Irish Language Act in the North: Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Is this the Leo thread?

Oh no, it's not.

We are discussing the implications of the snubbing of the two sectarian parties in the North, but somehow, Leo becomes the main subject. Puzzled, I am.

Go on, tell us the implications of being snubbed by Trumps White House.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

Is this the Leo thread?

Oh no, it's not.

We are discussing the implications of the snubbing of the two sectarian parties in the North, but somehow, Leo becomes the main subject. Puzzled, I am.

No, they were not. Gerry Adams and Ian Paisley Jnr were there.

ancapailldorcha

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Now race away back through the thread and find where I said that she had been expelled from FG as opposed to the PP. I will save you your time, I didn't say it at any point.

Dishonesty you say? Personalised slurs you say? :rolleyes:

Don't post like this again please.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

You obviously didn't read the article - NO taxpayer money was used.

Mary Lou imagined that taxpayer money was used. She was wrong.

Actually I read it. You were wrong about its content and intent. It referenced the use of the flag possibly being used (associated with Leo using our money) to promote FF politicians. Now you're off on another misunderstanding. I realise if one defends or distracts from a politician using tax payer money for his own promotion, like Leo, one must double down for members of the sister party.

blanch152 wrote: »

Is this the Leo thread?

Oh no, it's not.

We are discussing the implications of the snubbing of the two sectarian parties in the North, but somehow, Leo becomes the main subject. Puzzled, I am.

Nice to see the DUP backing the UK Tory cuts to school dinner funding as long as the north is exempt. Classy.

charlie14

blanch152 wrote: »

Is this the Leo thread?

Oh no, it's not.

We are discussing the implications of the snubbing of the two sectarian parties in the North, but somehow, Leo becomes the main subject. Puzzled, I am.

For someone who has gone off on so many tangents yourself when the actual title of this thread is "Have Sinn Féin scored a major own goal" I am puzzled myself as to why you now wish to narrow the boundaries. Especially as you were so keen earlier to discuss matters Irish related in Washington this week.

Btw, seeing as you are so eager to get back to the thread title, you still believe SInn Féin rather than the DUP scored an own goal with the breakdown of talks on reforming the assembly ?

Havockk

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Go on, tell us the implications of being snubbed by Trumps White House.

Point of pride I would go as far as to say to be honest.

FrancieBrady

Havockk wrote: »

Point of pride I would go as far as to say to be honest.

So I guess they will get over it so.

recedite

"Better to stay quiet and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt."
But at least the White House got an Irish stand-up comedy routine, which is the main thing.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: If this thread is going to become a repository for random links then I'm going to have to close it. Back on topic please.

blanch152

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0318/948425-bradley-stormont-powersharing/

Differences between the Irish and UK governments on how to handle the North.

Bradley puts it up to them "I cannot tell two grown-up parties in the DUP and Sinn Féin, who are the two parties that need to make an agreement, to reach an accommodation and come to an accommodation to form a devolved government."

Certainly, in the way that Sinn Fein have been running to the governments crying about the bullying DUP, there has been more than a little echo of childish behaviour. Similarly, in the DUP making a big thing of an issue such as SSM is also very childish behaviour.

However, is there really any appetite from either party to restore Stormont? I think SF want another go at becoming the largest party while the DUP are happy for the moment to sit in government in London instead of Belfast.

Professor Moriarty

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0318/948425-bradley-stormont-powersharing/

Differences between the Irish and UK governments on how to handle the North.

Bradley puts it up to them "I cannot tell two grown-up parties in the DUP and Sinn Féin, who are the two parties that need to make an agreement, to reach an accommodation and come to an accommodation to form a devolved government."

Certainly, in the way that Sinn Fein have been running to the governments crying about the bullying DUP, there has been more than a little echo of childish behaviour. Similarly, in the DUP making a big thing of an issue such as SSM is also very childish behaviour.

