Saturday 17/2

dk6dk6

akelly02 wrote: »

Sorry to but in ,but denman was a better operator than kauto at cheltenham.

however kauto star was the better racehorse end of story.
Denman has a grand total of 3 grade 1s over fences .
Kauto just has the 16.

Kauto done it on any track, any trip , any ground

Denman couldn’t even run around right handed courses, anytime he did he was lapped.

Not saying denman wasn’t a great chaser as he was, but beating handicappers around Newbury isn’t the same as breaking records in King George’s, betfair chases and gold cups

Without injuries I'm convinced Denman would have won more gold cups, he wasn't the same horse after suffering his irregular heartbeat.

And it wasn't Denmans fault how Paul Nichols campaigned him, actually there was a serious bias towards Kauto from both Nicholls and Ruby which made it all the sweeter when Denman destroyed Kauto in the big match up.

And your seriously underestimating Denmans weight carrying Hennessy performances, they where an absolute joy to watch.

Dress it up how you want but Denman still beat Kauto 3 times in 4 clashes.

akelly02

dk6dk6 wrote: »

Without injuries I'm convinced Denman would have won more gold cups, he wasn't the same horse after suffering his irregular heartbeat.

And it wasn't Denmans fault how Paul Nichols campaigned him, actually there was a serious bias towards Kauto from both Nicholls and Ruby which made it all the sweeter when Denman destroyed Kauto in the big match up.

And your seriously underestimating Denmans weight carrying Hennessy performances, they where an absolute joy to watch.

Dress it up how you want but Denman still beat Kauto 3 times in 4 clashes.

Dress up the ratings aswell shall we 192 kauto hit after his 4th king George

Denman got to 184 if I remember correctly.

Grade 1 form beats handicap form everyday of the week .

Again denman beaten by the likes Madison du Berlais around aintree, kauto beat him at kempton every year by the length of the straight

WickIow Brave

handsfree2 wrote: »

I'm probably talking about of my pocket but I reckon Don Cossack would have won that KG had he not tripped over the second last.

He almost certainly would have won.

yaboya1

akelly02 wrote: »

Dress up the ratings aswell shall we 192 kauto hit after his 4th king George

Denman got to 184 if I remember correctly.

Grade 1 form beats handicap form everyday of the week .

Again denman beaten by the likes Madison du Berlais around aintree, kauto beat him at kempton every year by the length of the straight

Kauto definitely achieved more, but as has been mentioned, Denman was not given the same opportunities to pick up as many Grade, 1's due to the stable's bias towards the Smith horse.

Denman never ran in the Betfair Chase for example, a race he'd have taken a huge amount of beating in. That race was responsible for four of Kauto's Grade 1's.

Using his Aintree defeats as a barometer is a poor argument. Both times he came into the Aintree race off the back of a huge Gold Cup run. Kauto himself was beaten in the same race by Our Vic when doing the same, as were many others who won/placed in Gold Cups.

He beat Madison Du Berlais the length of the straight in his first Hennessy win conceding him a stone. That's a more accurate comparison of his real ability.

On the form book and ratings Kauto is the better racehorse no doubt, but Denman was a lot closer (if not better) than those ratings suggest.

dk6dk6

akelly02 wrote: »

Dress up the ratings aswell shall we 192 kauto hit after his 4th king George

Denman got to 184 if I remember correctly.

Grade 1 form beats handicap form everyday of the week .

Again denman beaten by the likes Madison du Berlais around aintree, kauto beat him at kempton every year by the length of the straight

I understand and respect your points and after all all we can do is offer our opinions on the matter and for me personally I thought at their peaks Denman was the better horse.

And in my opinion both where at their peak in that 2008 Gold Cup and Denman destroyed him.

Gringo180

dk6dk6 wrote: »

I understand and respect your points and after all all we can do is offer our opinions on the matter and for me personally I thought at their peaks Denman was the better horse.

And in my opinion both where at their peak in that 2008 Gold Cup and Denman destroyed him.

Denmans Hennessy win carrying 11stone12lbs was one of the greatest performances ive ever seen.

dk6dk6

Gringo180 wrote: »

Denmans Hennessy win carrying 11stone12lbs was one of the greatest performances ive ever seen.

