Stick or twist in Civil Service?

beauf

beauf wrote: »

They are not myths. You just haven't experienced them so for you they don't exist. Some people will never experience them. That just life.

Indeed, for folk who can't deal with the possibility of encountering one or two of them over 40 years than the civil service is quite likely ideal

Miose

You are incredibly lucky not to have experienced any of those ‘myths’. 20+ years in the workforce, between myself and friends / family, I have seen it all happen. Your priorities change as you get older and with experience. Middle aged old folks like me are choosing to work in the public sector because of that.

theyoungchap

Miose wrote: »

You are incredibly lucky not to have experienced any of those ‘myths’. 20+ years in the workforce, between myself and friends / family, I have seen it all happen. Your priorities change as you get older and with experience. Middle aged old folks like me are choosing to work in the public sector because of that.

Between family and friends, yes it happens. If you listened to Joe Duffy, read every thread on here, everything happens.
But does all that happen to 1 person? No, it doesn't.

Good for you if you are happy in the PS. I hated every minute I spent in there and would recommend to anybody with a scrap of ambition, especially the OP who seems to be ambitious, get out before you get destroyed by a dysfunctional surrounding and row into a culture which supports (and in some case promotes) the weakest link.

To each their own I suppose though.

Claw Hammer

I have a sister in the Civil Service and another who left it years ago. The one who is in it had been through redundancies, windups liquidations et cetera in the private sector before becoming a Civil Servant. She has decided that the worst day in the Civil Service is better than the best that day in the Private Sector. There are quite a few Civil Servants who take the same view. The value of a Civil Service pension is now very high given the low interest rates. The pension of a middle level civil servant is now worth about 2 million Euro. Very few people working in the private sector will have €2 million in their hand when they want to retire.

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

........... The pension of a middle level civil servant is now worth about 2 million Euro. Very few people working in the private sector will have €2 million in their hand when they want to retire.

Well to be fair most folks commenting in here seem to be CP type folk, they'll never see a pension pot worth €2m either. Although they might think they will :pac:


Presumably none of the below pay scales you consider middle level?

Higher Executive Officer Higher Scale
47,426 – 48,730 – 50,035 – 51,347 – 52,653 – 54,532 – 55,766 – 57,007 – 58,251

Executive Officer
27,383 – 29,265 – 30,314 – 32,094 – 33,679 – 35,219 – 36,749 – 38,247 – 39,760 – 41,233 – 42,749 – 43,760 – 45,187¹ – 46,616²

Executive Officer Higher Scale
30,314 – 32,094 – 33,679 – 35,219 – 36,749 – 38,247 – 39,760 – 41,233 – 42,749 – 43,760 – 45,187 – 46,251 – 47,315 – 48,379

Staff Officer
34,070 – 35,481 – 36,751 – 37,894 – 39,043 – 40,199 – 41,359 – 42,473 – 43,350¹ – 44,906²

Clerical Officer
23,565 – 24,618 – 25,312 – 26,351 – 27,389 – 28,428 – 29,465 – 30,485 – 31,493 – 32,192 – 33,187 – 34,735 – 35,954¹ – 36,515²

Clerical Officer Higher Scale
24,618 – 25,312 – 26,351 – 27,389 – 28,428 – 29,465 – 30,485 – 31,493 – 32,192 – 33,187 – 34,735 – 35,954 – 36,515 – 37,267

theyoungchap

Claw Hammer wrote: »

She has decided that the worst day in the Civil Service is better than the best that day in the Private Sector. There are quite a few Civil Servants who take the same view.

As I say, each to their own, but for me the best day in the CS is worse than the worst day in the PS.....

If you stay in the CS just because of a pension, I think you need to assess your ambition in life.....

Look at how long it takes to get to HEO level and the salary connected with it - if you were any good at all, you would be on way more than that in about half the time in the PS. You can then save for your rainy day, which doesn't last as long in the PS as some would have you believe......

But as I say, to each their own.

beauf

theyoungchap wrote: »

...I hated every minute I spent in there and would recommend to anybody with a scrap of ambition, especially the OP who seems to be ambitious, get out before you get destroyed by a dysfunctional surrounding ...

I've worked for some pretty dysfunctional private companies. I don't write off the whole sector because of that limited experience. In a good private company or a good team in the PS you can have a good experience. Likewise you can have a bad one.

Same with running your own business or being an employee all your life.

