AOH, who usually commence their local parades after mass.

It's not a day of note in the republican calender at all.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Maybe Brolly should join Renua and see how he gets on>

The party, it seems to me, decided democratically at an Ard Fheis what it's 'party' position would be. And, as is right, may need to convene another Ard Fheis to refine their position.

Like all parties, there are some who are struggling with it, as most people do struggle with this issue.

Of course, as is usual, there is a media waiting with open arms (and Boardsies) to portray this as being unique to SF.

If you are in a political party only as long as it represents your private views, then I am sorry, that isn't how it works.
It is why I could never be a member of any party.

Well that's not how SF works, but plenty of political parties - including those that are the most successful in the Republic at getting into and staying in power - manage to accommodate a plurality of views.

Indeed, it's more than arguable that the competition of ideas that such plurality fosters, is to the betterment of the party........as LBJ said "better to have them inside the tent......etc etc etc"

The idea that if you disagree you should leave is very SF and one of the reasons why their ideas lack imagination and are driven by populism.

Should the TDs and councillors who marched with Brolly (per the article) also leave SF?

McMurphy

Jawgap wrote: »

Well that's not how SF works, but plenty of political parties - including those that are the most successful in the Republic at getting into and staying in power - manage to accommodate a plurality of views.

Indeed, it's more than arguable that the competition of ideas that such plurality fosters, is to the betterment of the party........as LBJ said "better to have them inside the tent......etc etc etc"

The idea that if you disagree you should leave is very SF and one of the reasons why their ideas lack imagination and are driven by populism.

Should the TDs and councillors who marched with Brolly (per the article) also leave SF?

What's Lucinda at these days?

Jawgap

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

What's Lucinda at these days?

Which kind of proves the point - no one forced her to leave (FG are not SF), and FG went on to stay in power and allow their reps a free vote and to campaign in a way that sits comfortably with their conscience.

I would've thought SF would simply do the same - but their again they may regard such freedoms as dangerous.

McMurphy

Jawgap wrote: »

Which kind of proves the point - no one forced her to leave (FG are not SF), and FG went on to stay in power and allow their reps a free vote and to campaign in a way that sits comfortably with their conscience.

I would've thought SF would simply do the same - but their again they may regard such freedoms as dangerous.

That's not true.

She was automatically expelled from the party, and she is on record of stating that Enda personally asked her to resign.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Which kind of proves the point - no one forced her to leave (FG are not SF), and FG went on to stay in power and allow their reps a free vote and to campaign in a way that sits comfortably with their conscience.

I would've thought SF would simply do the same - but their again they may regard such freedoms as dangerous.

Who was forced to leave SF?
Peadar Tobin is in there fighting for his views.


Allowing a free vote when you are paying lipservice to legislative change is contrary to the point of a 'political party' and is a form of cowardice too.
All political parties use the whip when it suits them.

Why not just all be independents?

Cheap shot again Jawgap.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who was forced to leave SF?
Peadar Tobin is in there fighting for his views.


Allowing a free vote when you are paying lipservice to legislative change is contrary to the point of a 'political party' and is a form of cowardice too.
All political parties use the whip when it suits them.

Why not just all be independents?

Cheap shot again Jawgap.

Have SF not expelled people for 'uncomradely behaviour'?

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Have SF not expelled people for 'uncomradely behaviour'?

Have they expelled anyone over their 8th position?

All parties have to expel members for 'uncomradely behaviour'.

Do we need to go into the lists again? :rolleyes:

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Have they expelled anyone over their 8th position?

All parties have to expel members for 'uncomradely behaviour'.

Do we need to go into the lists again? :rolleyes:

Did I say they had - I just pointed out that SF, more than most, has a bit of a track record of expelling people for uncomradely behaviour.

McMurphy

Jawgap wrote: »

Did I say they had - I just pointed out that SF, more than most, has a bit of a track record of expelling people for uncomradely behaviour.

There goes the goalposts.

Your position shifted yet again I see.

The idea that if you disagree you should leave is very SF and one of the reasons why their ideas lack imagination and are driven by populism

What's Lucinda at these days?

no one forced her to leave

She was automatically expelled from the party, and she is on record of stating that Enda personally asked her to resign

Jawgap

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

That's not true.

She was automatically expelled from the party, and she is on record of stating that Enda personally asked her to resign.

She was dumped from the PP for defying the whip and resigned as an MoS......

......however, she's pretty clear that she left FG - she wasn't expelled from the party.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Did I say they had - I just pointed out that SF, more than most, has a bit of a track record of expelling people for uncomradely behaviour.

So much ado about nothing only a pretty shocking bias then. :rolleyes:

McMurphy

Jawgap wrote: »

She was dumped from the PP for defying the whip and resigned as an MoS......

......however, she's pretty clear that she left FG - she wasn't expelled from the party.

Paschal Donohoe has been appointed Minister of State for European Affairs after Lucinda Creighton voted against the Government in a vote on the abortion legislation.

Ms Creighton has been automatically expelled from the Fine Gael parliamentary party as a result.

Really?

Jawgap

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Really?

yes, really -

Renua Ireland leader Lucinda Creighton has insisted she has no regrets about leaving Fine Gael, claiming it is an undemocratic party.

....and where does the link you posted say whe was expelled from FG?

It says she was expelled from the PP.....

Ms Creighton has been automatically expelled from the Fine Gael parliamentary party as a result.

.....but losing a party whip doesn't automaticatically mean loss of membership of the wider party.