However, is there really any appetite from either party to restore Stormont? I think SF want another go at becoming the largest party while the DUP are happy for the moment to sit in government in London instead of Belfast.

I think you're right. Each party is waiting in the wings to see which way the wind blows during and after Brexit. A border in the Irish sea is a 'win' for SF. A hard border is a 'win' for the DUP. Best case scenario is that the status quo essentially prevails and everyone gets back to work.

markodaly

Sinn Fein never seem to learn do they.

http://www.thejournal.ie/maire-devine-brian-stack-3912533-Mar2018/

THE SON OF a prison officer shot dead by the IRA has called for a Sinn Féin senator to resign after she retweeted a message calling his father a ‘sadist’.

Suspended with pay for 3 months.

She should be sacked immediately.
Mary Lou, old boss, meets the new boss.

Jawgap

Another own goal......

Sinn Féin suspends senator for retweeting message calling IRA victim a 'sadist prison officer'

The tweet read:

“Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has congratulated Gerry Adams after the people of New York celebrated #GerryAdamsDay.

Leo had no response to criticism in the #Sindo from a #SaveThe8th Fianna Fáil son of a sadist prison officer.

The party described her actions as “unacceptable”.

“The Ard Chomhairle has suspended, with immediate effect, Senator Devine from party membership and all party activities for a period of three months. The whip has been removed and Senator Devine will be outside of the Leinster House team for that period.

three month suspension? For another example of SF's attitude - these type of outbursts seem to be happening with increasing frequency.

blanch152

Jawgap wrote: »

Another own goal......

Sinn Féin suspends senator for retweeting message calling IRA victim a 'sadist prison officer'



three month suspension? For another example of SF's attitude - these type of outbursts seem to be happening with increasing frequency.

McElduff got the standard three-month suspension initially too.

This one seems worse, it doesn't take much for the mask to slip, does it?

As the party spokesperson on health and mental health, it is an extraordinary lapse. Hugely crass the way she argued with Stack afterwards.

Many SF representatives really don't see or understand the hurt they cause.

Jawgap

blanch152 wrote: »

McElduff got the standard three-month suspension initially too.

This one seems worse, it doesn't take much for the mask to slip, does it?

As the party spokesperson on health and mental health, it is an extraordinary lapse. Hugely crass the way she argued with Stack afterwards.

Many SF representatives really don't see or understand the hurt they cause.

McElduff made a stupid joke and had to resign, it sounds like she's directly trolled the family of a victim and she only gets a 3 month holiday! Quite remarkable.

It just illustrates how unfit for constitutional office they are if this is how they perceive murdered public servants.

piplip87

I have done a bit of digging regarding the comments today. What I learned was:

1) SF/IRA where unhappy that the Irish Prison Service was running the prison and not SF/IRA.

2) There supporters will still insist in attacking the victim.

3) What about is still the main part of their argument about everything.

James Brown

piplip87 wrote: »

I have done a bit of digging regarding the comments today. What I learned was:

1) SF/IRA where unhappy that the Irish Prison Service was running the prison and not SF/IRA.

2) There supporters will still insist in attacking the victim.

3) What about is still the main part of their argument about everything.

I believe the IRA shot him, albeit with claims it was unsanctioned. I don't see how blaming the victim relates to this. They made him a victim and have their own reasons. I suppose that's related; they blamed him for some perceived slights and made him a victim?

piplip87

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I believe the IRA shot him, albeit with claims it was unsanctioned. I don't see how blaming the victim relates to this. They made him a victim and have their own reasons. I suppose that's related; they blamed him for some perceived slights and made him a victim?

Yes SF supporters have attacked Stack accusing him of abuse of prisoners and somehow using these accusations to justify the killing.

They have also went on to attack his son, who is a member of FF. Apparently speaking out against your fathers murderers is "A ploy to discredit SF by a FF member."

I also do not buy into the whole unsanctioned argument. If it was unsanctioned, then why not make sure those who where responsible came forward ?

