New Worldwide Handicap System

GolfNut33

dan_ep82 wrote: »

I wonder is the plan still to go ahead with this or not.

Depending on when competitions are back on it could be your next competition is under the WHS

I'd say they might hold off for another year.

spacecoyote

Pretty sure there was a mail from the GUI recently saying that the change has been suspended indefinitely.

prawnsambo

spacecoyote wrote: »

Pretty sure there was a mail from the GUI recently saying that the change has been suspended indefinitely.

The only one I've seen with regard to the WHS was where they said that all WHS meetings scheduled for before 30th April were postponed. Nothing since that I can find.

spacecoyote

prawnsambo wrote: »

The only one I've seen with regard to the WHS was where they said that all WHS meetings scheduled for before 30th April were postponed. Nothing since that I can find.

Sorry, yes, I misread the mail from my club. They said that all introductory seminars for the GUI have been indefinitely suspended

paulos53

Not sure if they have been posted already but here are the slides from those handicap seminars

blackbox

Slide 13 (authorised formats of play) has me baffled.

Ther are green ticks only beside 18 hole stroke and stableford, but later on it seems 9-hole cards are permitted.

Rikand

blackbox wrote: »

Slide 13 (authorised formats of play) has me baffled.

Ther are green ticks only beside 18 hole stroke and stableford, but later on it seems 9-hole cards are permitted.

I think what it is saying is that the standard across all associations is that those 2 formats are acceptable for handicapping (rule 2.1)

But an association can nominate other formats of play as eligible for handicapping purposes if they wish, e.g. 9 holes (rule 2.2)

mike12

Have any courses published their rating and slopes yet?
If yes can we get a list going.

prawnsambo

mike12 wrote: »

Have any courses published their rating and slopes yet?
If yes can we get a list going.

There is a list of sorts on this thread (I think). There was another thread as well, but it may have been merged with this one. So if it's not here, it'll be in the other thread.

gypsy79

There are a few

But a running list would be a good idea if the more technical can set it up

prawnsambo

Here's the thread, it was never merged with this one. A couple of posts below listing some of the courses with published ratings.

prawnsambo wrote: »

So here are some I've collected so far:

Castlewarden (Blue/White/Yellow) = 119 / 117 / 114
Enniscrone (Blue/White/Yellow/Green) - 133 / 131 / 123 / 111
Kinsale (Blue/White) - 128 / 125
Dromoland Castle (Blue/White/Yellow) - 126 / 126 / 124
Beaufort (Blue/White/Yellow) - 137 / 133 / 129
Dooks (Blue/White/Yellow) - 122 / 121 / 117
Tulfarris (Blue/White/Green) - 129 / 125 / 122
Tipperary (Blue/White/Yellow) - 129 / 127 / 124
Mount Juliet (Blue/White) - 148 / 136
Old Head (Black/Blue/White/Yellow) - 142 / 139 / 136 / 129
Castlemartyr (Blue/White/Red) - 133 / 126 / 131

Some of these came from posters above, some from a quick Google search and some from scorecards from courses I've played lately.

charlieIRL wrote: »

I have a card here from the Island in Donabate and the slope ratings are:
White 130
Green 129
Yellow 124
Red 121

GreeBo

gypsy79 wrote: »

There are a few

But a running list would be a good idea if the more technical can set it up

You can get them all from most of the GPS sites

e.g.
https://courses.swingbyswing.com/courses/Ireland/Dublin/Dublin/Edmondstown/43050

a lot of them seem to be 113, which is the average but could also be being used as a default.
however some (such as portmarnock links) are deffo up to date.

dan_ep82

Headfort showing as 113. It's plays a good few shots harder.

prawnsambo

dan_ep82 wrote: »

Headfort showing as 113. It's plays a good few shots harder.

Yeah, 113 is just the same as 1.0, neutral slope. It's in there as a default as Greebo says.

mighty magpie

The below can be found on USGA for my course. It has been shared around whatsapp today so i assume it is to do with the new handicapping system.

Does it mean they rank our back 9 harder than front?
What do the gender figures mean?
If one courses bogey rating is higher than another, does that mean it is more difficult?

