Irish Language Act in the North: Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal?

FrancieBrady

tayto lover wrote: »

No, Never, We shall overcome, No surrender, Tiocfaidh ar la, Ulster Says No etc etc are all the same Francie. Language of the past that has no place anymore if we are to move on and grow.

Again, deflect all you want from the question, it just shows you are not willing to be honest here.

There is ONE side that has abjectly failed to deliver on the GFA (and subsequent agreements) commitments.
Probably because they have been appeased again and again>

One side has rightly said 'enough is enough'.

Colonel Claptrap

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

'Tiocfaidh lmeans 'Our day will come' - It is a message of hope & optimism - it is about the future, not the past.

It's a loaded term for many people. Hearing Mary Lou uttering it on the radio was jarring. I didn't feel hope or optimism. Far from it.

FrancieBrady

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

It's a loaded term for many people. Hearing Mary Lou uttering it on the radio was jarring. I didn't feel hope or optimism. Far from it.

Don't get trapped into the mistake of falling for the faux outrage. It is designed to try and keep SF on the back foot.
There is no real problem with this phrase that has been used for decades. Ask Peter Robinson.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/peter-robinsons-parting-words-in-irish-spark-laughs-as-he-exclaims-tiocfaidh-r-l-34279641.html

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It doesn't matter what 'age' the DUP come from or SF for that matter. You could characterise the headlong rush to Brexit as Stone Age thinking.

.

You could characterise Brexit as Stone Age thinking, but that is just more whataboutery. Both SF and the DUP are stuck far in the past, fighting old battles.

tayto lover wrote: »

No, Never, We shall overcome, No surrender, Tiocfaidh ar la, Ulster Says No etc etc are all the same Francie. Language of the past that has no place anymore if we are to move on and grow.

I fully agree. St. Patrick's Day has become a day of fun, not of hostility to others. The same needs to happen to the 12th, but also to the Easter commemorations, particularly the separate and alone commemorations that SF indulge themselves in.

The language of the paramilitary - Tiocfaidh ar La - and the symbolism - badges in the SF online shop - need to be permanently ditched if we are to have true reconciliation.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that either side in the North is currently capable of normal behaviour. Until they learn, the less we have to do with them, the better.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

You could characterise Brexit as Stone Age thinking, but that is just more whataboutery. Both SF and the DUP are stuck far in the past, fighting old battles.






I fully agree. St. Patrick's Day has become a day of fun, not of hostility to others. The same needs to happen to the 12th, but also to the Easter commemorations, particularly the separate and alone commemorations that SF indulge themselves in.

The language of the paramilitary - Tiocfaidh ar La - and the symbolism - badges in the SF online shop - need to be permanently ditched if we are to have true reconciliation.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that either side in the North is currently capable of normal behaviour. Until they learn, the less we have to do with them, the better.

Saint Patrick's day celebrates our patron saint of the island - celebrated internationally by all walks of life.

The twelfth is a day where a group (or groups) from one religion celebrates its triumphalism over another religion, by organisations who actively forbid their members from marrying people from Roman Catholic backgrounds - that is the epitome of sectarianism and bigotry.

Comparing, or trying to place it anywhere near saint Patrick's day celebrations is lunacy on an astronomical level.

Junkyard Tom

An ILA which all the non-unionist parties, and a majority of MLA's, support has become a totemic issue, a test, to see if unionists can accommodate nationalist culture as analogous cultures in Wales and Scotland have been.

Unionism has failed the test and on its current path unionism is doomed.

As former DUP leader Peter Robinson said:

“For unionism to prosper in the decades to come it must be inclusive and not exclusive ... Unionism must reach far beyond its traditional base if it is to maximise its potential. That means forming a pro-Union consensus with people from different religious and community backgrounds.”

I didn't think a UI would happen in my lifetime and didn't really care once the north was at peace and there was equal treatment for everyone. Now I think it's a real possibility thanks to the DUP and Brexit.

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Saint Patrick's day celebrates our patron saint of the island - celebrated internationally by all walks of life.