Brendan Bendar

blanch152 wrote: »

McElduff got the standard three-month suspension initially too.

This one seems worse, it doesn't take much for the mask to slip, does it?

As the party spokesperson on health and mental health, it is an extraordinary lapse. Hugely crass the way she argued with Stack afterwards.

Many SF representatives really don't see or understand the hurt they cause.

This is yet another situation where SF have been seen to be wanting.

I feel the mask is slipping big time.
MLMD needs to take control very quickly and surely.

Have to say she has not impressed as a leader up to this.

There was McElduff-Kelly- bullying- and now Devine!

No one in their right mind would have this rabble close to the levers of power.

jm08

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I believe the IRA shot him, albeit with claims it was unsanctioned. I don't see how blaming the victim relates to this. They made him a victim and have their own reasons. I suppose that's related; they blamed him for some perceived slights and made him a victim?

If you read this, the Stack's beef is with the Gardai.

"The Garda authorities have never provided our family with an adequate explanation for these shortcomings," he added.
The family said they remain frustrated with the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation which is currently in charge of case.
"It is our view that the distinct lack of cooperation our family has experienced with the NBCI team is directly linked to the unsettling aspects and major flaws uncovered in the original Garda investigation," said Austin Stack.

Several meetings with Mr Adams in recent months led to last week's two-hour secret rendezvous with a former top IRA leader. They were told to leave behind phones, and give their word they were not wired, before being driven from the M1 motorway near Dundalk in a blacked out van to their unknown location.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/thirty-years-on-ira-finally-admits-killing-prison-officer-brian-stack-29486852.html

Red_Wake

piplip87 wrote: »

Yes SF supporters have attacked Stack accusing him of abuse of prisoners and somehow using these accusations to justify the killing.

They have also went on to attack his son, who is a member of FF. Apparently speaking out against your fathers murderers is "A ploy to discredit SF by a FF member."

I also do not buy into the whole unsanctioned argument. If it was unsanctioned, then why not make sure those who where responsible came forward ?

Personally I'd wonder what internal discipline they imposed on the perpetrators, I suspect none.

Really should have been a good week for SF, with Gerry getting honoured in the US. Instead it's led to another incident involving their past awful past being dredged for all to see.

Mary Lou was supposed to get them away from their past, but she has to defend it regularly due to gaffes like thiis.

I do suspect Devine didn't read the full tweet before retweeting tbf. A lesson for all who use twitter professionally.

jm08

Red_Wake wrote: »

Personally I'd wonder what internal discipline they imposed on the perpetrators, I suspect none.

Really should have been a good week for SF, with Gerry getting honoured in the US. Instead it's led to another incident involving their past awful past being dredged for all to see.

Mary Lou was supposed to get them away from their past, but she has to defend it regularly due to gaffes like thiis.

I do suspect Devine didn't read the full tweet before retweeting tbf. A lesson for all who use twitter professionally.

According to that article I linked to above, the IRA apologised for it which suggests admitting guilt.

"Some years later, when the Army Council discovered that its volunteers had shot Prison Officer Brian Stack, the volunteer responsible for the instruction was disciplined."


But the statement said the IRA killers involved were acting under orders.

"This operation should not have taken place," it states.


"While the IRA can no longer comment on this matter, let me express my sorrow for the pain and hurt your family suffered."

I'm no fan of Sinn Fein, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree here. What more should they do?

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

If you read this, the Stack's beef is with the Gardai.





https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/thirty-years-on-ira-finally-admits-killing-prison-officer-brian-stack-29486852.html

Yes, it seems they believe that the gardai were reluctant to investigate because the State was wary of causing issues with the peace process, particularly with an investigation focussing on a person who was leading the IRA and Sinn Fein at the same time. I wonder who that was?

Jawgap

The original parody account she retweeted seems to have disappeared?

I wonder if it will be revealed who was running it.

blanch152

Jawgap wrote: »

The original parody account she retweeted seems to have disappeared?

