New Worldwide Handicap System

macslash

prawnsambo wrote: »

So we now move on to how sh1t your year was.

Don't worry, can't be as sh1t as mine. My golf never recovered from the last lockdown. couldn't hit a drive into the right county.

In my defence I took up the sport in late May and I always felt the handicap I got was a bit on the low side!

Rikand

Nobodies calculations in those excel sheets seem to be allowing for the 95% part. Is the 95% part gone now again ?

gypsy79

Rikand wrote: »

Nobodies calculations in those excel sheets seem to be allowing for the 95% part. Is the 95% part gone now again ?

It comes after your handicap index has been calculated. The sheets are just doing handicap index

So if your handicap index is 20 and playing a course with slope of 130

then your playing handicap would be:

0.95 * (130/113) * 20 = 21.85 (22)

prawnsambo

Rikand wrote: »

Nobodies calculations in those excel sheets seem to be allowing for the 95% part. Is the 95% part gone now again ?

Nah. That depends on what format you're playing. Stroke and Stableford are 95%, but there are also different percentages for matchplay etc.

gary29428

I don't have many scores in and some are RSA scores in my golfnet, are these taken into account in the calculation or is it just QSA & QSH scores....I think you can get cut for RSA and RSH scores so they probably should be.

prawnsambo

gary29428 wrote: »

I don't have many scores in and some are RSA scores in my golfnet, are these taken into account in the calculation or is it just QSA & QSH scores....I think you can get cut for RSA and RSH scores so they probably should be.

Yeah, they're reduction only scores. Kind of a half way house between non-qualifying and qualifying.

GreeBo

macslash wrote: »

Using that calculator above, I'm set to gain 5 shots? It can't be right can it?

That would make you a severe TIDNAB!

T453

Anybody know if non-qualifying scores count from before in the new handicap system

prawnsambo

T453 wrote: »

Anybody know if non-qualifying scores count from before in the new handicap system

No.

PabloAndRoy

GreeBo wrote: »

That would make you a severe TIDNAB!

It seems that macslash just started in May this year and his allotted h/c was a bit harsh.

I think this particular scenario is one that WHS will end.

I play with a guy who was allotted an 18 and he is more like 25/26. Therefore he is currently not competitive and its not an incentive to compete and improve. WHS will place him with the correct HI and he can compete in comps with a chance of getting placed.

prawnsambo

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

It seems that macslash just started in May this year and his allotted h/c was a bit harsh.

I think this particular scenario is one that WHS will end.

I play with a guy who was allotted an 18 and he is more like 25/26. Therefore he is currently not competitive and its not an incentive to compete and improve. WHS will place him with the correct HI and he can compete in comps with a chance of getting placed.

Something else I've noticed with guys who get to low an initial allocation is that they tend to just 'drop the head' as they get into a round and their scores only get worse as a result.

DuckSlice

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

It seems that macslash just started in May this year and his allotted h/c was a bit harsh.

I think this particular scenario is one that WHS will end.

I play with a guy who was allotted an 18 and he is more like 25/26. Therefore he is currently not competitive and its not an incentive to compete and improve. WHS will place him with the correct HI and he can compete in comps with a chance of getting placed.

I'm hoping it will for a few lads I know. They play off anything from 18-23, they rarely score better than 25/30 points. Hopefully the new system will sort these lads out.

PabloAndRoy

etxp wrote: »

I'm hoping it will for a few lads I know. They play off anything from 18-23, they rarely score better than 25/30 points. Hopefully the new system will sort these lads out.

It definitely will if they have been scoring under 30 points.

And with the CONGU increasing h/c by 1 limit per year, it could take several years to find your spot. It's possible that some would just give up before that happens. With WHS, the HI actually reflects how you have been playing.

I think once it is bedded in most people will agree that it is a better reflection of our abilities.

DuckSlice

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

It definitely will if they have been scoring under 30 points.

And with the CONGU increasing h/c by 1 limit per year, it could take several years to find your spot. It's possible that some would just give up before that happens. With WHS, the HI actually reflects how you have been playing.

I think once it is bedded in most people will agree that it is a better reflection of our abilities.

Yea one of them has given up on competitions because he is never going to feature. Hopefully the new handicap will give him a new lease of life for competition golf.

Russman

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

It definitely will if they have been scoring under 30 points.

And with the CONGU increasing h/c by 1 limit per year, it could take several years to find your spot. It's possible that some would just give up before that happens. With WHS, the HI actually reflects how you have been playing.