White M
M
Slope - 71
Front - 70.9
Back - 93.4
Bogey rating - 121
Gender 36.4 / 127
34.5 / 115

gypsy79

mighty magpie wrote: »

The below can be found on USGA for my course. It has been shared around whatsapp today so i assume it is to do with the new handicapping system.

Does it mean they rank our back 9 harder than front?
What do the gender figures mean?
If one courses bogey rating is higher than another, does that mean it is more difficult?

White M
M
Slope - 71
Front - 70.9
Back - 93.4
Bogey rating - 121
Gender 36.4 / 127
34.5 / 115

Those numbers look incorrect to me

Golfgraffix

GreeBo wrote: »

You can get them all from most of the GPS sites

e.g.
https://courses.swingbyswing.com/courses/Ireland/Dublin/Dublin/Edmondstown/43050

however some (such as portmarnock links) are deffo up to date.

We’ve had 122 on our card for years, I’d expect it to be somewhat harder, I seen the Gui PowerPoint and they have Westport in as the training sample at 130 something, is the course that hard ????

Golf is my Game

Golfgraffix wrote: »

We’ve had 122 on our card for years, I’d expect it to be somewhat harder, I seen the Gui PowerPoint and they have Westport in as the training sample at 130 something, is the course that hard ????

Off the back sticks it's long fair enough and some holes a lot of non single figure lads just won't get there in two digs. But you can spray it all over the shop and get away with it if your long to make the recover. 130 sounds about right really.

gypsy79

Golf is my Game wrote: »

Off the back sticks it's long fair enough and some holes a lot of non single figure lads just won't get there in two digs. But you can spray it all over the shop and get away with it if your long to make the recover. 130 sounds about right really.

Given that the measure is the difficulty of the course for a "par" golfer versus a "bogie" golfer then I think that makes sense

Especially considering the definition of a par and bogie golfer involves distance off the tee

Russman

Just found my own course on the USGA site, showing as Course 70.4, Bogey 93.2 & Slope 123. I've no real idea yet what that means TBH !

Looks like that's the afternoon sorted so !! :D

mighty magpie

gypsy79 wrote: »

Those numbers look incorrect to me

How so? I've no idea what's going on here and it seems many others in same boat

Seve OB

Castleknock is here

https://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=22933

Course rating 18 and slope also 18. I don’t think they are correct are they?
Bogey rating differs for each tee with blues being 135. No idea If this means it is a hard or easy course.

Why do they make this stuff so complicated, I’m sure there could be a much simpler way of doing this.

prawnsambo

I don't know if these are correct. Looked up a couple I have cards for and they don't correlate. Not miles out, but I don't think they're based on recent ratings. Would be surprised if USGA have these before the GUI.

dan_ep82

prawnsambo wrote: »

I don't know if these are correct. Looked up a couple I have cards for and they don't correlate. Not miles out, but I don't think they're based on recent ratings. Would be surprised if USGA have these before the GUI.

They do tend to match up in difficulty ( harder courses are higher rating etc) but the extra shots seem excessive.

Using the USGA course handicap calculator I would play off 19 in Headfort New and 18 in Headfort Old with a real handicap of 16.2. Both from comp tees

prawnsambo

dan_ep82 wrote: »

They do tend to match up in difficulty ( harder courses are higher rating etc) but the extra shots seem excessive.

Using the USGA course handicap calculator I would play off 19 in Headfort New and 18 in Headfort Old with a real handicap of 16.2. Both from comp tees

Just looked up Macreddin black tees (one of the hardest around) and the slope rating is 135. The same as Castleknock off the blue tees? Doesn't make sense to me.

paulos53

1 thing to remember is that slope rating does not indicate course difficulty.


Course rating relative to par is a better indicator

prawnsambo

paulos53 wrote: »

1 thing to remember is that slope rating does not indicate course difficulty.

Course rating relative to par is a better indicator

Slope rating is what your handicap will be based on. HI*SR/113. So the higher the slope rating, the higher your course handicap will be. Which is a direct correlation to course difficulty.

slingerz

prawnsambo wrote: »

Slope rating is what your handicap will be based on. HI*SR/113. So the higher the slope rating, the higher your course handicap will be. Which is a direct correlation to course difficulty.

