Irish Rail had a tough Friday evening

Stellaluna

https://twitter.com/irishrail/status/964644075222765568

Rather takes the shine off the publishing of the customer satisfaction survey results 😮

I suppose this sort of problem doesn’t usually get this out of hand but hopefully some contingency planning will be built around what happened.

RobbingBandit

And I thought the 5:02 pm from Newry enterprise I was on being 12 minutes late into Dublin last night was bad enough.

Okon

I like the way they published the delay time in minutes, which is fine for your run-of-the-mill 6/15/24 min delays but once you run in to multiples of hours you might as well put hours!

Jamie2k9

Stellaluna wrote: »

https://twitter.com/irishrail/status/964644075222765568

Rather takes the shine off the publishing of the customer satisfaction survey results 😮

I suppose this sort of problem doesn’t usually get this out of hand but hopefully some contingency planning will be built around what happened.

Its become a regular thing to cause 3-4 hour disruption.

Most admit suprised single line was not put in place and/or a detraining of the 17.00 line side.

I fully accept IE had a lot of problems but what happened last night was far from acceptable and little changes from each incident.

Carawaystick

what was the cause of the delay?

Nomis21

What about the 20.00 hrs Dublin to Cork? I presume no mention of this train means it was cancelled?

Stellaluna

The Heuston - Cork service broke down outside Charleviille somewhere, a relief engine was brought to the train to get them moving again but there seemed to be some problems coupling the new engine to the train. Passengers were stranded on the train until it could get moving. The other delays were related to this train being in the way. That’s what I made of the twitter feed anyhow. I’m (evidently) far from an expert so I’m sure someone will be along to explain it better.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Its become a regular thing to cause 3-4 hour disruption.

Most admit suprised single line was not put in place and/or a detraining of the 17.00 line side.

I fully accept IE had a lot of problems but what happened last night was far from acceptable and little changes from each incident.

I didn’t realise it was a regular thing (I wouldn’t have bothered with the thread otherwise). I just thought it was particularly bad that passengers were stuck on the train for the length of the delay.

Jamie2k9

Nomis21 wrote: »

What about the 20.00 hrs Dublin to Cork? I presume no mention of this train means it was cancelled?

The 20.00 was cancelled around 9 years ago!

I didn’t realise it was a regular thing (I wouldn’t have bothered with the thread otherwise). I just thought it was particularly bad that passengers were stuck on the train for the length of the delay.

Well regular may be a bit harsh but there have been a couple of 3+ hour delays in the last few weeks. Other times they usually get it into a station within 2 hours.

Doltanian

E.g. if this happened on a Dublin bound service could you sue Iarnrod Eireann for missing a flight etc. because of this? Those old Locomotives are 25 years old now and should really be replaced with something more modern.

Mycroft H

25 year old isn't that old in rail terms. It's relatively young.

Some locos in the UK are about 40-50 years old...

Seth Brundle

Mycroft H wrote: »

25 year old isn't that old in rail terms. It's relatively young.

Some locos in the UK are about 40-50 years old...

If breakdowns are a regular thing here though then it suggests poor quality maintenance?

dowlingm

Doltanian wrote: »

E.g. if this happened on a Dublin bound service could you sue Iarnrod Eireann for missing a flight etc. because of this? Those old Locomotives are 25 years old now and should really be replaced with something more modern.

as said below 25 years isn't excessive, VIA Rail Canada has almost 30 years on their F40PH units - same engine as IE 071s, but 16 valves instead of 12 - BUT they had a full rebuild and some upgrades about nine years ago.
http://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/media-room/latest-news/62134/16-july-2009-via-receives-first-environmentally-enhanced

Excessive is the 1950s DMUs and 1940s coaches...
http://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/our-fleet/galley-club-car

Losty Dublin

Stellaluna wrote: »

The Heuston - Cork service broke down outside Charleviille somewhere, a relief engine was brought to the train to get them moving again but there seemed to be some problems coupling the new engine to the train. Passengers were stranded on the train until it could get moving.