Indricotherium

Claw Hammer wrote: »

I have a sister in the Civil Service and another who left it years ago. The one who is in it had been through redundancies, windups liquidations et cetera in the private sector before becoming a Civil Servant. She has decided that the worst day in the Civil Service is better than the best that day in the Private Sector. There are quite a few Civil Servants who take the same view. The value of a Civil Service pension is now very high given the low interest rates. The pension of a middle level civil servant is now worth about 2 million Euro. Very few people working in the private sector will have €2 million in their hand when they want to retire.

Nobody is disputing any of that (bar the figures).

The issue is whether that is worth it.

A lot of the civil service, and I know this from first hand experience, is working chronically under capacity. There are units and divisions with 100's of people in them doing tasks that lift right out of processes.

When I was a clerical officer I worked in a division of 11 staff, ranging in grade from AP to CO, that could literally have been replaced by a decent printer.

I left and worked in the private sector for a while, and I found working somewhere where your job and the jobs of the 100 people around you don't just lift out of a process is much more rewarding. Even with the insecurity and reduced pension terms I found it was better, and more healthy for myself to be out than in.

There are jobs in the civil service, where you earn reasonable money and do rewarding work, but in my experience there are much more of the other type.

Miose

Realistically the best avenue for the OP to take is a career break and try working in the private sector to see how it suits. But given that the OP was 5 months ago, they have probably jumped one way or another.

Claw Hammer

theyoungchap wrote: »

As I say, each to their own, but for me the best day in the CS is worse than the worst day in the PS.....

If you stay in the CS just because of a pension, I think you need to assess your ambition in life.....

Look at how long it takes to get to HEO level and the salary connected with it - if you were any good at all, you would be on way more than that in about half the time in the PS. You can then save for your rainy day, which doesn't last as long in the PS as some would have you believe......

But as I say, to each their own.

Are you going to save €2 million? I know a man, now 69 who left a HEO appointment many years ago to become a solicitor. He now has a pension of about €200 per week. If you stayed in the Civil Service and never got another promotion he would have a pension of €600 per week. To buy an annuity at the age of 65 which increases in line with inflation giving €600 week now for life would cost over €1 million. Needless to say this man does not have €1 million.

Indricotherium

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Are you going to save €2 million? I know a man, now 69 who left a HEO appointment many years ago to become a solicitor. He now has a pension of about €200 per week. If you stayed in the Civil Service and never got another promotion he would have a pension of €600 per week. To buy an annuity at the age of 65 which increases in line with inflation giving €600 week now for life would cost over €1 million. Needless to say this man does not have €1 million.

And 40 years licking stamps.

I would (and have) happily made a similar move.

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

......... To buy an annuity at the age of 65 which increases in line with inflation giving €600 week now for life would cost over €1 million. Needless to say this man does not have €1 million.

Buying an annuity when interest rates are on the floor is nothing short of lunacy.

A €780k pension pot would give you €600/week for much longer than needed if managed with the smallest bit of financial savvy.

HydroTendonMan

theyoungchap wrote: »

As I say, each to their own, but for me the best day in the CS is worse than the worst day in the PS.....

If you stay in the CS just because of a pension, I think you need to assess your ambition in life.....

Look at how long it takes to get to HEO level and the salary connected with it - if you were any good at all, you would be on way more than that in about half the time in the PS. You can then save for your rainy day, which doesn't last as long in the PS as some would have you believe......

But as I say, to each their own.

You are referring to how long the journey is from CO to HEO, but bear in mind that if you start at a company in an admin role there is little chance that you will ever reach the equivalent of HEO level.

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

.........The value of a Civil Service pension is now very high given the low interest rates. The pension of a middle level civil servant is now worth about 2 million Euro. ...............

Claw Hammer wrote: »

....................... If you stayed in the Civil Service and never got another promotion he would have a pension of €600 per week. To buy an annuity at the age of 65 which increases in line with inflation giving €600 week now for life would cost over €1 million. Needless to say this man does not have €1 million.

So middle level civil servants get pensions of €1200/week.
There aren't many of these middle level folk about so. And they are essentially on double the package of the Higher Executive Officer that you know.

Claw Hammer

Augeo wrote: »

Buying an annuity when interest rates are on the floor is nothing short of lunacy.

A €780k pension pot would give you €600/week for much longer than needed if managed with the smallest bit of financial savvy.