Totally agree.

yaboya1

Gringo180 wrote: »

Denmans Hennessy win carrying 11stone12lbs was one of the greatest performances ive ever seen.

x2

posturingpat

I'm in the Kauto camp. Far better animal as far as i'm concerned, Denman was very good but a bit of a bully against inferiors and needed a specific set of circumstances whereas Kauto had a variety of trips, tracks, styles of running and kept producing year after year. I adored him

WickIow Brave

Loved them both. Two heroes. We need horses like them in the game. And I think we might see some next month. Here's hoping.

akelly02

WickIow Brave wrote: »

Loved them both. Two heroes. We need horses like them in the game. And I think we might see some next month. Here's hoping.

id love to see douvan come back to his best and blow altior away

BumperD

posturingpat wrote: »

Red hot filly peppers be a decent animal whenever a real jockey rides.

Won today with same jockey on board ......just saying.

posturingpat

BumperD wrote: »

Won today with same jockey on board ......just saying.

Was going to post earlier. Gave it a clever ride too. Still a dreadful jockey and if he's ever involved in a finish it'd want to be a hell of a gutsy horse.

BumperD

I guess it’s just a hobby for him but all the same a great thrill like I Connell did. Rare in a sport you can do that , it’s like me lining out for a premiership team just never going to happen with all the money in the world. Sheik does the same on the flat.

Shemale

akelly02 wrote: »

Dress up the ratings aswell shall we 192 kauto hit after his 4th king George

Denman got to 184 if I remember correctly.

Grade 1 form beats handicap form everyday of the week .

Again denman beaten by the likes Madison du Berlais around aintree, kauto beat him at kempton every year by the length of the straight

Dress up the results shall we, you mean the race where Denman fell and MDB won it?

Kauto always had the much easier campaign, he ran in two handicaps and was beaten in both.

Much and all as Denman wasn't as good going right, Kauto wasn't as good going left.

If the King George was still a handicap Kauto would not have got near 192, in the same way if Denman put in some of his Hennessy performances off levels he would have been rated much higher.

Shemale

posturingpat wrote: »

I'm in the Kauto camp. Far better animal as far as i'm concerned, Denman was very good but a bit of a bully against inferiors and needed a specific set of circumstances whereas Kauto had a variety of trips, tracks, styles of running and kept producing year after year. I adored him

A bully who gave inferiors a chance, Kauto raced them off levels

Denman would have mullered the fields in the Lexus but always got lashed into the Hennessy. Kauto ran two handicaps and lost both.

posturingpat

Shemale wrote: »

A bully who gave inferiors a chance, Kauto raced them off levels

Denman would have mullered the fields in the Lexus but always got lashed into the Hennessy. Kauto ran two handicaps and lost both.

Track and trip's that didn't show him at his optimum yet it was 1-1 regarding winning the Gold cup, Denman might have finished better placed in the other uns but he didn't win under his ideal conditions. If Denman tried race Kauto in a King George poor Denman would've been embarassed no doubt.
Kauto different class.
I really can't get my head around the beating handicappers form being somehow more impressive than beating grade 1 horses off levels. I'll go back to the bullying of inferior caliber of animal that Denman did on numerous occasions and the consistent year after year beating of Grade 1 animals off levels in a variety of conditions of the great Kauto star. There really is no competition as far as i'm concerned.
I can only guess people somehow warmed to the fact an inferior animal put all on the line and his guts, heart and balls got him so far, which whilst admirable doesn't change the fact Kauto was the superior animal.

akelly02

Shemale wrote: »

Dress up the results shall we, you mean the race where Denman fell and MDB won it?

Kauto always had the much easier campaign, he ran in two handicaps and was beaten in both.

Much and all as Denman wasn't as good going right, Kauto wasn't as good going left.

If the King George was still a handicap Kauto would not have got near 192, in the same way if Denman put in some of his Hennessy performances off levels he would have been rated much higher.

Nicholls and Walsh are on record stating he was better going left handed as he jumped slightly left at times

And just the 4 betfairs and 2 gold cups going left handed so don’t think it bothered him

If denman ran in a king George he would have been lapped

akelly02

Shemale wrote: »

A bully who gave inferiors a chance, Kauto raced them off levels

Denman would have mullered the fields in the Lexus but always got lashed into the Hennessy. Kauto ran two handicaps and lost both.

And on the handicap point, you are wrong .

Gringo180

When Madison Du Berlais beat Denman it was after been out for over a year and he was coming back after that heart problem. He was never the same horse. He won 1 chase in 10 starts after coming back, that says it all. But when both Denman and Kauto were at there peak it was the Tank who came out on top in the most prestigous race of the year.

akelly02

Gringo180 wrote: »

When Madison Du Berlais beat Denman it was after been out for over a year and he was coming back after that heart problem. He was never the same horse. He won 1 chase in 10 starts after coming back, that says it all. But when both Denman and Kauto were at there peak it was the Tank who came out on top in the most prestigous race of the year.