Is that the correct calc? I played a course rated 145 today according to the scorecard and if I do that calc it takes my handicap from 9 to 12?

dan_ep82

dan_ep82 wrote: »

They do tend to match up in difficulty ( harder courses are higher rating etc) but the extra shots seem excessive.

Using the USGA course handicap calculator I would play off 19 in Headfort New and 18 in Headfort Old with a real handicap of 16.2. Both from comp tees

They may be updating this, some of the info has changed which means I would play of 21 in the New :eek:

Golf is my Game

dan_ep82 wrote: »

They may be updating this, some of the info has changed which means I would play of 21 in the New :eek:

Thats really only an :eek: because you are thinking of the 21 in old money. Its comparing apples and oranges and people just dont have a feel for the WGS yet so keep thinking of it in the system they know and rember that the slope rating applies to everyone. Its just a number and it whats it relative to all the other numbers in the competition that matters not the value itself.

dan_ep82

Golf is my Game wrote: »

Thats really only an :eek: because you are thinking of the 21 in old money. Its comparing apples and oranges and people just dont have a feel for the WGS yet so keep thinking of it in the system they know and rember that the slope rating applies to everyone. Its just a number and it whats it relative to all the other numbers in the competition that matters not the value itself.

I mainly play comps to get a reduction in my handicap, to push myself under a bit of pressure. Winning a comp is great but it's far from what I play golf for.



Whats a standard course if Headfort new is 5 shots harder?



My previous club, Ardee ,I would consider very scoreable has max CSS's of 38 and I get 3 shots there under the new system.

CalamariFritti

mighty magpie wrote: »

How so? I've no idea what's going on here and it seems many others in same boat

This would make much more sense.

Par - 71
Course Rating - 70.9
Bogey Rating - 93.4
Slope - 121

Your course is a par 71. By a scratch golfer it is being played a fraction under its par. But for a bogey golfer it is tougher (93.4). Hence the higher than neutral slope of 113.

The formula is:

Slope = (Bogey Rating - Course Rating) * 5.381

(5.381 is for men, its 4.24 or so for women)

slingerz

It would be great if the GUI published guidance on how handicaps and competitions would work here going forward.

Seve OB

I just went on to the WHS site there. One would imagine there would be a very clear and obvious link as to how to calculate a handicap.

Here is a link you might find interesting, it’s the UAE who have adopted the WHS a few months ago now.

https://egfgolf.com/handicap/

Golf is my Game

dan_ep82 wrote: »

I mainly play comps to get a reduction in my handicap, to push myself under a bit of pressure. Winning a comp is great but it's far from what I play golf for.



Whats a standard course if Headfort new is 5 shots harder?



My previous club, Ardee ,I would consider very scoreable has max CSS's of 38 and I get 3 shots there under the new system.

Played Ardee and would have thought it a right in the middle, 113, course. Not long, no great difficult holes, and a fair few in the front nine you can get away with fairway hopping both left and right. Liked the sweeping left dog leg 16th or 17th into a valley.

CalamariFritti

slingerz wrote: »

It would be great if the GUI published guidance on how handicaps and competitions would work here going forward.

I try to summarise it like I understand it in a nutshell.

As it is today for handicapping purposes every result gets transferred into an adjusted gross score. Adjusted as in no score is higher than net double bogey.

Your adjusted gross score on the day then gets converted into what they call the handicap differential.

Handicap Differential = ( Adjusted Gross - Course Rating ) * 113 / Slope

That is your result on the day for handicapping purposes. You could call it an adjusted over par result.

So now imagine a list of your last 20 results (handicap differentials) from which you take the best 8 and do a simple average of those 8. Thats now your handicap (index).

I have no experience with it but I imagine there are interesting possibilities. You could shoot 38 points and see your handicap actually going up. Cos your 38 points could push a 40 points result out of the last 20 window.

Also I guess sine there are no 0.1 increases or .3 or .2 decreases there really is no need for categories anymore. It's going to be different.

***

What I don't quite understand yet is the following, maybe someone can jump in and fill the gaps.

So now you have your handicap index - your new handicap. Which is not your playing handicap. Depending on the course (slope?) you get extra shots on the day/course. Could be as many as three for higher handicaps I believe.