How many people in the private sector will have €780,000 saved by the time of retirement? How many will have the ability to invested to generate a return. What happens if they make a mess of their investments? I have come across a fair few people in their 70s who have had their life savings disappear in the downturn. Contrast that with public service pensioners whose cheque turns up every month, without fail. The pension will rise in accordance with the salaries of serving public servants thus protecting them from inflation as well as financial mismanagement. In addition to the weekly pension public servants get a retirement gratuity which they can invest to bring in further income. On a €600 a week pension, actuarially the gratuity should contribute another €100 per week.

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

How many people in the private sector will have €780,000 saved by the time of retirement? How many will have the ability to invested to generate a return. What happens if they make a mess of their investments? I have come across a fair few people in their 70s who have had their life savings disappear in the downturn. Contrast that with public service pensioners whose cheque turns up every month, without fail. The pension will rise in accordance with the salaries of serving public servants thus protecting them from inflation as well as financial mismanagement. In addition to the weekly pension public servants get a retirement gratuity which they can invest to bring in further income. On a €600 a week pension, actuarially the gratuity should contribute another €100 per week.

How many civil servants are HEOs? Most COs etc will never see such a pension.
I only mentioned a €780k fund as you mentioned a €600/week pension which is what you allege HEOs get. Private sector workers get the OAP too so they'd currently only need to self finance €400/week........a €520k fund would sort that.

Anyone who had a diversified portfolio (the basics of investing is to diversify) such as an S&P500 based index fund etc etc etc would have seen their money back 4 years after the downturn.

Anyone who had their entire was in BOI shares etc were badly advised and were foolish to act on the advice.

I can see your point. Folk with sfa financial savvy, little initiative etc etc are better off in the public sector. There's little doubt. It doesn't appeal to the entrepreneurs or go getters of the world though.

Claw Hammer

Augeo wrote: »

So middle level civil servants get pensions of €1200/week.
There aren't many of these middle level folk about so. And they are essentially on double the package of the Higher Executive Officer that you know.

Many civil servants can retire at 60 on full pension. Taking the higher annuity prices at the age of 60 and their retirement gratuity pension valuation of 2 million Euro does not equate to a pension of €1200 per week.

Claw Hammer

Augeo wrote: »

How many civil servants are HEOs? Most COs etc will never see such a pension.
I only mentioned a €780k fund as you mentioned a €600/week pension which is what you allege HEOs get.

Anyone who had a diversified portfolio (the basics of investing is to diversify) such as an S&P500 based index fund etc etc etc would have seen their money back 4 years after the downturn.

Anyone who had their entire was in BOI shares etc were badly advised and were foolish to act on the advice.

So people who can't get promoted beyond CO in the Civil Service are able to manage investment portfolios?

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

So people who can't get promoted beyond CO in the Civil Service are able to manage investment portfolios?

Where did I say that?
I would imagine most COs wouldn't know an investment portfolio from a hard days work though. They certainly won't be able to manage their own pension and their salaries aren't conducive to having much left over to invest.

Claw Hammer

Augeo wrote: »

Where did I say that?
I would imagine most COs wouldn't know an investment portfolio from a hard days work though. They certainly won't be able to manage their own pension and their salaries aren't conducive to having much left over to invest.

So why are you moaning about their pensions so?

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Many civil servants can retire at 60 on full pension..........

Many will be working to 70 going forward

doolox

I got my first job with an American multinational in 1979 and was let go in 1993.
I got another job in 1995 also with another American multinational in 1995 and took voluntary redundancy in 2007.

I took up another job in a similar sector with a small Irish company and was booted out after 6 months.

I now work in a totally different sector and a totally different job role and have done so as a self employed person for the past 10 yrs.

I am now enjoying my working life for the first time in my life.

Large organisations have many flaws among them being dysfunctional managers, toxically anti social workmates and endless pointless meetings and procedures which cripple a persons effectiveness and focus in getting a job or task done.

I found that there were multiple barriers put in the way of getting work done in my previous employments. A good supervisor could make the day fly and you would get job satisfaction at the end of each shift. A bad supervisor could make your life hell.

I work now in a free lance basis for 10 different organisations each week for about 1 hour to 2 hours in each location. If I lose one assignment it is not the end of the world. In engineering terms I now have a resilient level of redundancy in that one hirer cannot cripple me financially. The big proviso is that I have no commitments in terms of mortgages, dependent children or adult dependants....all are independent of me in financial terms.