The twelfth is a day where a group (or groups) from one religion celebrates its triumphalism over another religion, by organisations who actively forbid their members from marrying people from Roman Catholic backgrounds - that is the epitome of sectarianism and bigotry.

Comparing, or trying to place it anywhere near saint Patrick's day celebrations is lunacy on an astronomical level.

St. Patrick's Day celebrates the triumph of Christianity over paganism, how is it different?

nuac

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I'm curious to know why SF didn't agree to a consolidated minorities language act. Granted that Scots Gaelic isn't a real language, but what would have been the downside of recognition of that also?

Seems to me that what's going on is point scoring on both sides instead of compromise.

IMHO Scots-Gaelic is a real language.

If you were thinking of Ulster-Scots, that imho is at most a subdialect of a dialect, spoken in a broad Ballymena accent

mollygreene

Matt Barrett wrote:

The facts are both the DUP and SF were ready to make concessions on Ulster Scots and Irish recognising both. Grassroots DUP told Foster no way and that was the end of it. She tried to paint it another way but that's simply false spin. Others either ignorant or bias are trying to make it all about SF. Nonsense. It's about Foster trying to maintain broad support.

Exactly.

This whole thread is essentially just slagging Sinn Féin, when in reality 5 other parties in Stormont are also in favour of the ILA.

St Andrew's agreement lads. This isn't Sinn Féin throwing their toys out of their pram - they are (along with other parties) honouring previous agreements.

I feel it's the DUP who have scored the own goal.

nuac

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Speaking for the 'majorities' again.

Anyone with an independent eye would see that one party has fully lived up to it's commitments under the GFA and subsequent agreements to allow northern Ireland to be governed and one party has dragged it's feet again and again and again until the entire process collapsed.

Of course somebody ill informed is gonna say that the easiest way to progress is to pretend and paper over cracks and to appease.

It's painful to read this bias born commentary and not really interested in debating with someone who willfully ignores what is happening and why it is happening.

Have you forgotten the Decommissioning Process, which was drawn out for as long as possible to extract political gains for SF?

riffmongous

Did anyone see the BBC Newsnight interview with Gregory Campbell a few days ago?

The interviewer really puts it up to him, which was a bit surprising. And I'm starting to think, as was said earlier, that the best thing SF can actually do at the moment is play the long game, especially while the DUP hold the balance of power in Westminster. Stay out of power and call the DUP out on as many petty issues as possible.. as the WM deal has really cast a spotlight on the DUP and it's highlighting the ugly nasty side of the party to those in the rest of the UK, who don't seem to have been very aware of the party until now and look at each new 'DUP collapse talks' article with bewilderment and exasperation, like in the interview above

tayto lover

[QUOTE=FrancieBrady;106169439]Again, deflect all you want from the question, it just shows you are not willing to be honest here.

There is ONE side that has abjectly failed to deliver on the GFA (and subsequent agreements) commitments.
Probably because they have been appeased again and again>

One side has rightly said 'enough is enough'.[/QUOTE]
I am not deflecting at all, just saying what I see.
I have no time for politicians of any hue and colour.
I have time for the man on the street who is the loser in all of this.
And again all that language and slogan stuff is language of the past. It has no place in any arrangements or talks for the future.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

St. Patrick's Day celebrates the triumph of Christianity over paganism, how is it different?

Get back to me when the loyal green lodge of saint Patrick's worshippers start banning its members from marrying people from non Christian religious denominations.

As already said, and I have said last night, the common misconception (wilful ignorance imo) from the usual anti anything to do with Sinn Fein or republicanism as a whole, is that this is a Sinn Fein demand alone, it's not this act has the support of no less than 5 other mainstream party's from the north, 50/90 of its members.

The DUP are doing what they always do, but they will end up where they always end up, conceding regardless.

Civil rights.
GFA
RUC disbandment and restructured
North South institutions
Union flag being flown on certain days only.

All of which they foughht tooth and nail, but happened anyway.

Unionism is on a fast track into a cul de sac.

