New Worldwide Handicap System

tritriagain

When is it kicking in here. This year or next?

Snotty

Golfgraffix wrote: »

The question that the unions won’t answer is will your handicap index be based on your playing history with slope or without.

It will make a substantial difference as a kicking off point.

J

Data is there with the slope so if they do not it's only for convenience and laziness

prawnsambo

Snotty wrote: »

Data is there with the slope so if they do not it's only for convenience and laziness

Club software like HandicapMaster will have it built in, so it seems logical that initial handicaps under the WHS will be based on a look back of scores to create an accurate handicap index. .

Golfgraffix

prawnsambo wrote: »

Club software like HandicapMaster will have it built in, so it seems logical that initial handicaps under the WHS will be based on a look back of scores to create an accurate handicap index. .

You would think so but not yet

Mantis Toboggan

Do we know when will the slope ratings be released?

Snotty

prawnsambo wrote: »

Club software like HandicapMaster will have it built in, so it seems logical that initial handicaps under the WHS will be based on a look back of scores to create an accurate handicap index. .

I'm wondering would the GUI actually calculate it, they would have all the data, last 20 rounds and the slope of each course that round was played on, could they provide the handicap for all members and the club software will manage it from then on

prawnsambo

Golfgraffix wrote: »

You would think so but not yet

Well HandicapMaster currently handles the EGA handicap system which is not far removed from the WHS. Don't see any announcement from them on when they will have it included though.
Edit: Actually they made this announcement back in September:

We have now been called to a meeting in late September 2019 in which we hope CONGU will start to explain the changes and give guidance as to what will be required.

At the current time, we have no detailed technical information from CONGU we can provide and we look forward to the golf unions and CONGU starting their conversation with the handicapping software suppliers soon.

We can confirm that we are working to implement the World Handicap System, and await full details to complete development in the HandicapMaster product range for our customers.

Snotty wrote: »

I'm wondering would the GUI actually calculate it, they would have all the data, last 20 rounds and the slope of each course that round was played on, could they provide the handicap for all members and the club software will manage it from then on

Handicapping is the responsibility of the individual clubs. All clubs these days would have identical records to the GUI. That's where the GUI get their records from in the first place.

prawnsambo

Seems that CONGU are dragging their heels a bit in getting the info out to the software suppliers. Clearly not urgent yet, seeing as it doesn't come into force until November this year, but in the meantime, here's the USGA version of WHS which will be close enough to the system we will be using with the following caveats:

Rule 2.1a
The list of 'Authorised Formats' will be limited in the UK and Ireland to those which count as Qualifying under CONGU at present (except in Ireland where Matchplay will be included)
Rule 3.3
"..their most likely score ..." will not apply
Rule 6.1a & 6.1b
The last blue boxes in the formulae referring to (CR-Par) will not apply. (This was noted in the Golf Digest article above.)

Note: I had to reduce the quality of the attached pdf to get under the 5Mb limit imposed by boards. Consequently, the inline images are extremely pixellated (but just about readable).
Edit: Fixed that now. Should be a lot clearer.

Golfgraffix

"prawnsambo wrote:

Handicapping is the responsibility of the individual clubs. All clubs these days would have identical records to the GUI. That's where the GUI get their records from in the first place.

From November it won’t be done at club level. All the club will do through the software is report the scores. All calculation and handicap history will be on the Golf Ireland side.

prawnsambo

Golfgraffix wrote: »

From November it won’t be done at club level. All the club will do through the software is report the scores. All calculation and handicap history will be on the Golf Ireland side.

Is that confirmed? The software suppliers seem to be under the impression that they have to build the WHS into their software.

Golfgraffix

prawnsambo wrote: »

Is that confirmed? The software suppliers seem to be under the impression that they have to build the WHS into their software.

They do have a lot of work to do in preparing the data to send and to receive back but I am pretty sure that most of it will be done on the new Golf IRELAND site.

All the CONGU unions except Scotland are using a New Zealand company to build the backend.

prawnsambo

Golfgraffix wrote: »

They do have a lot of work to do in preparing the data to send and to receive back but I am pretty sure that most of it will be done on the new Golf IRELAND site.

All the CONGU unions except Scotland are using a New Zealand company to build the backend.

Yeah. But Scottish golf clubs are up in arms about Scottish Golf's approach of developing their own system and requiring clubs to use it. The article I've linked seems to suggest that the other CONGU unions are continuing with the present system of having handicapping systems in clubs.

There are many ISVs (Independent Software Vendors) at present who are all licensed by CONGU [theCouncil of National Golf Unions] and presently provide versions of software which cover back office as well as competition and handicapping seamlessly with the existing CDH (Central Database of Handicaps) system. We have a good working relationship with our present ISV and have been using their software since 2000 because it best suits our needs.

Scottish Golf for some reason has decided to develop its own new CDH away from the other three CONGU nations. This means that Scottish Golf is paying for developing its own version of software rather that paying a quarter of the costs of developing a joint system with the other nations – to do exactly the same calculations and processes. This cannot be a sensible use of Scottish golfers’ money.