I wonder if it will be revealed who was running it.

Probably a non-Sinn Fein Twitter account, just like the one that falsely brought down Sean Gallagher.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, it seems they believe that the gardai were reluctant to investigate because the State was wary of causing issues with the peace process, particularly with an investigation focussing on a person who was leading the IRA and Sinn Fein at the same time. I wonder who that was?

Brian Stack was shot in 1983. Why wasn't it investigated then? Seems Martin Ferris and Dessie Ellis were named under Dail privilege as being responsible.

McMurphy

blanch152 wrote: »

Probably a non-Sinn Fein Twitter account, just like the one that falsely brought down Sean Gallagher.

RTE brought Sean Gallagher down.

He even successfully sued them for doing so.

piplip87

jm08 wrote: »

According to that article I linked to above, the IRA apologised for it which suggests admitting guilt.



I'm no fan of Sinn Fein, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree here. What more should they do?

Give the names of those responsible to the authorities, would be a start. The end of the day they have information about an agent of the states murder. On the other hand they are looking to get into government and run the state.

blanch152

piplip87 wrote: »

Give the names of those responsible to the authorities, would be a start. The end of the day they have information about an agent of the states murder. On the other hand they are looking to get into government and run the state.

Isn't that the key point though?

IF you want to grow up and take part in the political leadership of this state, surely you must hand over to justice those who have tried to subvert the State, killing officers of the State such as Gardai and prison officers.

That is why the Jerry McCabe and Austin Stack murders have such resonance.

charlie14

blanch152 wrote: »

Isn't that the key point though?

IF you want to grow up and take part in the political leadership of this state, surely you must hand over to justice those who have tried to subvert the State, killing officers of the State such as Gardai and prison officers.

That is why the Jerry McCabe and Austin Stack murders have such resonance.

Not exactly foreign in the history of the two largest parties in the state that have governed from it`s establishment in one form or other.
One in particular that when it came to running the state whose hands were not to clean when it came to judicial murder, and where some of it`s members are still glorified to this day.

Jawgap

charlie14 wrote: »

Not exactly foreign in the history of the two largest parties in the state that have governed from it`s establishment in one form or other.
One in particular that when it came to running the state whose hands were not to clean when it came to judicial murder, and where some of it`s members are still glorified to this day.

Neither FG nor FF were in existence during of immediately after the War of Independence or the Civil War.

Quite remarkable that SF regard this person as fit to be a public rep and, potentially, sit in scrutiny of Department of Justice and IPS.

Brendan Bendar

Jawgap wrote: »

Neither FG nor FF were in existence during of immediately after the War of Independence or the Civil War.

Quite remarkable that SF regard this person as fit to be a public rep and, potentially, sit in scrutiny of Department of Justice and IPS.

That's the scary bit for sure.

Red_Wake

jm08 wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

Personally I'd wonder what internal discipline they imposed on the perpetrators, I suspect none.

Really should have been a good week for SF, with Gerry getting honoured in the US. Instead it's led to another incident involving their past awful past being dredged for all to see.

Mary Lou was supposed to get them away from their past, but she has to defend it regularly due to gaffes like thiis.

I do suspect Devine didn't read the full tweet before retweeting tbf. A lesson for all who use twitter professionally.

According to that article I linked to above, the IRA apologised for it which suggests admitting guilt.

"Some years later, when the Army Council discovered that its  volunteers had shot Prison Officer Brian Stack, the volunteer  responsible for the instruction was disciplined."


But the statement said the IRA killers involved were acting under orders.

 "This operation should not have taken place," it states.


"While the IRA can no longer comment on this matter, let me express my sorrow for the pain and hurt your family suffered."

I'm no fan of Sinn Fein, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree here. What more should they do?