I think once it is bedded in most people will agree that it is a better reflection of our abilities.

Yeah I think this is probably true. The CONGU system in a way reflects how good you used to be, and then says its your potential.
WHS will be far more current.
Although changing mindset will be the biggest issue. Someone who used to be a really good player, now a few years older, but the one shot per year limit in CONGU prevented them going out too far, might find WHS throws up a handicap that will cause a lot of gasps in the bar !:)

Seve OB

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

It definitely will if they have been scoring under 30 points.

And with the CONGU increasing h/c by 1 limit per year, it could take several years to find your spot. It's possible that some would just give up before that happens. With WHS, the HI actually reflects how you have been playing.

I think once it is bedded in most people will agree that it is a better reflection of our abilities.

i fear that I'm in for a rollercoaster ride!
22 yesterday
haven't broken 30 in weeks, and probably only a couple of times in the last 2 months, and barley at that, think i had a 31 and a 32.
i hope I'm not in for a big hike because I'm well able to play golf close enough to my handicap
just going through a bad patch... which unfortunately comes at a time when I'm hardly working so playing lots of golf..... and I mean lots

DuckSlice

Seve OB wrote: »

i fear that I'm in for a rollercoaster ride!
22 yesterday
haven't broken 30 in weeks, and probably only a couple of times in the last 2 months, and barley at that, think i had a 31 and a 32.
i hope I'm not in for a big hike because I'm well able to play golf close enough to my handicap
just going through a bad patch... which unfortunately comes at a time when I'm hardly working so playing lots of golf..... and I mean lots

do you have 20 rounds of bad golf played though?

PabloAndRoy

The one thing I worry about the WHS is the possibility for bandits to manipulate it.

The CONGU +1 limit stopped anyone going out too far on purpose.

With WHS, you can effectively go out 5 (hard limit).

Given that we can put in General Play cards and it can include 9 holes, I could play my most recent 20 rounds over a few weeks and manipulate my HI to be 5 more than it should be. This would effectively give me 5 strokes or 5 points in a target competition that I want to win.

Am I missing something?

prawnsambo

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

The one thing I worry about the WHS is the possibility for bandits to manipulate it.

The CONGU +1 limit stopped anyone going out too far on purpose.

With WHS, you can effectively go out 5 (hard limit).

Given that we can put in General Play cards and it can include 9 holes, I could play my most recent 20 rounds over a few weeks and manipulate my HI to be 5 more than it should be. This would effectively give me 5 strokes or 5 points in a target competition that I want to win.

Am I missing something?

You could. But that's a lot of golf and you have to have a marker with you (even though marking the card doesn't actually happen in the usual way) and declare your round before you start. If somebody did that, it would be very unusual and pretty obvious too.

DuckSlice

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

The one thing I worry about the WHS is the possibility for bandits to manipulate it.

The CONGU +1 limit stopped anyone going out too far on purpose.

With WHS, you can effectively go out 5 (hard limit).

Given that we can put in General Play cards and it can include 9 holes, I could play my most recent 20 rounds over a few weeks and manipulate my HI to be 5 more than it should be. This would effectively give me 5 strokes or 5 points in a target competition that I want to win.

Am I missing something?

I think they take into account your lowest round for a period of time outside the 20 rounds. and you can only go out by 3 if you are at a certain level and 5 for higher handicaps? maybe I misread it.

PabloAndRoy

etxp wrote: »

I think they take into account your lowest round for a period of time outside the 20 rounds. and you can only go out by 3 if you are at a certain level and 5 for higher handicaps? maybe I misread it.

3 is a "soft cap", 5 is the "hard cap". It's explained quite well here:

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/world-handicap-system-stops-cheats/

PabloAndRoy

prawnsambo wrote: »

You could. But that's a lot of golf and you have to have a marker with you (even though marking the card doesn't actually happen in the usual way) and declare your round before you start. If somebody did that, it would be very unusual and pretty obvious too.

So is it down to the club to determine how they manage the General Play cards? Say limit the number per month, or not use the same marker more than once over a given period?

Just to be clear, I have no interest in manipulating myself, jusy playing devil's advocate.

copacetic

Will be interesting, I’ve played with a couple of scratch players, who expect to go out to +3 or more, once their average rounds in their last 20 are gone and they are left with their best 8. Whereas I’ve played with a couple of single figure players who will go out to the hard limit straight away. I expect to go out from 11 to 16 straight away, which will be a bit high, have had a couple of good rounds in last month, but they were non qualifying due to how wet it’s been. I’d expected to be very competitive off 16, and hopefully to come down pretty quickly once get to play qualifying comps again. However I’d also expect winning stableford scores to go up 3 to 4 shots, a lot more people will be playing to their handicaps more often. Especially those like myself who are the more ‘erratic’ but longish off the tee.

