New Worldwide Handicap System

hurleronditch

Wichita Lineman wrote: »

In Moate the ladies can win any prize in an open and there is a Ladies category in the normal weekend club competitions. The only competitions they cant enter are the Scratch Cups and then in the Presidents & Captains there is a seperate 13 hole comp for them on the day of the final. This happens in reverse for the Men on Lady Captain / Presidents day.

That’s exactly the way it should be really

prawnsambo

Wichita Lineman wrote: »

In Moate the ladies can win any prize in an open and there is a Ladies category in the normal weekend club competitions. The only competitions they cant enter are the Scratch Cups and then in the Presidents & Captains there is a seperate 13 hole comp for them on the day of the final. This happens in reverse for the Men on Lady Captain / Presidents day.

More clubs should do this really. Have a look at Opens that are published on GolfNet and it's rare enough.

blue note

Wichita Lineman wrote: »

In Moate the ladies can win any prize in an open and there is a Ladies category in the normal weekend club competitions. The only competitions they cant enter are the Scratch Cups and then in the Presidents & Captains there is a seperate 13 hole comp for them on the day of the final. This happens in reverse for the Men on Lady Captain / Presidents day.

I'm genuinely impressed with that. It should be the norm.

bustercherry

blue note wrote: »

A problem the club I grew up in has is that it's too long from the blues for heaps of the members. A problem shared with clubs around the country no doubt. The result is they barely play comps from them and a lot of the members won't play in them because they don't find them enjoyable.

This new system offers a solution for this. Sadly I can't imagine it will be used. It also offers the choice of having men and women compete together. To me this sounds brilliant. If I was a lady I'd be enraged that I'm never allowed out on Sunday mornings. Golf is a perfect game to play together, but I don't see it being used.

I really don't get how it does. If player A decides to play off different tee boxes than player B in a competition, they are effectively playing 2 different courses and cannot see how it can be deemed the same competition as per the rules/committee deciding the course. There is already provision for this, run 2 separate comps at the same time and members can choose which one they want to enter.

My understanding is the handicap "could" be adjusted depending on the competition course setup but you can't just decide to play whatever tees suit you.

blue note

You would need the members to accept it's not a perfect system and go with it. For me the advantages would far outweigh the cons. I'm thinking of my father and those older members who I'd have 80 yards on from the tee (handicap a couple of shots better, but that's a different story). But it would be a far more enjoyable round for a lot of those guys to play off the forward tees and I'd quite like to play off the blues from time to time.

I would think that out of pride a lot of members would still play from the whites. And I also suspect that they'd have to restrict playing from the blues to keep up pace of play (because you just know some eejits off 24 would decide they're more suited to the back tees). But at least if the option is there you could use it. As I say, there's no perfect system.

As someone was saying a few posts ago, they have comps where men and women compete, so clearly it's allowed already.

Russman

blue note wrote: »

You would need the members to accept it's not a perfect system and go with it. For me the advantages would far outweigh the cons. I'm thinking of my father and those older members who I'd have 80 yards on from the tee (handicap a couple of shots better, but that's a different story). But it would be a far more enjoyable round for a lot of those guys to play off the forward tees and I'd quite like to play off the blues from time to time.

I would think that out of pride a lot of members would still play from the whites. And I also suspect that they'd have to restrict playing from the blues to keep up pace of play (because you just know some eejits off 24 would decide they're more suited to the back tees). But at least if the option is there you could use it. As I say, there's no perfect system.

As someone was saying a few posts ago, they have comps where men and women compete, so clearly it's allowed already.

I get the sentiment and could possibly be convinced to agree with you, but lets say at the moment - the handicap system is (granted, in theory) supposed to even things out so a scratch player can play against a 20 handicapper, fair enough. Now, assuming that's the same rough premise with the new system, I'm not sure introducing a second "in theory" item, i.e. that the slope ratings will fairly account for different tees etc., is a good idea. Personally I've no real issue with it either way, but can see it leading to issues if the guys who play off the forward tees keep winning, or the guys who play off the back tees in order to gain an extra shot keep winning.
I dunno, its a minefield. I mean, to follow it through, if the system was actually working properly, there'd be no need for anyone to select different tees other than not fancying a given set on a given day.

