Ireland 2040 Planning Framework & associated Investment Plan discussion [NO ROADS]

Riskymove

marno21

Riskymove wrote: »

That map shows an electrified Phoenix Park Tunnel.

Interesting

VeryOwl

marno21 wrote: »

That map shows an electrified Phoenix Park Tunnel.

Interesting

Death knell for DART Underground.

thomasj

VeryOwl wrote:

Death knell for DART Underground.

Not necessarily.

If you look at the legend for that colour code, you'll notice that it relates to hybrid trains , which can run as diesel or electric.

So while we wait on the tunnel, we may see diesel running through the tunnel.

Pixel Eater

Riskymove wrote: »

So will the Metro running from Swords to Sandyford share the tracks with the Luas or will the Luas only be from Sandyford to Bray?

And I wonder why it'll take until post-2027 to connect the Red line to Poolbeg? Surely that site will be developed well before then and it's a fairly short distance to lay.

LeinsterDub

VeryOwl wrote: »

Death knell for DART Underground.

To be honest this is what I've been suggesting IÉ do for decades . Instead of say if only we had x would could increase journeys by y they should instead basically run the current system to a stand still , wait for the public outcry and the force the government to act.


IÉ: Hey government, thanks for the lovely DARTS to Drogheda, Maynooth, Celbridge/Hazelhatch and Greystones they are all rammed.
Public : Typical Ireland , no foresight...
Government : Fine have yizzers poxy tunnel

blanch152

zulutango wrote: »

Can you link me to that research? And can you give me examples of where plans to stop growth of large cities didn't fail?

I am not aware of any plan to stop the growth of large cities that ever succeeded in improving the wellbeing and prosperity of the country.

There may be examples in places like Cuba and North Korea or further back in communist East Europe.

bk

zulutango wrote: »

It's a good video and I'm a few minutes into it, and it actually doesn't back up your claim. It says that cities by and large grow organically, without external influences. And then it goes on to explain how external influences can change the rank of cities. One example it gives is Washington DC where the nascent US government decided to seat its government. And there are heaps of such examples. I'll keep watching ..

True, but it does mention that it takes a massive external force to make that change. It requires a massive upheaval, such as the British taking Hong Kong or discovering gold in San Francisco. Even in the Washington DC example, while it changed rank to 6th place, it is still WAY behind New York and LA which continued to grow at a ferocious pace.

Short of moving the entire government, Dail, all departments, etc. to Cork , realistically it isn't going to happen here in Ireland.

Generally speaking such forced changes don't happen in modern, developed Western, democratic countries. Today, such change is limited to command lead societies such as China and even then it takes massive effort to make such a change.

Think about this for a moment, over the last 10 years their has been very little or no investment in Dublin, yet the population of the Dublin region has continued to grow at a very high rate, almost twice as high as anywhere else in Ireland. Government investment or not, simply isn't going to change that natural trend. Short of sending out the army and forcing everyone down to Cork

BTW One major issue our country has is that Cork isn't really our second city. Going by this video and population size, clearly Belfast is the second city of the island of Ireland. But of course political issues greatly complicates that.

Riskymove

Pixel Eater wrote: »

So will the Metro running from Swords to Sandyford share the tracks with the Luas or will the Luas only be from Sandyford to Bray?

Luas from Broombridge to Stephen's green also

not clear if Metro will replace green line from stephen's green to sandyford

CarlosHarpic

Am I right in assuming the Phoenix Park Tunnel is to be electrified?

blanch152

CarlosHarpic wrote: »

Am I right in assuming the Phoenix Park Tunnel is to be electrified?

No, it seems some kind of diesel/electric hybrid will be used for DART expansion.

snotboogie

bk wrote: »

zulutango wrote: »

It's a good video and I'm a few minutes into it, and it actually doesn't back up your claim. It says that cities by and large grow organically, without external influences. And then it goes on to explain how external influences can change the rank of cities. One example it gives is Washington DC where the nascent US government decided to seat its government. And there are heaps of such examples. I'll keep watching ..

