New Worldwide Handicap System

prawnsambo

Adriel Uneven Backpack wrote: »

Is there a directory of slope ratings published for Ireland?

Not that I can find. Others have looked too. The (very new) Golf Ireland website might have them in the future though.

I assume you know about the USGA database that has all the countries in the World? You can limit your search there to courses in Ireland, but have to put at least three letters in the course name box.

blue note

prawnsambo wrote: »

Not that I can find. Others have looked too. The (very new) Golf Ireland website might have them in the future though.

I assume you know about the USGA database that has all the countries in the World? You can limit your search there to courses in Ireland, but have to put at least three letters in the course name box.

It works for me by just selecting Country and county.

blue note

bustercherry wrote: »

Agreed.

In the last 10 years of captains prizes in 2 different clubs, I've only seen this once (member month prior captains and clearly allocated the wrong handicap). The people "who clearly" manage their handicaps never feature as it's not that easy to put 2 competitive round of golf together in a large field.

Unfortunately it does happen. I know members in a club where a threeball that play together every week have all won the captains prize in the few years prior. The club had received a complaint about one of the threeball from another local club where he was playing in their open each week. If he wasn't going to be near the prizes he was sandbagging every time. He was playing all the local opens, so 3-4 qualifying comps per week. If he had a good round and got cut .8 from beating his handicap by 4 shots, he'd have the shot back in a fortnight. So he was consistently maintaining a handicap higher than he should have. If captains was coming up he could have 20 point 1s back in a row.

He's gone from the club now, I think the members became quite hostile to him. I was in front of him one day and on the 17th his son hit onto the green when we were on it. Not walking off or anything, still finishing putting out. It was the complete other side of the green, but completely needless. I felt sorry for the son, I'm sure he hit on his father's insistence. It was the type of guy the father is.

But it's the only case of that type of thing that I actually know about. I've seen guys mine their handicap, especially to qualify for club teams. But he's the only guy I know of who would so actively get his shots back.

DuckSlice

I know plenty low players that have been consistently poor the last year and playing lots so that their last 20 rounds will push them up from being 4-6 HC's up to god knows what.

bustercherry

blue note wrote: »

Unfortunately it does happen. I know members in a club where a threeball that play together every week have all won the captains prize in the few years prior. The club had received a complaint about one of the threeball from another local club where he was playing in their open each week. If he wasn't going to be near the prizes he was sandbagging every time. He was playing all the local opens, so 3-4 qualifying comps per week. If he had a good round and got cut .8 from beating his handicap by 4 shots, he'd have the shot back in a fortnight. So he was consistently maintaining a handicap higher than he should have. If captains was coming up he could have 20 point 1s back in a row.

He's gone from the club now, I think the members became quite hostile to him. I was in front of him one day and on the 17th his son hit onto the green when we were on it. Not walking off or anything, still finishing putting out. It was the complete other side of the green, but completely needless. I felt sorry for the son, I'm sure he hit on his father's insistence. It was the type of guy the father is.

But it's the only case of that type of thing that I actually know about. I've seen guys mine their handicap, especially to qualify for club teams. But he's the only guy I know of who would so actively get his shots back.

I'm not disputing that he was minding the handicap but I got cut .4 6 comps ago and put it all back on with 8 days. It's not that unheard of if you playing a lot of golf and pretty standard for me

GreeBo

blue note wrote: »

A problem the club I grew up in has is that it's too long from the blues for heaps of the members. A problem shared with clubs around the country no doubt. The result is they barely play comps from them and a lot of the members won't play in them because they don't find them enjoyable.

This new system offers a solution for this. Sadly I can't imagine it will be used. It also offers the choice of having men and women compete together. To me this sounds brilliant. If I was a lady I'd be enraged that I'm never allowed out on Sunday mornings. Golf is a perfect game to play together, but I don't see it being used.

We always allow people play stableford from the whites if they want, bit of a stigma at the start but now lots do it, makes like much more enjoyable for them.

Ladies shouldnt need to play in a mens comp just go get out on a Sunday!

xgronkjabv6pcl

prawnsambo wrote: »

Not that I can find. Others have looked too. The (very new) Golf Ireland website might have them in the future though.

I assume you know about the USGA database that has all the countries in the World? You can limit your search there to courses in Ireland, but have to put at least three letters in the course name box.

That explains why I can shoot 43 points away from home but struggle in the low 30s at home. Small confidence booster.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Fully agree. Too few clubs combine opens for both men and women. I fully understand that timesheet pressure doesn't make this possible in many clubs, but I've competed in opens around the country where numbers are very low and only for men. If the system of handicapping is supposed to level the playing field, there really is no reason not to do this.