Seve OB

bustercherry wrote: »

I really don't get how it does. If player A decides to play off different tee boxes than player B in a competition, they are effectively playing 2 different courses and cannot see how it can be deemed the same competition as per the rules/committee deciding the course. There is already provision for this, run 2 separate comps at the same time and members can choose which one they want to enter.

My understanding is the handicap "could" be adjusted depending on the competition course setup but you can't just decide to play whatever tees suit you.

I agree with this

blue note wrote: »

You would need the members to accept it's not a perfect system and go with it. For me the advantages would far outweigh the cons. I'm thinking of my father and those older members who I'd have 80 yards on from the tee (handicap a couple of shots better, but that's a different story). But it would be a far more enjoyable round for a lot of those guys to play off the forward tees and I'd quite like to play off the blues from time to time.

So have different comps from different tees.

blue note wrote: »

I would think that out of pride a lot of members would still play from the whites. And I also suspect that they'd have to restrict playing from the blues to keep up pace of play (because you just know some eejits off 24 would decide they're more suited to the back tees). But at least if the option is there you could use it. As I say, there's no perfect system.

Not necessarily so as most bad golfers would be loosing most of their shots close to the green


Anyway, all this talk of mixing the comps up etc. Yes I feel the new system allows for it. But I haven’t seen anywhere that they have approved it. As far as I can tell, it was someone here just speculating and all of a sudden it is happening.

So anyone care to point out something which I may have missed?

prawnsambo

Seve OB wrote: »

Anyway, all this talk of mixing the comps up etc. Yes I feel the new system allows for it. But I haven’t seen anywhere that they have approved it. As far as I can tell, it was someone here just speculating and all of a sudden it is happening.

So anyone care to point out something which I may have missed?

It already happens with mixed tee competitions between women and men. And that's without slope ratings, just an assumption that the women's tees are equivalent to the men's (given that men won't play off them obviously ).
It's entirely up to clubs to do this. It has no effect on handicapping, so of no interest to the NGBs. Results and ranking in competitions are entirely the domain of clubs.

blue note

As above. It's already done so I don't think it needs to be proved again. And as regards introducing another variable - it will. Sometimes that will bring the handicaps closer to equalising it out and sometimes further. But in my first course once you went to the blues, a significant proportion of the members wouldn't play because they couldn't compete from the blues. So playing off different tees isn't the same for everyone already.

And as regards bad golfers losing shots mostly around the green - they lose them everywhere. I'm relatively young for a golfer and a heap of the guys I play with are fine for distance, not the worst around the green, but have occasional disasters, but also have disasters due to wild shots. Put them on the back tees and they could be hitting more drivers and longer clubs into the greens. And looking for balls.

54and56

blue note wrote: »

But in my first course once you went to the blues, a significant proportion of the members wouldn't play because they couldn't compete from the blues. So playing off different tees isn't the same for everyone already.

But isn't that a weakness and reflection of the current handicapping system which the new system is more likely to fix?

prawnsambo

54and56 wrote: »

But isn't that a weakness and reflection of the current handicapping system which the new system is more likely to fix?

It is. Blue Note is pretty much saying that. He's just pointing out how the current system doesn't allow for a format that could prove popular under the new system.

paulos53

Congu currently allow different tees to be used in the same competition so WHS isn't offering anything new here.


Basically the difference in the SSS is applied to give new handicaps for the competition. However this adjustment is ignored when calculating the CSS for each tee.

prawnsambo

paulos53 wrote: »

Congu currently allow different tees to be used in the same competition so WHS isn't offering anything new here.


Basically the difference in the SSS is applied to give new handicaps for the competition. However this adjustment is ignored when calculating the CSS for each tee.