True, but it does mention that it takes a massive external force to make that change. It requires a massive upheaval, such as the British taking Hong Kong or discovering gold in San Francisco. Even in the Washington DC example, while it changed rank to 6th place, it is still WAY behind New York and LA which continued to grow at a ferocious pace.

Short of moving the entire government, Dail, all departments, etc. to Cork , realistically it isn't going to happen here in Ireland.

Generally speaking such forced changes don't happen in modern, developed Western, democratic countries. Today, such change is limited to command lead societies such as China and even then it takes massive effort to make such a change.

Think about this for a moment, over the last 10 years their has been very little or no investment in Dublin, yet the population of the Dublin region has continued to grow at a very high rate, almost twice as high as anywhere else in Ireland. Government investment or not, simply isn't going to change that natural trend. Short of sending out the army and forcing everyone down to Cork

BTW One major issue our country has is that Cork isn't really our second city. Going by this video and population size, clearly Belfast is the second city of the island of Ireland. But of course political issues greatly complicates that.

The rate of growth in Dublin is not the highest in the country, Meath grew faster between the last two census'. Dublin grew at 5.7%, Kildare at 5.6% and your beloved Cork at 4.5%, so it's not double the rate of everywhere else. In absolute terms its growth is far higher than anywhere else but the rate of growth is in the same range as the rest of Leinster and Cork.

zetalambda

bk wrote: »

BTW One major issue our country has is that Cork isn't really our second city. Going by this video and population size, clearly Belfast is the second city of the island of Ireland. But of course political issues greatly complicates that.

Why is that a major issue? Surely being the 3rd as opposed to 2nd city is trivial. I look forward to the day we have a united Ireland and hope it comes sooner rather than later. Then we'll have a much weaker Dublin with only 20% of the population! Now that's a major issue.

MayoSalmon

snotboogie wrote: »

The rate of growth in Dublin is not the highest in the country, Meath grew faster between the last two census'. Dublin grew at 5.7%, Kildare at 5.6% and your beloved Cork at 4.5%, so it's not double the rate of everywhere else. In absolute terms its growth is far higher than anywhere else but the rate of growth is in the same range as the rest of Leinster and Cork.

Yeah I can almost guarantee 80% of those people are actually Dubs moving out to afford a home, childcare etc..

Zebra3

Is there enough space as it stands to electrify the PPT if they wanted to?

bk

snotboogie wrote: »

The rate of growth in Dublin is not the highest in the country, Meath grew faster between the last two census'. Dublin grew at 5.7%, Kildare at 5.6% and your beloved Cork at 4.5%, so it's not double the rate of everywhere else. In absolute terms its growth is far higher than anywhere else but the rate of growth is in the same range as the rest of Leinster and Cork.

Ah, come on, we all know that the majority of those people living in Meath and Kildare are commuting into Dublin! They are all part of the GDA.

Now take the population growth of the GDA and compare it to Cork.

zetalambda wrote: »

Why is that a major issue? Surely being the 3rd as opposed to 2nd city is trivial. I look forward to the day we have a united Ireland and hope it comes sooner rather than later. Then we'll have a much weaker Dublin with only 20% of the population! Now that's a major issue.

It is part of the reason why the population growth and investment is out of kilter in Ireland. Usually your second largest city acts as a balance to the first city, but in our case our second city (Cork) is so much smaller then the first, that Dublin ends up getting an over exaggerated attention and Cork can't really act as a true counterbalance that it should be.

Dublin having just 20% of our population and a strong Belfast as part of our country would lead to a much more balanced development.

salmocab

Zebra3 wrote: »

Is there enough space as it stands to electrify the PPT if they wanted to?

I’m pretty sure I read that there isn’t so it’s either hybrid trains or dig the floor out and lower the tracks which would cost a fortune and shut the tunnel for over a year

bk

salmocab wrote: »

I’m pretty sure I read that there isn’t so it’s either hybrid trains or dig the floor out and lower the tracks which would cost a fortune and shut the tunnel for over a year

Perhaps just enough battery power to make it through the tunnel. Hybird or even tri-mode trains like that exist throughout Europe.

zetalambda

bk wrote: »

Dublin having just 20% of our population and a strong Belfast as part of our country would lead to a much more balanced development.