If you think KS was at his peak in 08 when he never travelled, missed every second fence and was absolutely butchered to beat Neptune Collonge by a snot then you need a different hobby

Gringo180

akelly02 wrote: »

If you think KS was at his peak in 08 when he never travelled, missed every second fence and was absolutely butchered to beat Neptune Collonge by a snot then you need a different hobby

3 Grade 1 wins including winning a King George hard held that season yeah sure he wasnt at his peak. Neptune Collognes was no mug and absolutely loved a test and Denman gave it to them that day absolutely running Kauto into the ground, he couldnt even jump fluently when Denman took the lead.

akelly02

Gringo180 wrote: »

3 Grade 1 wins including winning a King George hard held that season yeah sure he wasnt at his peak. Neptune Collognes was no mug and absolutely loved a test and Denman gave it to them that day absolutely running Kauto into the ground, he couldnt even jump fluently when Denman took the lead.

Denman had his day and it ruined him, after all his loving for cheltenham kauto still won more gold cups than him .

Kauto kept coming back for more year on year picking up 16 grade ones over fences compared to denmans 3

Shemale

akelly02 wrote: »

And on the handicap point, you are wrong .

How am I wrong? He ran in two and won neither

Shemale

akelly02 wrote: »

If you think KS was at his peak in 08 when he never travelled, missed every second fence and was absolutely butchered to beat Neptune Collonge by a snot then you need a different hobby

It's you who needs a different hobby.

Denman had every horse under pressure that day. Utter nonsense disparaging Neptune to make a point, the future national winner was staying better than the front two at the end. He was rated 172 for that race, 5lbs higher than Exotic Dancer who finished second to Kauto by 1 1/2 in his first GC. Mick Fitz said at the top of the hill he thought he had Denman covered and he said he just killed us galloping down the hill.

In the 2010 GC Kauto fell, did he not go a yard there or was it proper opposition in Denman and Imperial Commander putting him under pressure

In the 2011 GC he was beaten 11L did he not got a yard that day or was it proper opposition Denman and then Long Run

They were both top class horses, it's a real shame Denman had the heart problem but an RSA a Hennessy and the a Gold Cup in 12 months is a brutal campaign for a horse.

akelly02

Shemale wrote: »

How am I wrong? He ran in two and won neither

He did win one .

akelly02

Shemale wrote: »

It's you who needs a different hobby.

Denman had every horse under pressure that day. Utter nonsense disparaging Neptune to make a point, the future national winner was staying better than the front two at the end. He was rated 172 for that race, 5lbs higher than Exotic Dancer who finished second to Kauto by 1 1/2 in his first GC. Mick Fitz said at the top of the hill he thought he had Denman covered and he said he just killed us galloping down the hill.

In the 2010 GC Kauto fell, did he not go a yard there or was it proper opposition in Denman and Imperial Commander putting him under pressure

In the 2011 GC he was beaten 11L did he not got a yard that day or was it proper opposition Denman and then Long Run

They were both top class horses, it's a real shame Denman had the heart problem but an RSA a Hennessy and the a Gold Cup in 12 months is a brutal campaign for a horse.

In 2010 he nearly camedown after the uphill fence so that was the end of that

2011 finished tamely after taking it up a circuit out

Shemale

akelly02 wrote: »

He did win one .

I'll give you that the filter on ATR is showing two and he was beaten in both, I went old school and saw the one he won.

akelly02

Shemale wrote: »

I'll give you that the filter on ATR is showing two and he was beaten in both, I went old school and saw the one he won.

Just thought I’d make you work to find out 😜

Shemale

akelly02 wrote: »

Just thought I’d make you work to find out ��

Ya bollix

akelly02

Shemale wrote: »

Ya bollix

Only for the racing post I forgot he won one aswell !

Moscow is magnificent

Nearly 10 years on and people still arguing about KS and Denman shows just how magnificent both animals were really. Racing could do with another similar top class rivalry at the minute for the championship races. Such a shame the way things went Douvan, if him and Altior were going in to this Festival unbeaten over fences just imagine the hype!!A good rivalry in the championship races is one of the few things missing from the festival this year

dk6dk6

Moscow is magnificent wrote: »

Nearly 10 years on and people still arguing about KS and Denman shows just how magnificent both animals were really. Racing could do with another similar top class rivalry at the minute for the championship races. Such a shame the way things went Douvan, if him and Altior were going in to this Festival unbeaten over fences just imagine the hype!!A good rivalry in the championship races is one of the few things missing from the festival this year

It is great that it's still talked about. I can't remember a match like the build up to that 2008 Gold Cup. Everyone had an opinion on it