Don't understand the significance of those when all that matters is an adjusted gross. I guess thats for stableford only? But how do you arrive at an adjusted gross score from such a stableford score based on an adjusted playing handicap?

Plus if you get extra shots based on slope and slope also becomes a factor in the result calculation doesn't slope go into it twice?

One thing is for sure. It may be more accurate but it is certainly a lot more complicated. Lads will be struggling to self apply the correct handicap index from one comp to the next if the system isn't updated yet.

prawnsambo

CalamariFritti wrote: »

What I don't quite understand yet is the following, maybe someone can jump in and fill the gaps.

So now you have your handicap index - your new handicap. Which is not your playing handicap. Depending on the course (slope?) you get extra shots on the day/course. Could be as many as three for higher handicaps I believe.

Don't understand the significance of those when all that matters is an adjusted gross. I guess thats for stableford only? But how do you arrive at an adjusted gross score from such a stableford score based on an adjusted playing handicap?


Plus if you get extra shots based on slope and slope also becomes a factor in the result calculation doesn't slope go into it twice?

Adjusted gross score comes out after you've played a competition and gives you a new handicap index. Slope rating is in twice because you need to 'de-slope' the score in order to calculate the new handicap index.

CalamariFritti wrote: »

One thing is for sure. It may be more accurate but it is certainly a lot more complicated. Lads will be struggling to self apply the correct handicap index from one comp to the next if the system isn't updated yet.

I believe that all this will be done through GolfNet as the primary repository of handicap indices. So whatever is recorded there will be the basis for the next competition you play. All clubs will have tables for players to see what their course handicap will be for that course.

Golfgraffix

prawnsambo wrote: »

I believe that all this will be done through GolfNet as the primary repository of handicap indices. So whatever is recorded there will be the basis for the next competition you play. All clubs will have tables for players to see what their course handicap will be for that course.

My worry will be getting all your data in one place. None of the main information will be accessable through the old formats like Howdidido or Masterscorebaord, the only location for your history will be the new GolfNet.

I can understand the monetary reason for holding all the data but Irish golfers are creatures of habit, it will be a big shock come November.

J

prawnsambo

Golfgraffix wrote: »

My worry will be getting all your data in one place. None of the main information will be accessable through the old formats like Howdidido or Masterscorebaord, the only location for your history will be the new GolfNet.

I can understand the monetary reason for holding all the data but Irish golfers are creatures of habit, it will be a big shock come November.

J

Yeah. And I've seen some strange anomalies on GolfNet as it is. A visitor was DQ from an open because they didn't have the (c) handicap according to GolfNet when our HS looked him up. Visitor provided a screengrab from GolfNet showing that he had. Now maybe he'd done a bit of post-grab digital work, but that would be a very dangerous road to go down.

blue note

I can't wait to see the course difficulty ratings. I expect the majority of people will consider their course much harder than the rating. Or maybe, we'll all look at the ratings off the back tees and consider that the rating of what they are playing. Whereas in reality they're not playing off those tees.

I could be wrong of course and the ratings might come out and people will hardly look at them.

I expect my course (corballis) to be rated as very easy, mainly because it's so short. And I think that it is relatively easy for a lot of people. For me though, it's the very opposite. I can play not great on a parkland and play roughly to my handicap. Or I can play pretty well on my home course and be 10 shots off it.

I'm wondering will I have a huge handicap for opens as a result of this.

prawnsambo

blue note wrote: »

I'm wondering will I have a huge handicap for opens as a result of this.

I wouldn't get too excited about that possibility


Obviously depends on what your handicap is, but the max SR is 155, so if your club is neutral at 113, the multiplier would be 1.37. Which means that if your Handicap Index is 10, your home handicap would be 10 (approx) and your away handicap at a 155 SR course would be 14. At 20 you'd be off 28. But you're looking at a much, much harder course. Think of The European off the back tees level of difficulty.

blue note

prawnsambo wrote: »

I wouldn't get too excited about that possibility


Obviously depends on what your handicap is, but the max SR is 155, so if your club is neutral at 113, the multiplier would be 1.37. Which means that if your Handicap Index is 10, your home handicap would be 10 (approx) and your away handicap at a 155 SR course would be 14. At 20 you'd be off 28. But you're looking at a much, much harder course. Think of The European off the back tees level of difficulty.