The loco that was hauling the 17:00 failed on the Dublin side of Charleville. After a few attempts to remedy the situation, a loco was sent up from Cork to haul the train into Kent. Upon hooking it up, the rescue engine wasn't able to build up enough air pressure to be able to haul the entire train back. The decision was made to take off the failed engine and to leave it at Charleville, with the rescue engine then hauling the train home. A very long night for all concerned.

Doltanian

Could they not just put a loco on the front and back to use in the event one gives up? Since the ICR Railcars came in my understanding was that they have spare locos now.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Losty Dublin

Doltanian wrote: »

Could they not just put a loco on the front and back to use in the event one gives up? Since the ICR Railcars came in my understanding was that they have spare locos now.

In this case the failed loco was at the front of the train so no, it wouldn't have helped, but a loco can connect at the cab trailer end in the event of an emergency.

Fred Swanson wrote:

It would have been quicker to fetch a loco from Limerick. Also the disable train could have been placed in a siding/loop to minimise disruption.

Why did they not institute single line working on the down line? Use it to it's full potential. Probably would need a pilotman though.

The GM200's are nothing but scrap, but healthy older engines have gone to the scrap line to make way for the Korean rubbish.

There was a loco to hand in Cork. As a rule there are none in Limerick but if there was it would have taken ages.

Not sure why piloting wasn't brought in but if there was an expectation of moving the failed train then it wouldn't have been considered.

Jamie2k9

Losty Dublin wrote: »

In this case the failed loco was at the front of the train so no, it wouldn't have helped, but a loco can connect at the cab trailer end in the event of an emergency.

There was a loco to hand in Cork. As a rule there are none in Limerick but if there was it would have taken ages.

Not sure why piloting wasn't brought in but if there was an expectation of moving the failed train then it wouldn't have been considered.

Given the increased frequency of failures (worse the Belfast now), a 201 or even 071 should be stabled at Limerick J to go to the rescue (plenty of drivers)

While brake pressure was a problem how SLW was not introduced after an hour is a mystery and something IE should be accountable for. Lack of staff, person who give clearance? SLW should be the second priority in any failure once a quick assessment is carried out. Had the failure happened before Kildare you can be sure what happened on Friday night wouldn't of happened.

There is an expectation but I mean at what time do you draw the line before acting? IMO 2 hours is a fair estimate however prep work having people ready should be done before.

Had a locomotive been attached at the other end would they have encountered the same brake issues and they are allowed to carry passengers with a 201 in front of the control car as they would of had a second driver to operate doors. Yes there was a train behind but it could of been moved.

If breakdowns are a regular thing here though then it suggests poor quality maintenance?

To a degree yes maintenance schedules could be part of the problem but I guess at times some problems are unforeseen.

The loco that was hauling the 17:00 failed on the Dublin side of Charleville. After a few attempts to remedy the situation, a loco was sent up from Cork to haul the train into Kent. Upon hooking it up, the rescue engine wasn't able to build up enough air pressure to be able to haul the entire train back. The decision was made to take off the failed engine and to leave it at Charleville, with the rescue engine then hauling the train home. A very long night for all concerned.

In the many 201 failures and those serious ones, they have never been able to attach a 201 to 201 and bring the train forward. In every case they have had to remove the failed one first because of braking issues.

Have they ever managed to actually execute what they planned on Friday night in recent times with a Mark IV. Its so uncommon the probability of it working was low and prehaps an element of naivety.

ClmAlfie

My daughter was on this train last friday night. She got this train in Limerick at 5.50 and was supposed to be in Millstreet station at 7.30/7.40. It was 12am when the train came into Millstreet
It seems the cause of the breakdown was the brakes. A loud bang was heard from the front of the train and the train stopped. A locomotive was brought up from Cork to transfer people from the broken down train to the loco (don't know if this was true) but this was abandoned due to safety reasons. Another was to take the train back to Limerick Junction and again this was abandoned. l'm not sure what they did to get it moving but when they did, it only took about 20 seconds to go into Charleville station!
No regular updates on board and the only way to get info was on Twitter
It also caused delays to other trains. People missed their buses, had to get taxis to get home
Toilets were blocked or overflowing, and Didn't have enough tea,coffee etc for everyone
As for refunds on trains, 50% of cash or 100% value in vouchers!