It only really levels the playing field in stableford, in strokes its a bit of a mess when a hole has a different par for men than women. That means the winner is the person who beats CSS by the most, not necessarily someone with the lowest number of nett strokes.

GreeBo

blue note wrote: »

But sure if there's time sheet pressure, how is it a fair solution to have the comp as men only every Sunday? Sure the timesheet is under less pressure, but only because a significant amount of members (who are generally paying the same membership fee) are no owed to play. If you said only people with surnames starting in letters A to S could play in the Sunday morning comps you'd be laughed at. But excluding women is fine and to me makes just as much sense.

Are men allowed play on a Tuesday or whatever is the ladies day?

We have Tuesday for Ladies, Wednesday for men and then all other days are based on membership category only. (Sat are full member only for example)
However we have distinct competitions for men and women

Seems to be the fairest way IMO.

GreeBo

hurleronditch wrote: »

I don’t understand why at the very least clubs don’t run two comps together. Whatever about the varying tee discussion, why couldn’t a Sunday morning comp be a men’s comp off the blues and a ladies comp off reds. Obviously if there’s 100 men playing and 20 women manage prizes accordingly but in this day and age there’s no excuse for not having inclusive golf for everyone.

Also once we move to the new handicap system, ladies and men should be able to play together in the same comp, even if clubs don’t go so far as to allow varied tees in the same comp, you could easily have a mixed singles comp off the yellow or forward tees, as I imagine not all ladies would be keen to play off whites or blues

Prize funds should be based on number of entries per comp. If you only have 5 ladies then 5 prizes dont make sense for example.

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

It only really levels the playing field in stableford, in strokes its a bit of a mess when a hole has a different par for men than women. That means the winner is the person who beats CSS by the most, not necessarily someone with the lowest number of nett strokes.

CSS only affects handicap, not the score. Unless you're talking about SSS?

GreeBo

bustercherry wrote: »

Agreed.

In the last 10 years of captains prizes in 2 different clubs, I've only seen this once (member month prior captains and clearly allocated the wrong handicap). The people "who clearly" manage their handicaps never feature as it's not that easy to put 2 competitive round of golf together in a large field.

The handicap managers typically hoover up the prizes in the team/fourballs, I don't think they manage handicaps to win the majors.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

CSS only affects handicap, not the score. Unless you're talking about SSS?

Same difference really, is the winner the one who takes fewer nett strokes or the one who beats css/sss by the most?

If its the same tees then above is always the same person, if the par for each tee is different then its not.

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

Same difference really, is the winner the one who takes fewer nett strokes or the one who beats css/sss by the most?

If its the same tees then above is always the same person, if the par for each tee is different then its not.

Well it's kind of important. CSS is not relevant to scoring at all and SSS is only relevant if it's different from par for the course on the tees played. If SSS is less than par, you can lose shots and vice versa if it's more than par.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well it's kind of important. CSS is not relevant to scoring at all and SSS is only relevant if it's different from par for the course on the tees played. If SSS is less than par, you can lose shots and vice versa if it's more than par.

Indeed, but that makes no difference to the point I am making about mixed tees in the same competition...


Who wins the below competition?

Person A playing Par 74, SSS 74 has 36 points and shoots 74 nett
Person B playing par 71, SSS 72 has 34 points and shoots 73 nett

Lets say CSS was 74, so Person B gets cut while Person A does not.

How do you fairly award a single 1st prize in this scenario?

A month out and not a word from our club in it. Most members haven't a clue what's involved.

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

Indeed, but that makes no difference to the point I am making about mixed tees in the same competition...


Who wins the below competition?

Person A playing Par 74, SSS 74 has 36 points and shoots 74 nett
Person B playing par 71, SSS 72 has 34 points and shoots 73 nett

Lets say CSS was 74, so Person B gets cut while Person A does not.

How do you fairly award a single 1st prize in this scenario?

You don't really. I (wrongly) assumed that the overall par was the same where tees might have differed. Not under the current system anyway. Not sure even WHS can resolve that one.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

A month out and not a word from our club in it. Most members haven't a clue what's involved.

They should have their rating by now. Golf Ireland have been sending literature and updates out for the last couple of weeks.

Rikand

Deleted User wrote: »

A month out and not a word from our club in it. Most members haven't a clue what's involved.

Our fella told us there's a new handicap system coming...... more to follow in due course.

hurleronditch

GreeBo wrote: »

Indeed, but that makes no difference to the point I am making about mixed tees in the same competition...