Edit: Currently GolfNet and ISV systems exchange data to maintain handicap records. From what I'm reading above (between the lines) is that this will continue.

paulos53

With the arrival of WHS the USGA have made changes to their Handicap Allowances. It will be interested to see if Ireland & UK will do the same.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/Appendix%20C%20Handicap%20Allowances.htm

Some notable changes:

Individual Stableford and Strokeplay: Reduced from 100% to 95%
Fourball Stableford and Strokeplay: Reduced from 90% to 85%

No change for Individual and Fourball matchplay

They also have the following exception:

Field sizes have an impact on equity and should be considered when determining handicap allowances for a specific event and format of play.

The recommended handicap allowance for all individual stroke play formats of play is set at 95% for medium-sized field net events, of at least 30 players. For a field size of fewer than 30 players, the recommendation would be to increase the handicap allowance to 100%.

Rikand

Probably doesnt apply as much here as all our club competitions would always have more than 30 playing in them. Handicap+slope should account for everything.

They need handicap adjustments like that in the US since everyone plays off semi made up handicaps anyway, applying a deduction evens up the artificially high with the artificially low

HighLine

Rikand wrote: »

Probably doesnt apply as much here as all our club competitions would always have more than 30 playing in them. Handicap+slope should account for everything.

They need handicap adjustments like that in the US since everyone plays off semi made up handicaps anyway, applying a deduction evens up the artificially high with the artificially low

But the USGA changes highlighted above are for fields of 30+.

Will definitely be interesting to see if a similar reduction will be implemented here.

GreeBo

Rikand wrote: »

Probably doesnt apply as much here as all our club competitions would always have more than 30 playing in them. Handicap+slope should account for everything.

They need handicap adjustments like that in the US since everyone plays off semi made up handicaps anyway, applying a deduction evens up the artificially high with the artificially low

Frequently ladies competitions wouldnt have 30 players, half that if they are lucky

dan_ep82

There will need to be an app or something automatic at every course to figure this out at this rate.

lowelife

dan_ep82 wrote: »

There will need to be an app or something automatic at every course to figure this out at this rate.

You mean like the computer :rolleyes: (that most if not all have?)

dan_ep82

lowelife wrote: »

You mean like the computer :rolleyes: (that most if not all have?)

Not sure why your having a go ?

Computers break down, power outages, slow updates on HC changes. All would need a manual calculation then.

GreeBo

Is the size of the field determined before or only after the comp completes?
Bit unfair if your handicap changes mid/after your round. Could impact decisions in stableford or vpar.

Golfgraffix

dan_ep82 wrote: »

There will need to be an app or something automatic at every course to figure this out at this rate.

Its being built right now, will be out as a companion to the new Golf Ireland Website.

jj72

prawnsambo wrote: »

Seems that CONGU are dragging their heels a bit in getting the info out to the software suppliers. Clearly not urgent yet, seeing as it doesn't come into force until November this year, but in the meantime, here's the USGA version of WHS which will be close enough to the system we will be using with the following caveats:

Rule 2.1a
The list of 'Authorised Formats' will be limited in the UK and Ireland to those which count as Qualifying under CONGU at present (except in Ireland where Matchplay will be included)
Rule 3.3
"..their most likely score ..." will not apply
Rule 6.1a & 6.1b
The last blue boxes in the formulae referring to (CR-Par) will not apply. (This was noted in the Golf Digest article above.)

Note: I had to reduce the quality of the attached pdf to get under the 5Mb limit imposed by boards. Consequently, the inline images are extremely pixellated (but just about readable).
Edit: Fixed that now. Should be a lot clearer.

Am I right in saying that casual rounds will not count towards handicaps?

mjsc1970

jj72 wrote: »

Am I right in saying that casual rounds will not count towards handicaps?

I hope you're right

gypsy79

jj72 wrote: »

Am I right in saying that casual rounds will not count towards handicaps?

They will need to be declared before hand. It isnt a necessity to include them

downthemiddle

jj72 wrote: »

Am I right in saying that casual rounds will not count towards handicaps?

No, but it must be declared as a qualifying round before tee off.

jj72

downthemiddle wrote: »

No, but it must be declared as a qualifying round before tee off.

Thanks,,, Out of interest, what would declaring entail? Signing in on the computer?

downthemiddle

jj72 wrote: »

Thanks,,, Out of interest, what would declaring entail? Signing in on the computer?

I presume so. There will be information meetings for clubs next month when things will, hopefully, become a little clearer.

Seve OB

jj72 wrote: »

Thanks,,, Out of interest, what would declaring entail? Signing in on the computer?

we don't know yet. will probably be different here. think i read they are thinking only a few rounds like that allowed per year. in us, would be nearly every round

dan_ep82

I wonder is the plan still to go ahead with this or not.

Depending on when competitions are back on it could be your next competition is under the WHS

prawnsambo

dan_ep82 wrote: »

I wonder is the plan still to go ahead with this or not.

Depending on when competitions are back on it could be your next competition is under the WHS

A lot of courses still have to be assessed and rated. I doubt that's been going on at the moment, so it will be backlogged too.