The civil service and public service had the pleasure of the services of at least 7 of my close relatives, my mother, mother-in-law, wife, two sisters and two brothers-in-law. 7 out of my eight first cousins are in the public sector in defence and mental health. They appear to be in good form and work does not over tax them unduly. Unlike me they never seem to have financial worries or bullying bosses or health problems related to work.

Going by their life experiences I would say that the best thing to do is to stay in the civil service and be very reluctant to leave.

I have found my time in non unionised. unprotected employment in multinationals to be a mixed one. The money was never great, the unexpected and sudden redundancies were a kick in the teeth and the employment atmosphere, especially in my second employment was bad.

I would have much preferred to work in a unionised employment where at least you could resist some of the increasing demands being made on employees as society becomes more slavish and servile in the face of bullying, greedy and overbearing demands of rapacious capricious and demanding employers.

In the private sector all my life I felt inadequate, hunted, on my own and surrounded by rivals and enemies out to do you at every turn. At least in the unionised sector there would be some level of solidarity and support and less exploitation and abuse of a hard tryer. About 20% of my time was spent doing up reports and compiling data to justify my actions etc. This in a non degree post. God knows what the degree level people had to put up with.

Unless you are in very good health and have a family in very good health and no issues, stay in the public sector. You cannot tell when you will have a sick child, sick wife or aging relative that needs time off to care for. Good luck getting that in the private sector. Good luck getting back into employment after an extended leave of absence to look after family needs if they arise.

It might sound extreme but the first course of action I would take would be to get thorough health checks on yourself and on all your dependants and spouse so as to rule out any setback or external demand being made on your time and energy. The if everything checks out you might think about entering the private sector. Better still if you can retain your position in the civil service, unpaid leave or sabbatical, while trying out life in the private sector.

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

So why are you moaning about their pensions so?

I'm not at moaning about their pensions.
Yoou are the one spouting about the €600/week pension and how great it is. I'm merely pointing out some facts.

Claw Hammer

Augeo wrote: »

Many will be working to 70 going forward

Many might be holding office to 70. It doesn't mean they will be working.

Claw Hammer

Augeo wrote: »

I'm not at moaning about their pensions.
Yoou are the one spouting about the €600/week pension and how great it is. I'm merely pointing out some facts.

You haven't pointed out any facts. €600 is a lot more than €200. Most people who cannot get beyond CO in the civil service are most unlikely to make it into the big time in the private sector. They cannot in any event, be considered as middle level civil servants. Most will get at least one promotion before they retire and will have a pension of far more than €200 a week.

Hotblack Desiato

Augeo wrote: »

So middle level civil servants get pensions of €1200/week.

Half that at best, less tax, USC etc and deduct the state OAP from the net figure as you don't get both.

Indricotherium wrote: »

And 40 years licking stamps.

I would (and have) happily made a similar move.

HEOs don't lick stamps.

Actually everywhere would have franking machines so nobody licks stamps

doolox wrote: »

Better still if you can retain your position in the civil service, unpaid leave or sabbatical, while trying out life in the private sector.

You're not allowed work within Ireland while on career break.
I'd suggest the OP try the priesthood, if it doesn't work out then they'll keep his old job open for him (No, seriously... never heard of anyone who took this offer up but it's there!)

Indricotherium

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

HEOs don't lick stamps.

Actually everywhere would have franking machines so nobody licks stamps

Many do equally menial, and pointless tasks that are automated or handled by very junior staff in other organisations.

"Checking the spreadsheets" by printing them off and going through them with a ruler, a biro, and a ****ing calculator springs to mind.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You're not allowed work within Ireland while on career break.

Ur out of date there bud.

4ensic15

beauf wrote: »

You said the work was irrelevant.

Basically is just a label that you apply with no logic or rational. So you can apply it to every situation, because it has no meaning and every meaning you want.

You mean you don't understand what I meant and decide that if you don't understand there must be something wrong with it. Putting a pig into a stable doesn't make it a horse.

beauf

Your comments can't be wrong as they are meaningless. Contradicting themselves as they do.

If you don't like a job in the private sector you get a new one. The public sector isnt any different.

4ensic15

beauf wrote: »

Your comments can't be wrong as they are meaningless. Contradicting themselves as they do.

If you don't like a job in the private sector you get a new one. The public sector isnt any different.

That has nothing to do with my point that some people are natural civil servants and some are not. What actual work people do is irrelevant. A wages clerk in a factory might do the same work as a payroll clerk in the civil service. It doesn't make the wages clerk a civil servant.