Who wins the below competition?

Person A playing Par 74, SSS 74 has 36 points and shoots 74 nett
Person B playing par 71, SSS 72 has 34 points and shoots 73 nett

Lets say CSS was 74, so Person B gets cut while Person A does not.

How do you fairly award a single 1st prize in this scenario?

I’m pro the multi tee approach, but I hadn’t thought about courses where there are variations in Par (I’ve rarely seen this and it’s usually a different par for the ladies tees only).

For stroke play it’s a bit easier, as nett is nett, and par is only a theoretical construct for each hole, but for stableford you’d need to have the same par. No matter what the scenario is player B wins the stroke play, and assuming you reduce par to 71 for player A, player B wins under stableford as well.

prawnsambo

hurleronditch wrote: »

I’m pro the multi tee approach, but I hadn’t thought about courses where there are variations in Par (I’ve rarely seen this and it’s usually a different par for the ladies tees only).

For stroke play it’s a bit easier, as nett is nett, and par is only a theoretical construct for each hole, but for stableford you’d need to have the same par. No matter what the scenario is player B wins the stroke play, and assuming you reduce par to 71 for player A, player B wins under stableford as well.

There's also the argument that the course with the higher par is easier to score on based on the assumption that it's higher because it has more par 5 holes. Those holes would probably be long par 4s from the forward tees and probably harder to score on. So the guys on the back tees have a better chance of scoring a three pointer than the guys on the forward ones getting a two pointer.

GreeBo

hurleronditch wrote: »

I’m pro the multi tee approach, but I hadn’t thought about courses where there are variations in Par (I’ve rarely seen this and it’s usually a different par for the ladies tees only).

For stroke play it’s a bit easier, as nett is nett, and par is only a theoretical construct for each hole, but for stableford you’d need to have the same par. No matter what the scenario is player B wins the stroke play, and assuming you reduce par to 71 for player A, player B wins under stableford as well.

I think strokeplay is much harder, nett is nett, but not if you are playing effectively different holes!
Otherwise you could say that nett 70 in Corbalis beats the nett 71 in Bethpage Black....which would make no sense!

Stableford is easier as points are calculated against *your* nett par of each hole.

I often play singles mixed matches and we always play stableford as its the only fair way to do it.


I dont think you'd get too many ladies playing if you decided they had to shoot 3 under to have 36 points!

GreeBo

Deleted User wrote: »

A month out and not a word from our club in it. Most members haven't a clue what's involved.

To be fair, whats involved for 99% of members?
You sign in and the computer tells you your handicap...same as usual.

DuckSlice

GreeBo wrote: »

To be fair, whats involved for 99% of members?
You sign in and the computer tells you your handicap...same as usual.

Id agree, id say most of the members at the moment don't know how the current system works. they know they get cut if they play well and they get .1 if they don't.

GreeBo

etxp wrote: »

Id agree, id say most of the members at the moment don't know how the current system works. they know they get cut if they play well and they get .1 if they don't.

The real benefit of the WHS is that it works more like people expect it to work, unlike CONGU.

People are convinced that their CONGU handicap is how they should play on average, so they think some bastard of a handicap sec is being unfair when they cut them as now they hardly ever shoot 36 points and have to play really well to do it.
They fail to understand that this is exactly how its supposed to work.
I'm sure there will be other issues with WHS, but removing this one is a definite plus for me.

HighLine

prawnsambo wrote: »

They should have their rating by now. Golf Ireland have been sending literature and updates out for the last couple of weeks.

Our handicap sec. as of last week had still not received any information on our rating. All very last minute it would seem.

GreeBo

The ESR under WHS will be an interesting one to watch, I believe it only kicks in if you beat your handicap by 7?
Also its taken on a score by score basis, no longer needs multiple scores > x within Y timeframe.

Seve OB

GreeBo wrote: »

Are men allowed play on a Tuesday or whatever is the ladies day?

We have Tuesday for Ladies, Wednesday for men and then all other days are based on handicap category only. (Sat are full member only for example)
However we have distinct competitions for men and women

Seems to be the fairest way IMO.

typo? maybe you meant to say membership?

Seve OB

GreeBo wrote: »

The ESR under WHS will be an interesting one to watch, I believe it only kicks in if you beat your handicap by 7?
Also its taken on a score by score basis, no longer needs multiple scores > x within Y timeframe.

thought i read 5

GreeBo

Seve OB wrote: »

thought i read 5

CONGU site states the below rules, but perhaps GUI have a local version?

7.0 – 9.9 = -1.0
10.0 or more = -2.0