But the one thing that really bothered my daughter, she was literally was bursting to go to the toilet!
It was a along night!

goingnowhere

This does sound like train hit something which damaged one or both of the air brake pipes or a pipe or tank blew out. Would result in an immediate and quick stop.

Rescue locomotive would not be able to establish brake continuity and you cannot have an un-braked passenger train so they dragged it off and dumped it, then once connected up off you go.

All that said it would have been fairly obvious from the get go what the issue was a the delay of 1 hour to send the rescue locomotive is the real issue here

Jamie2k9

goingnowhere wrote: »

This does sound like train hit something which damaged one or both of the air brake pipes or a pipe or tank blew out. Would result in an immediate and quick stop.

Rescue locomotive would not be able to establish brake continuity and you cannot have an un-braked passenger train so they dragged it off and dumped it, then once connected up off you go.

All that said it would have been fairly obvious from the get go what the issue was a the delay of 1 hour to send the rescue locomotive is the real issue here

and the time they tried to connect them, loco probally there by 8.45 (2 hour after failure) and it didn't arrive into Charleville until 23.18.

There was probally 2.5 hours wasted of the 4.5 hour delay unless they couldn't release the brakes on the 201 to move it to Charleville.

end of the road

Mycroft H wrote: »

25 year old isn't that old in rail terms. It's relatively young.

Some locos in the UK are about 40-50 years old...

the oldest main line class is around the 60 mark (the class 20) . the shunters ( classes 8 and 9) are older again i think. good old simple tech like that will just keep going and going if it's cost effective enough to keep them going.

tabbey

kbannon wrote: »

If breakdowns are a regular thing here though then it suggests poor quality maintenance?

The 201 class has always been unreliable, because it is too complex.
The older GM-EMD fleet was very reliable.

In Victoria, Australia, some of the B class built 1952, were still working on my last visit in 2012, aged 60. Some may still be running for all I know.

Keep it simple, stupid, (KISS) is an old maxim.

The trouble with locos and railcars, like modern motor cars, is that they are controlled by computers, and are no longer simple.

Jamie2k9

201s are not that bad once they are taken care of, like everything but there will always be exceptions such as this. Its dealing with the fallout where IE fall short again. Friday evening and the important lads are finished for the weekend and feck the public and staff operating those services.

They should really question all decisions made from when the driver would of spoken to maintenance on the night.

If they were proactive, a 201 should have been dispatched from Cork by 19.30 at the latest. Plenty of drivers, around the station who could of did it while those on standby could of filled in once they arrived.

Plan for the worst and hope for the best should be IEs motto...

Seth Brundle

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Its dealing with the fallout where IE fall short again. Friday evening and the important lads are finished for the weekend and feck the public and staff operating those services.

They should really question all decisions made from when the driver would of spoken to maintenance on the night.

By all accounts there was almost communication blackout on board. If those on the train were only really getting info via Twitter then it shows a failure by IR.
Trains breakdown but you need to communicate with your customers. Ask any viable company if they would operate like this and see what they say!

Jamie2k9

kbannon wrote: »

By all accounts there was almost communication blackout on board. If those on the train were only really getting info via Twitter then it shows a failure by IR.
Trains breakdown but you need to communicate with your customers. Ask any viable company if they would operate like this and see what they say!

Its the hosts job to communicate, while the info he knew would be limited it would be common courtesy for them to at least keep passengers informed even if it was a case of saying he was trying to get more information or from looking at twitter himself. One thing I will say is the person on twitter was fantasitc and in previous cases IE didn't usually tend to be as responsive.

Most Irish Rail hosts should take a spin on a NIR operated service to Belfast and see how to do their jobs.

NTA should also step up and have fines issued on the next round of rail contracts, anything over 2.5 hours and IE should be held accountable by the NTA and fined significant sums of money for all issues which are within their control. Had IE been a private operator and basing fines on the UK system it would of cost them just shy of €50,000 for blocking the line with the failed train and every single other train behind would of also cost them money. Its around £150 a minute per delay per train.