Exactly...Roll on a united Ireland. The Turkeys are voting for Christmas!!

irishfeen

zetalambda wrote: »

Exactly...Roll on a united Ireland. The Turkeys are voting for Christmas!!

We could certainly do with the extra tax payers to help pay for this investment plan

Fann Linn

nuac wrote: »

6.11 provides that HQs of new State Agencies be located in the regions. Any exception to be approved by DE.

This requirement should have been extended to all existing publicly funded agencies and parts of Government Departments.

They should use modern communication methods e.g. Skype rather than face to face meetings - saving time, energy and expenses

Decentralisation. We've had that already.

zetalambda

irishfeen wrote: »

We could certainly do with the extra tax payers to help pay for this investment plan

Belfast and the north will benefit the most from a united Ireland. Dublin will be negatively impacted the most, far more than Cork, Galway or Limerick. The bigger you are, the harder you fall.
I like that they plan to work on faster rail between Cork and Belfast. That means I might be able to fly international from Belfast in the future instead of always going through London and Paris!

zulutango

bk wrote:

Dublin having just 20% of our population and a strong Belfast as part of our country would lead to a much more balanced development.

That is true. But Limerick is probably a better bet for being the counter balance.

bk

zulutango wrote: »

That is true. But Limerick is probably a better bet for being the counter balance.

Why? It is much smaller then Cork. By some international definitions it wouldn't even be called a city, at best a large town.

Meanwhile Cork was awarded most business friendly small city in Europe just last week.

Realistically Cork is the only city with a big enough and independent enough industries to somewhat balance Dublin. Though ideally Belfast would do that best.

Given the political realities Cork, Limerick and Galway will all need to work closely together if we hope to balance Dublin.

hans aus dtschl

bk wrote: »

Why? It is much smaller then Cork. By some international definitions it wouldn't even be called a city, at best a large town.

Meanwhile Cork was awarded most business friendly small city in Europe just last week.

Realistically Cork is the only city with a big enough and independent enough industries to somewhat balance Dublin. Though ideally Belfast would do that best.

Given the political realities Cork, Limerick and Galway will all need to work closely together if we hope to balance Dublin.

Yep. Cork's almost 3 times the size of Limerick's but Cork is still far too small.
Any idea of Limerick, Cork or Galway individually being the counterbalance to Dublin are optimistic almost to the point of absurdity. It's Galway-Limerick-Cork, all three working together. That is the only show in town as it currently stands.

Think of the Ruhr, basically.

BowSideChamp

Is there a point in expanding the DART network if they can't fit anymore trains across the loop line bridge? I have said it before here, they need to extend the line from Docklands up the Quays and terminate the trains in the city centre.

Idbatterim

just skimming through the report, but I am not interested in all the fluff. Is there anything in there about the revised height guidelines for dublin and reducing apartment costs?

Sleeper12

Watching Leo on the news now. It's really a load of who's shot John. Seems to be a lots of waffle to me

Idbatterim

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Watching Leo on the news now. It's really a load of who's shot John. Seems to be a lots of waffle to me

Id expect nothing else from Waffleadkar...

Sleeper12

Idbatterim wrote:

Id expect nothing else from Waffleadkar...

I'm not a FG fan but genuinely trying to give Leo the chance. I'm running out of patience at this time stage

BonnieSituation

BowSideChamp wrote: »

Is there a point in expanding the DART network if they can't fit anymore trains across the loop line bridge? I have said it before here, they need to extend the line from Docklands up the Quays and terminate the trains in the city centre.

That's part of what DART Underground was attempting to solve.

ncounties

zetalambda wrote: »

Why is that a major issue? Surely being the 3rd as opposed to 2nd city is trivial. I look forward to the day we have a united Ireland and hope it comes sooner rather than later. Then we'll have a much weaker Dublin with only 20% of the population! Now that's a major issue.

I hope they keep a few yoyos aside for the Belfast Light Rail :P - a nordie can wish!