McMurphy

tayto lover wrote: »

I am not deflecting at all, just saying what I see.
I have no time for politicians of any hue and colour.
I have time for the man on the street who is the loser in all of this.
And again all that language and slogan stuff is language of the past. It has no place in any arrangements or talks for the future.

Ultimately it boils down to mutual respect. Something the DUP never wished to do (see my above post)

Something I do think they should look into, perhaps a slight retweaking of the act is needed. Maybe try renaming it the "Gaelic language act"

I dunno how unionists could oppose any act that already exists in another part of Britain tbh without being pointed and laughed at foe the hypocrites they really are.

FrancieBrady

nuac wrote: »

Have you forgotten the Decommissioning Process, which was drawn out for as long as possible to extract political gains for SF?

No I haven't forgotten it.

The IRA were simply not going to decommission until the deal was done and being acted on. The British knew that. They lost that particular battle of wills.

FrancieBrady

tayto lover wrote: »

I am not deflecting at all, just saying what I see.
I have no time for politicians of any hue and colour.
I have time for the man on the street who is the loser in all of this.
And again all that language and slogan stuff is language of the past. It has no place in any arrangements or talks for the future.

How can there be a 'future' if this is what happens when you want 'simple equality'.

This Act will hurt no one.

Donnielighto

Why is the union flag only flown on certain days, isn't it the national flag, seems odd.

Donnielighto

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How can there be a 'future' if this is what happens when you want 'simple equality'.

This Act will hurt no one.

Just regarding this equality aspect of it, presumably it's a historical basis for introduction same as Scottish and Welsh as opposed to pure usage which would open up a while can of worms if any area become ghettoised..

FrancieBrady

riffmongous wrote: »

Did anyone see the BBC Newsnight interview with Gregory Campbell a few days ago?

The interviewer really puts it up to him, which was a bit surprising. And I'm starting to think, as was said earlier, that the best thing SF can actually do at the moment is play the long game, especially while the DUP hold the balance of power in Westminster. Stay out of power and call the DUP out on as many petty issues as possible.. as the WM deal has really cast a spotlight on the DUP and it's highlighting the ugly nasty side of the party to those in the rest of the UK, who don't seem to have been very aware of the party until now and look at each new 'DUP collapse talks' article with bewilderment and exasperation, like in the interview above

Yes, it cannot be lost on the average UKer what a difficult bunch they are to deal with. Remembering the Brexit 1st phase agreement last minute strop too.

McMurphy

Donnielighto wrote: »

Why is the union flag only flown on certain days, isn't it the national flag, seems odd.

It has been brought into line with British Government guidelines, and to be flown no more than 18 days a year.

It was odd beforehand now it's on par with everywhere else.

FrancieBrady

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

It has been brought into line with British Government guidelines, and to be flown no more than 18 days a year.

It was odd beforehand now it's on par with everywhere else.

And the world was supposed to end if they didn't get to fly it when they wanted.

Nobody even notices now.

Fr Tod Umptious

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

The current political situation means that it's going to be very hard to get a deal across the line. The DUP has very little interest in forming an executive because direct rule suits them as long as they hold the balance of power in Westminster.

The entire row meanwhile is typical petty Northern Ireland politics. The region is facing into one of the biggest economic upheavals it'll ever experience (Brexit) but what's the core sticking point? A language almost nobody speaks.

I wouldn't expect anything less of them.

Well said.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No I haven't forgotten it.

The IRA were simply not going to decommission until the deal was done and being acted on. The British knew that. They lost that particular battle of wills.

Better to lose a battle of wills than to be forced to give up all your weapons.

blanch152

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Get back to me when the loyal green lodge of saint Patrick's worshippers start banning its members from marrying people from non Christian religious denominations.

They did for centuries, non-Catholics had to convert. It has been relaxed slightly since. Here you go, apply for permission, but who says you will get it:

http://www.foryourmarriage.org/catholic-marriage-faqs/


"If a Catholic wants to marry a non-Catholic, how can they assure that the marriage is recognized by the Church?