That's not relevant to my post at all.;)

I said I suspect the discipline imposed on the perpetrators of the murder of Brian Stack was negligible. An apology by the IRA does not give any insight into how they disciplined the aforementioned murderers.

jm08

piplip87 wrote: »

Give the names of those responsible to the authorities, would be a start. The end of the day they have information about an agent of the states murder. On the other hand they are looking to get into government and run the state.

Since everyone knew who did it seemingly (they were named in the Dail), why were they not prosecuted?

As for seeking to get into Government. Perhaps you should lecture the people who elect them on that. They won't get into Government if people don't vote for them in the first place.

eldamo

So, is the current (non)punishment of Senator Devine, (3 months removal from the whip) all that will be forthcoming or does it depend on the level of public unhappiness?

This is such a huge opportunity missed by the new leadership, this would have been a great opportunity to distance themselves from the clearly compromised leadership of the past.

If any of this gains traction maybe they will do something, but for the moment it just looks like they are waiting for the news cycle to move onto the next outrage.

I rarely get exercised by these things, but in this case I have contacted my local TD Peadar Toibin to make known my unhappiness, he cannot represent me and my interests if his party are unwilling to take action on this. It has no place in modern political discourse.

Jawgap

jm08 wrote: »

Since everyone knew who did it seemingly (they were named in the Dail), why were they not prosecuted?

As for seeking to get into Government. Perhaps you should lecture the people who elect them on that. They won't get into Government if people don't vote for them in the first place.

Because, somewhat ironically, the perpetrators enjoy the protections of the Constitution they tried so diligently to subvert......so while the authorities may well know who did it, proving it in a court of law is, rightly, a different order of a challenge.

How SF don't see what the senator tweeted as a resigning matter really does speak volumes about their mindset.

piplip87

jm08 wrote: »

Since everyone knew who did it seemingly (they were named in the Dail), why were they not prosecuted?

As for seeking to get into Government. Perhaps you should lecture the people who elect them on that. They won't get into Government if people don't vote for them in the first place.

SF are appealing to the "we won't pay" brigade. When the country is back to maximum employment and people realise that the left want to raise taxes to fund the workshy, the poll numbers will come tumbling down. SF will not govern down South for a long time yet.

jm08

Jawgap wrote: »

Because, somewhat ironically, the perpetrators enjoy the protections of the Constitution they tried so diligently to subvert......so while the authorities may well know who did it, proving it in a court of law is, rightly, a different order of a challenge.

And how was using the word of Gerry Adams going to prove it if the word of the Minister for Justice couldn't? Sounds like you have a problem with how the justice system works.

How SF don't see what the senator tweeted as a resigning matter really does speak volumes about their mindset.

Looks more like the Senator didn't read the full text of what was being retweeted as suggested by other people here.

jm08

piplip87 wrote: »

SF are appealing to the "we won't pay" brigade. When the country is back to maximum employment and people realise that the left want to raise taxes to fund the workshy, the poll numbers will come tumbling down. SF will not govern down South for a long time yet.

From what I see, SF are not governing down south.

blanch152

charlie14 wrote: »

Not exactly foreign in the history of the two largest parties in the state that have governed from it`s establishment in one form or other.
One in particular that when it came to running the state whose hands were not to clean when it came to judicial murder, and where some of it`s members are still glorified to this day.

If one fails to learn from history, one is doomed to repeat the same mistakes.

Quoting a century-old precedent to support unacceptable behaviour in a modern day society is a pathetic attempt to defend the indefensible.

The behaviour of both sides in the Civil War would not be acceptable today.

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

Looks more like the Senator didn't read the full text of what was being retweeted as suggested by other people here.

Is that the lame excuse being proffered by the Senator?

Or is it an invention of a poster on here?

eldamo

jm08 wrote: »

Looks more like the Senator didn't read the full text of what was being retweeted as suggested by other people here.

Other people where?
Reports are she defended it before deleting it.
If it was a misread a decent person would have acknowledged that straight away.

blanch152

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/mary-lou-mcdonald-defends-suspension-handed-to-senator-over-stack-tweet-scandal-36723924.html


It seems that the Senator has got the full backing of her party leader who believes that the three-month holiday "was more than a "rap on the knuckles"".