Donegal Storm

Only skimmed through it but if I'm reading right there's not to be a single notable upgrade to public transport in Dublin in the next decade?

Metro, Dart & BusConnects are all listed as 2027 delivery (even that's probably optimistic given the track record) and no Luas expansion whatsoever planned until post 2027

We've been the fastest growing economy in Europe for 4 years now yet it seems even now there's barely a single shovel ready project in the whole country with most of these major projects still years away from even starting. Absolute joke how infrastructure planning has been handled in recent years

lawred2

Donegal Storm wrote: »

Only skimmed through it but if I'm reading right there's not to be a single notable upgrade to public transport in Dublin in the next decade?

Metro, Dart & BusConnects are all listed as 2027 delivery (even that's probably optimistic given the track record) and no Luas expansion whatsoever planned until post 2027

We've been the fastest growing economy in Europe for 4 years now yet it seems even now there's barely a single shovel ready project in the whole country with most of these major projects still years away from even starting. Absolute joke how infrastructure planning has been handled in recent years

Yup

And right on cue will be a Brexit driven recession and all these 'plans' pushed out to 2037..

Fann Linn

€22 billion committed to Climate Change and €12 billion committed to housing, considering the state of the place now they should have reprioritised those figures.

ncounties

Fann Linn wrote: »

€22 billion committed to Climate Change and €12 billion committed to housing, considering the state of the place now they should have reprioritised those figures.

A smart investment in concentrated affordable housing and apartment developments in city centres would reap emission reductions by default.

fionnsci

BowSideChamp wrote: »

Is there a point in expanding the DART network if they can't fit anymore trains across the loop line bridge? I have said it before here, they need to extend the line from Docklands up the Quays and terminate the trains in the city centre.

Would they necessarily all have to cross the river? Maynooth - Connolly? Change at Connolly for the Drogheda-Greystones line. I'm no expert on the train lines by any stretch.

hmmm

Fann Linn wrote: »

Decentralisation. We've had that already.

And it has failed. Instead we have a bunch of isolated departments, with poorly skilled staff and who find it all but impossible to hire experienced staff, who are spending a fortune driving up and down to Dublin day in day out.

This is supposed to be the national infrastructure plan, not the decentralisation plan.We're not Kazakhstan where the politicians can just decide to up and move the capital to nowhere, the fact is that Dublin will remain the engine for growth in this country - and if it stops being the engine for growth, or if we force it to stop, it will affect the entire country.

The only thing for Dublin is Metro, and the Southern part of that just duplicates existing public transport. Other than that we get the possibility of maybe some new bus routes, and there will be surveyors out looking at possible LUAS extensions after 2027.

Shn99

Was hoping for the best this morning but the plan is disappointing. Nothing really for Public transport in limerick only a few if's and buts...busconnects "might" come to Limerick ect...

joeysoap

zetalambda wrote: »

Belfast and the north will benefit the most from a united Ireland. Dublin will be negatively impacted the most, far more than Cork, Galway or Limerick. The bigger you are, the harder you fall.
I like that they plan to work on faster rail between Cork and Belfast. That means I might be able to fly international from Belfast in the future instead of always going through London and Paris!

Will the dart to drogheda affect Enteprise times on this line?

Btw - Belfast airport is grand, park right beside the terminal BUT it’s in a ****h*le of a location( the road to the airport is narrow and pretty busy )travel wise .

Btw2 - it’s currently a lot cheaper to fly from Dublin than Belfast to most places

Btw 3 - they have Fcuk all international destinations, EasyJet are the dominant airline at the airport.

marno21

4 tracking the Northern Line is a sort of requirement but the execution of such is going to cause difficulty.

lucernarian

marno21 wrote: »

4 tracking the Northern Line is a sort of requirement but the execution of such is going to cause difficulty.

If I remember correctly, 3-tracking would come in a lot cheaper than 4-tracking. I'm thinking of a document from Irish rail that read like a wishlist, but there was something like 800 million mentioned for quad, but 300 million for triple. Any exact sources would be welcome here.

The demand for increased Enterprise services is somewhat limited. If there was an hourly service in the future, it could take significant advantage of one extra track, with a Drogheda commuter right behind at similar speeds over the electrified stretch.