In addition to meeting the criteria for a valid Catholic marriage (see question #3), the Catholic must seek permission from the local bishop to marry a non-Catholic. If the person is a non-Catholic Christian, this permission is called a “permission to enter into a mixed marriage.” If the person is a non-Christian, the permission is called a “dispensation from disparity of cult.” Those helping to prepare the couple for marriage can assist with the permission process."

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

As already said, and I have said last night, the common misconception (wilful ignorance imo) from the usual anti anything to do with Sinn Fein or republicanism as a whole, is that this is a Sinn Fein demand alone, it's not this act has the support of no less than 5 other mainstream party's from the north, 50/90 of its members.

The DUP are doing what they always do, but they will end up where they always end up, conceding regardless.

Civil rights.
GFA
RUC disbandment and restructured
North South institutions
Union flag being flown on certain days only.

All of which they foughht tooth and nail, but happened anyway.

Unionism is on a fast track into a cul de sac.

Yawn, nobody is really interested in an Irish language act, not even Sinn Fein to be honest. The language died out in the North in the mid-1970s when the last native speaker died. It was artificially regenerated afterwards, a bit like the way Ulster-Scots is being artificially regenerated now.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

They did for centuries, non-Catholics had to convert. It has been relaxed slightly since. Here you go, apply for permission, but who says you will get it:

http://www.foryourmarriage.org/catholic-marriage-faqs/


"If a Catholic wants to marry a non-Catholic, how can they assure that the marriage is recognized by the Church?

In addition to meeting the criteria for a valid Catholic marriage (see question #3), the Catholic must seek permission from the local bishop to marry a non-Catholic. If the person is a non-Catholic Christian, this permission is called a “permission to enter into a mixed marriage.” If the person is a non-Christian, the permission is called a “dispensation from disparity of cult.” Those helping to prepare the couple for marriage can assist with the permission process."





Yawn, nobody is really interested in an Irish language act, not even Sinn Fein to be honest. The language died out in the North in the mid-1970s when the last native speaker died. It was artificially regenerated afterwards, a bit like the way Ulster-Scots is being artificially regenerated now.

You and unionists are very interested in an ILA. In denying it because it might be a win for your boogeymen/women

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You and unionists are very interested in an ILA. In denying it because it might be a win for your boogeymen/women

That doesn't make any sense and I am not sure what you are trying to say.

I believe language acts, and I include the one in this State, are a complete waste of money, so perhaps that is why I am so blase about it. As usual, in an attempt to put down someone else's views, you question their motivation or lump them in with unionists/Brits/DUP/latest bogeyman.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

That doesn't make any sense and I am not sure what you are trying to say.

I believe language acts, and I include the one in this State, are a complete waste of money, so perhaps that is why I am so blase about it. As usual, in an attempt to put down someone else's views, you question their motivation or lump them in with unionists/Brits/DUP/latest bogeyman.

Your entire argument since I first came across you has been in favour of unionism.
If the cap fits etc.

Many people believe a language act is important, you don't speak for everyone.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your entire argument since I first came across you has been in favour of unionism.
If the cap fits etc.

Many people believe a language act is important, you don't speak for everyone.

I am a constitutional nationalist from Dublin who believes that unionists should be persuaded of the merits of a united Ireland, but that said united Ireland never deserved the spilling of a drop of blood and that those who spilled that blood (SF/IRA) should properly atone for what they did.

In that, I am fairly typical of people down here, with probably around 50% of normal people in agreement with me. Another 30%-40% don't care about a united Ireland and the rest are SF voters.

um7y1h83ge06nx

I feel they are all wasters, both SF and the DUP, and they do not adequately represent the people of Northern Ireland. If they did, they would stop being petty and work together to mitigate against the threats posed by Brexit. Too busy point scoring off each other than attempting to run Northern Ireland.

FrancieBrady

A constitutional nationalist who has never taken the side of nationalists on any issue on here. Colour me skeptical.

You couldn't resist a biased swipe while proclaiming it.