Seve OB

etxp wrote: »

do you have 20 rounds of bad golf played though?

not far off it actually
think i'm on 9 .1's atm in a row. two cuts before that, 1 ESR, and the 10 rounds before those probably had no more than 4 scores in the buffer

GreeBo

It's very difficult for any handicap system to distinguish between someone who can't play to their handicap Vs one who isn't playing to it.
Like someone not playing to it but still having pars and birdies is very different to someone who just cannot hit the ball well enough.

Congu basically rated you on your good shots

prawnsambo

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

So is it down to the club to determine how they manage the General Play cards? Say limit the number per month, or not use the same marker more than once over a given period?

Just to be clear, I have no interest in manipulating myself, jusy playing devil's advocate.

Well it's always been down to clubs to police handicap manipulation. I think WHS will just make it easier to spot anomalies like the one suggested. Somebody lashing in loads of supplementary scores would be a cause for question at the very least. Although my club has been encouraging members to do this where they haven't enough scores to get an accurate WHS handicap index, somebody who's playing regularly in competitions wouldn't have this excuse.

blue note

GreeBo wrote: »

It's very difficult for any handicap system to distinguish between someone who can't play to their handicap Vs one who isn't playing to it.
Like someone not playing to it but still having pars and birdies is very different to someone who just cannot hit the ball well enough.

Congu basically rated you on your good shots

I wonder how different the guy having pars and birdies but coming in with scores of +22 is from someone punching the ball up the fairways to get to the same score.

If someone is having a few scratches every round, that's not something that is easily fixed. There's probably swing problems there that make affect their control. They might get away with it for the front 9 and have birdies and pars, but then scratch a couple of holes on the back which will offset them. If they sort out their problems they will shoot better scores and their handicap will come down. Similarly if the guy punching the ball up the fairway can work on his rotation and add distance, he can also start putting in better scores.

The two types of golfer are indeed different, but I don't think a handicap system needs to distinguish between them.

Russman

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

So is it down to the club to determine how they manage the General Play cards? Say limit the number per month, or not use the same marker more than once over a given period?

Just to be clear, I have no interest in manipulating myself, jusy playing devil's advocate.

Could you be bothered though, in reality ? Not you specifically, but in general. Its an awful lot of effort and time for a few shots back. You could then stand up on the first tee in the Captains and hit two out of bounds and all your effort is for nothing. You'd want to be a pretty serious bandit IMO. Again, not you specifically !

finglashoop

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well it's always been down to clubs to police handicap manipulation. I think WHS will just make it easier to spot anomalies like the one suggested. Somebody lashing in loads of supplementary scores would be a cause for question at the very least. Although my club has been encouraging members to do this where they haven't enough scores to get an accurate WHS handicap index, somebody who's playing regularly in competitions wouldn't have this excuse.

Id play two comps a week and will also probbaly put in a couple of supplementary scores as well, unless club puts on more midweek comps.

Im looking forward to the supplementary aspect so every round counts even if its only 9. Although ill be using it to get handicap down rather than up

Russman

blue note wrote: »

I wonder how different the guy having pars and birdies but coming in with scores of +22 is from someone punching the ball up the fairways to get to the same score.

If someone is having a few scratches every round, that's not something that is easily fixed. There's probably swing problems there that make affect their control. They might get away with it for the front 9 and have birdies and pars, but then scratch a couple of holes on the back which will offset them. If they sort out their problems they will shoot better scores and their handicap will come down. Similarly if the guy punching the ball up the fairway can work on his rotation and add distance, he can also start putting in better scores.

The two types of golfer are indeed different, but I don't think a handicap system needs to distinguish between them.

That's been me exactly this year :eek: ! Missed the buffer by 1 shot about 8 times in a row, yet was averaging having to chip out sideways from trees 6 times per round. Can't tell you the number of times I've turned with 20+ points but then you've to hit it straight on our back nine ! If I could find a way onto the short grass (or even just "grass" !) I'd be several shots lower. As it is, I'm looking at going from 8.7 out to 10.4 under the WHS and I (perhaps misguidedly) feel that next season I'll shoot some mad scores if I straighten out the tees shots even a little bit.