But the plan doesn't go into this. What we have is some unrealistic expectation of boosting capacity on all Dublin suburban routes when only the Maynooth and Newbridge services could hope to do so, without significant impact on intercity services.

So, are intercity rail services even worth that protection when only commuter rail can hope to best the traffic jams? It sticks out painfully that small measures to really increase capacity and speed on the various routes aren't talked about. No dualling to Tullamore, Carlow or indeed Mullingar that I saw.

Heartbreak Hank

Does the 11th hour change to the framework mean that one of house construction will increase rather than decrease as was originally planned? I have read pieces that said 60% of development will be one off houses. Is this just scaremongering?

Is this framework adopted or does it need to go to public consultation or through dail review or anything?

murphaph

irishfeen wrote: »

We could certainly do with the extra tax payers to help pay for this investment plan

You won't find them in Northern Ireland.

orangerhyme

Donegal Storm wrote: »

Only skimmed through it but if I'm reading right there's not to be a single notable upgrade to public transport in Dublin in the next decade?

Metro, Dart & BusConnects are all listed as 2027 delivery (even that's probably optimistic given the track record) and no Luas expansion whatsoever planned until post 2027

We've been the fastest growing economy in Europe for 4 years now yet it seems even now there's barely a single shovel ready project in the whole country with most of these major projects still years away from even starting. Absolute joke how infrastructure planning has been handled in recent years

Busconnects in Dublin is happening as we speak, it'll be rolled out over the coming years.
It doesn't require much infrastructure

nuac

Fann Linn wrote: »

Decentralisation. We've had that already.

We need to move more offices out of Dublin. With modern comms that can now be done

lisasimpson

nuac wrote: »

We need to move more offices out of Dublin. With modern comms that can now be done

Exactly but in a proper way. Not this have to send a form to one office for processing and then sent to the other end of the country for processing... some of the existing decentralised offices can be extended should be looked into. Video conferencing like what many mutlinationals use should be rolled out across the cival service..one way to reduce cost

snotboogie

hmmm wrote: »

And it has failed. Instead we have a bunch of isolated departments, with poorly skilled staff and who find it all but impossible to hire experienced staff, who are spending a fortune driving up and down to Dublin day in day out.

This is supposed to be the national infrastructure plan, not the decentralisation plan.We're not Kazakhstan where the politicians can just decide to up and move the capital to nowhere, the fact is that Dublin will remain the engine for growth in this country - and if it stops being the engine for growth, or if we force it to stop, it will affect the entire country.

The only thing for Dublin is Metro, and the Southern part of that just duplicates existing public transport. Other than that we get the possibility of maybe some new bus routes, and there will be surveyors out looking at possible LUAS extensions after 2027.

We are still the most centralized OECD nation, poor regional autonomy is bad for economic growth: https://euobserver.com/regions/28142

Proper decentralization would see increased regional autonomy, rather than random public service departments moving to Longford.

Doltanian

over €20billion for Climate Change, what a disgrace, Climate Change is an unproven pseudo-science and Trump has already told the leftwing to go to hell with that agenda and Ireland so do the same. That €20billion should be pumped into Fibre-Optic Broadband, new Motorways and High-Speed Rail and Metro lines in Dublin.

Ireland is but a mere fart in the global emissions of what is a totally unproven load of nonsense. This entire plan is a shambles and nothing will ever come of it other that divert as much public money into the hands of private corrupt cronies and nothing will be built.

OneEightSeven

Doltanian wrote: »

over €20billion for Climate Change, what a disgrace, Climate Change is an unproven pseudo-science and Trump has already told the leftwing to go to hell with that agenda and Ireland so do the same. That €20billion should be pumped into Fibre-Optic Broadband, new Motorways and High-Speed Rail and Metro lines in Dublin.

Ireland is but a mere fart in the global emissions of what is a totally unproven load of nonsense. This entire plan is a shambles and nothing will ever come of it other that divert as much public money into the hands of private corrupt cronies and nothing will be built.

Fibre-optic broadband to where?