I somehow doubt that the Stack family believe it to be more than a rap on the knuckles. Devine had the chance to retract when challenged by the Stacks, but she didn't, and actually defended her tweet.

Jawgap

jm08 wrote: »

And how was using the word of Gerry Adams going to prove it if the word of the Minister for Justice couldn't? Sounds like you have a problem with how the justice system works.



Looks more like the Senator didn't read the full text of what was being retweeted as suggested by other people here.

So, when I say......

Because, somewhat ironically, the perpetrators enjoy the protections of the Constitution they tried so diligently to subvert......so while the authorities may well know who did it, proving it in a court of law is, rightly, a different order of a challenge.

......you reckon I have a problem with how the justice system works??

Far from it.......I believe everyone deserves the protection afforded by the Constitution even if they have worked to subvert, or are part of or affiliated to an organisation that employs kangaroo courts.

Are you suggesting, btw, that senator is not responsible for their utterances?

Red_Wake

eldamo wrote: »

jm08 wrote: »

Looks more like the Senator didn't read the full text of what was being retweeted as suggested by other people here.

Other people where?
Reports are she defended it before deleting it.
If it was a misread a decent person would have acknowledged that straight away.

I opined that it was possible that she only read the first part. However, knowing now that she defended it, it seems that I was mistaken.

Despicable behaviour that you could only expect from SF.

eldamo

Red_Wake wrote: »

I opined that it was possible that she only read the first part. However, knowing now that she defended it, it seems that I was mistaken.

Despicable behaviour that you could only expect from SF.

Sorry, I see that now.

It does appear that Mary Lou is done with the handing out of justice for now, so if this does escalate it will likely be up to Senator Devine to resign herself.

Missed opportunity.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

Is that the lame excuse being proffered by the Senator?

Or is it an invention of a poster on here?

eldamo wrote: »

Other people where?
Reports are she defended it before deleting it.
If it was a misread a decent person would have acknowledged that straight away.

There are no excuses, just apologises.

From reading the full exchange in The Journal, her beef seems to have been with the SaveTheEight part with the reference to Brian Stack a bit hidden (clever by the tweeter).

http://www.thejournal.ie/maire-devine-brian-stack-3912533-Mar2018/

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

There are no excuses, just apologises.

From reading the full exchange in The Journal, her beef seems to have been with the SaveTheEight part with the reference to Brian Stack a bit hidden (clever by the tweeter).

http://www.thejournal.ie/maire-devine-brian-stack-3912533-Mar2018/

How do you explain this?

"Stack: ”So you obviously stand over that disgusting tweet then?”
Devine: ”I would review your “compassionate friends” a myriad of agendas – loss is personal and traumatic, its [sic] doesn’t belong to trolls. A conflict that lost many loved ones”"

charlie14

Jawgap wrote: »

Neither FG nor FF were in existence during of immediately after the War of Independence or the Civil War.

Quite remarkable that SF regard this person as fit to be a public rep and, potentially, sit in scrutiny of Department of Justice and IPS.

I was not defending that SF senator. Merely pointing out that in the history of this state judicial murder has also been carried out.

FG and FF both have their roots in the War of Independence and even more so in the Civil War. Glorified by both and still a bone of contention among their hardcore supporters
To claim they have not is similar to claiming the present SF do not have their roots from the PIRA campaign.

blanch152

charlie14 wrote: »

I was not defending that SF senator. Merely pointing out that in the history of this state judicial murder has also been carried out.

FG and FF both have their roots in the War of Independence and even more so in the Civil War. Glorified by both and still a bone of contention among their hardcore supporters
To claim they have not is similar to claiming the present SF do not have their roots from the PIRA campaign.

Nobody has ever claimed that FF and FG don't have their roots in the Civil War.