Yeah. That's the main difference. But currently SSS difference isn't used in stableford competitions, just pure strokeplay. Not even in pseudo-strokeplay comps like maximum score.

hurleronditch

bustercherry wrote: »

I really don't get how it does. If player A decides to play off different tee boxes than player B in a competition, they are effectively playing 2 different courses and cannot see how it can be deemed the same competition as per the rules/committee deciding the course. There is already provision for this, run 2 separate comps at the same time and members can choose which one they want to enter.

My understanding is the handicap "could" be adjusted depending on the competition course setup but you can't just decide to play whatever tees suit you.

But you can?

It isn’t perfect, but handicaps aren’t perfect as they are under CONGU. Is a guy who plays singles 3 times a week and always returns his card operating off a level playing field with a guy who plays lots of casual and team comps and sandbags his 4 qualifying rounds, so he can pitch up for the captains ready to go? Nope.

It feels unusual, but everyone will have a choice. Do I pitch up and play the tips off 15, or do I play off the yellows with 11? Some weeks the lads off the tips might have an advantage depending on conditions and wind, but some weeks it’ll suit to go out the front.

Once things are held consistent for the majors (or at least for the overall prizes) it should be good for club golf and very interesting

bustercherry

hurleronditch wrote: »

But you can?

It isn’t perfect, but handicaps aren’t perfect as they are under CONGU. Is a guy who plays singles 3 times a week and always returns his card operating off a level playing field with a guy who plays lots of casual and team comps and sandbags his 4 qualifying rounds, so he can pitch up for the captains ready to go? Nope.

It feels unusual, but everyone will have a choice. Do I pitch up and play the tips off 15, or do I play off the yellows with 11? Some weeks the lads off the tips might have an advantage depending on conditions and wind, but some weeks it’ll suit to go out the front.

Once things are held consistent for the majors (or at least for the overall prizes) it should be good for club golf and very interesting

Jesus Christ, how is that the same as choosing what course tees to play off in a comp. The new handicap system won’t prevent this either.

prawnsambo

bustercherry wrote: »

Jesus Christ, how is that the same as choosing what course tees to play off in a comp. The new handicap system won’t prevent this either.

Well it will do a better job. A lookback over twenty rounds will pick up all those 'excellent' rounds at the Captain's Prize and adjust their handicap accordingly. Up to three years if there aren't sufficient in the current year.

hurleronditch

bustercherry wrote: »

Jesus Christ, how is that the same as choosing what course tees to play off in a comp. The new handicap system won’t prevent this either.

It’s not “the same” but it’s an example of when the actions of other players, not related to swinging the golf club during the 18 holes, unilaterally impacts your chance of winning

thewobbler

I always find it funny, the notion that people who rarely play much competitive golf, can simply slip into gear for a club’s majors.

Whereas the idea that in a field of several hundred golfers, one of them might have an unusually hot day with the putter, and shoot in the mid-forties, well that’s just clinically insane. Indeed I must be part of the cheating masses even to consider it.

prawnsambo

thewobbler wrote: »

I always find it funny, the notion that people who rarely play much competitive golf, can simply slip into gear for a club’s majors.

Whereas the idea that in a field of several hundred golfers, one of them might have an unusually hot day with the putter, and shoot in the mid-forties, well that’s just clinically insane. Indeed I must be part of the cheating masses even to consider it.

It's one of those irregular verbs: I excelled, he sandbagged.

bustercherry

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well it will do a better job. A lookback over twenty rounds will pick up all those 'excellent' rounds at the Captain's Prize and adjust their handicap accordingly. Up to three years if there aren't sufficient in the current year.

We weren't discussing the merits of the current system over the new one and cheating, what don't you get?

This is just waffle from someone trying to win a percieved argument.

prawnsambo

bustercherry wrote: »

We weren't discussing the merits of the current system over the new one and cheating, what don't you get?