Ah huge is an exaggeration. But I wouldn't be shocked if I get two shots back on some courses. And my points on parkland this year have been 38, 36, 33, 28, 19 (9 holes). Whereas I haven't broken 30 points in my last 10 rounds in corballis. All those rounds were off about 14.

So I'm just wondering if a combination of my handicap going up from playing corballis, plus a shot or two from the course ranking will help me greatly on a decent parkland.

Of course I could get a handle on corballis and screw that up.

IAmTitleist

Can see this taking out a lot of my enjoyment for the game to be honest.

There is no better feeling walking off the couse having battled to make buffer and avoid a 0.1 increase.

That doesn't appear to be a likely scenario from next year?!

GreeBo

IAmTitleist wrote: »

Can see this taking out a lot of my enjoyment for the game to be honest.

There is no better feeling walking off the couse having battled to make buffer and avoid a 0.1 increase.

That doesn't appear to be a likely scenario from next year?!

I suppose, depending on into it you are, you will know what score is dropping off your 8/20 so will know what you need to beat/equal to keep your handicap?

Wont be as easy to know, especially playing on different courses but assuming the tools are in place and work well, should be possible.

prawnsambo

IAmTitleist wrote: »

Can see this taking out a lot of my enjoyment for the game to be honest.

There is no better feeling walking off the couse having battled to make buffer and avoid a 0.1 increase.

That doesn't appear to be a likely scenario from next year?!

No buffer any more. Your handicap index will be based on your best eight of your last twenty cards. It will likely change with every round you play. New system, new challenges to beat.

Seve OB

prawnsambo wrote: »

No buffer any more. Your handicap index will be based on your best eight of your last twenty cards. It will likely change with every round you play. New system, new challenges to beat.

from chatting with people who use similar systems over the years, they don't tend to change that much.

hurleronditch

Seve OB wrote: »

from chatting with people who use similar systems over the years, they don't tend to change that much.

If you’re a consistent golfer it is fairly benign alright, but at times you can see big jumps. It’s usually if you have a very good or a very bad round currently as one of your top 8 but approaching the back end of your 20 scores. It’s usually you have a very good round about to time out, and if you don’t shoot something low-ish it’ll get replaced by a higher number, and never mind your .1 back, you could get a whole shot back just by having a sh*te morning on your Sunday stableford.

Golf is my Game

hurleronditch wrote: »

If you’re a consistent golfer it is fairly benign alright, but at times you can see big jumps. It’s usually if you have a very good or a very bad round currently as one of your top 8 but approaching the back end of your 20 scores. It’s usually you have a very good round about to time out, and if you don’t shoot something low-ish it’ll get replaced by a higher number, and never mind your .1 back, you could get a whole shot back just by having a sh*te morning on your Sunday stableford.

Which is the same as being on something point four really. Or sort of.

GreeBo

hurleronditch wrote: »

If you’re a consistent golfer it is fairly benign alright, but at times you can see big jumps. It’s usually if you have a very good or a very bad round currently as one of your top 8 but approaching the back end of your 20 scores. It’s usually you have a very good round about to time out, and if you don’t shoot something low-ish it’ll get replaced by a higher number, and never mind your .1 back, you could get a whole shot back just by having a sh*te morning on your Sunday stableford.

well it means that you havent been able to replicate that performance, so really your handicap should increase, rather than struggle along for 10 weeks until you get 10 x 0.1s

searay

There is an individual in our club who is capable of playing off 5/6 but his handicap has been kept to 10/11 from the best efforts of the handicap committee to strictly enforce the number of .1s etc. He wins very regularly in non-qualifying competitions and is very hard to beat in Matchplay etc. I'd say the other 3 guys in his regular fourball are of a similar mindset but probably don't have his ability.

There are guys like them in many clubs who don't believe in the concept of getting to the lowest handicap you can and try to stay at that level.

I think these guys will use the new system to their benefit and will quite happily return bad scores for 20 rounds to set themselves up for a win.

The Amateur results from the AT&T pro-am in the US indicate that this goes on in the US.