This is just waffle from someone trying to win a percieved argument.

So you didn't say this?

bustercherry wrote: »

Jesus Christ, how is that the same as choosing what course tees to play off in a comp. The new handicap system won’t prevent this either.

bustercherry

hurleronditch wrote: »

It’s not “the same” but it’s an example of when the actions of other players, not related to swinging the golf club during the 18 holes, unilaterally impacts your chance of winning

No it's an example of cheating, just like taking a drop from the wrong place because you get a better lie or the old leather wedge. Nether of which have anything to do with whether comps will allow a player to choose which tees they play off and no matter what you do, there will always be cheats.

If the new system allows for players to choose what tees they play, then the playinghandicaps compensate (if we are to believe) and in theory it makes no difference to players chances of winning. Is that not the point?

bustercherry

prawnsambo wrote: »

So you didn't say this?

If someone what's to game the handicap system they will. It's not that hard whether it is the old or new system.

bustercherry

thewobbler wrote: »

I always find it funny, the notion that people who rarely play much competitive golf, can simply slip into gear for a club’s majors.

Whereas the idea that in a field of several hundred golfers, one of them might have an unusually hot day with the putter, and shoot in the mid-forties, well that’s just clinically insane. Indeed I must be part of the cheating masses even to consider it.

Agreed.

In the last 10 years of captains prizes in 2 different clubs, I've only seen this once (member month prior captains and clearly allocated the wrong handicap). The people "who clearly" manage their handicaps never feature as it's not that easy to put 2 competitive round of golf together in a large field.

prawnsambo

bustercherry wrote: »

If someone what's to game the handicap system they will. It's not that hard whether it is the old or new system.

So what I posted wasn't "just waffle from someone trying to win a percieved argument."

Glad we cleared that up.

bustercherry

hurleronditch wrote: »

But you can?

It isn’t perfect, but handicaps aren’t perfect as they are under CONGU. Is a guy who plays singles 3 times a week and always returns his card operating off a level playing field with a guy who plays lots of casual and team comps and sandbags his 4 qualifying rounds, so he can pitch up for the captains ready to go? Nope.

It feels unusual, but everyone will have a choice. Do I pitch up and play the tips off 15, or do I play off the yellows with 11? Some weeks the lads off the tips might have an advantage depending on conditions and wind, but some weeks it’ll suit to go out the front.

Once things are held consistent for the majors (or at least for the overall prizes) it should be good for club golf and very interesting

This post is waffle.

prawnsambo wrote: »

So what I posted wasn't "just waffle from someone trying to win a percieved argument."

Glad we cleared that up.

Where did I refer to your post? Relax ffs.

willabur

I think I am in a funny position. I have a handicap of 12 but my handicap calculation according to the new WHS for my home course would be 9. This is because I've far more matchplay golf this year than stroke play so my good rounds are not qualifying. When I do get the rare chance to play in strokes I feel like I have a good chance of winning - e.g. I feel I played poorly in a comp on saturday but came within 4 shots of first place, not enough for a cut so I am in the same position. Its not cheating, just circumstance

prawnsambo

bustercherry wrote: »

Where did I refer to your post? Relax ffs.

Right here. It's only a few posts ago.

prawnsambo wrote:

Well it will do a better job. A lookback over twenty rounds will pick up all those 'excellent' rounds at the Captain's Prize and adjust their handicap accordingly. Up to three years if there aren't sufficient in the current year.

bustercherry wrote: »

We weren't discussing the merits of the current system over the new one and cheating, what don't you get?

This is just waffle from someone trying to win a percieved argument.

And as for relaxing, you're attacking people's posts as 'waffle' and swearing at me. What's that about?

bustercherry

prawnsambo wrote: »

Right here. It's only a few posts ago.




And as for relaxing, you're attacking people's posts as 'waffle' and swearing at me. What's that about?

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

xgronkjabv6pcl

Is there a directory of slope ratings published for Ireland?