Stick or twist in Civil Service?

Claw Hammer

theyoungchap wrote: »

I can assure you, plenty of us in the private sector will not be poor in our retirement either, and won't work in a miserable soul destroying environment in the meantime to get it.

Sure we could all be dead by the time we get there, just like you hoped the teacher in the Thai cave would be...........

typical retort, dodge the subject, attacked the poster. According to the laws of probability most of us will be alive and for a considerable period after the normal retirement age. Not providing for a pension on the basis that you might not need it is utter stupidity!

theyoungchap

Claw Hammer wrote: »

typical retort, dodge the subject, attacked the poster. According to the laws of probability most of us will be alive and for a considerable period after the normal retirement age. Not providing for a pension on the basis that you might not need it is utter stupidity!

Where did I say it was? What part of "I can assure you, plenty of us in the private sector will not be poor in our retirement either" didn't you understand?

My point is that I would not be willing to spend 30 miserable years in the PS for the sake of a pension, which was what the OP was asking. You seem to suggest it is the sole goal in life.

To each their own I guess, but for me I would have lost the will to live long before I got to enjoy the pension which seems to be your goal in life.

Claw Hammer

theyoungchap wrote: »

Where did I say it was? What part of "I can assure you, plenty of us in the private sector will not be poor in our retirement either" didn't you understand?

My point is that I would not be willing to spend 30 miserable years in the PS for the sake of a pension, which was what the OP was asking. You seem to suggest it is the sole goal in life.

To each their own I guess, but for me I would have lost the will to live long before I got to enjoy the pension which seems to be your goal in life.

You ignored the question as to whether you will have €2 million saved by the time you retire. You also saying that you might be dead or have lost the will to live by the time you reach retirement age, which does not imply any degree of planning or foresight. You've also resorted to making personal attacks. A pension is a major consideration in anybody's life. When someone gets too old to work, the sacrifices to secure their pension seem a lot less.

facehugger99

Claw Hammer wrote: »

It is going to be worse spending 30 years in retirement, living on the clippings of tin, while you watch former civil servants living in relative comfort with inflation proofed pensions.

I'd be far more concerned about my pension if I worked in the public service.

At least in the private service, your pension is actually funded by real money.

Public service pensions are a ponzi scheme and funded out of current expenditure. The public service pensions of those who retired 20 years ago are being paid for by today's workers out of the tax that they contribute to revenue every year.

Given the demographic trends, I would not be confident that there will be cash in the pot to pay today's public servants when they retire in 20 or 30 years time.

Will a smaller working population in 2045 be prepared to accept punitive rates of taxation to keep public servants in the style they've become accustomed to?

Doubtful I would think

Claw Hammer

facehugger99 wrote: »

I'd be far more concerned about my pension if I worked in the public service.

At least in the private service, your pension is actually funded by real money.

Public service pensions are a ponzi scheme and funded out of current expenditure. The public service pensions of those who retired 20 years ago are being paid for by today's workers out of the tax that they contribute to revenue every year.

Given the demographic trends, I would not be confident that there will be cash in the pot to pay today's public servants when they retire in 20 or 30 years time.

Will a smaller working population in 2045 be prepared to accept punitive rates of taxation to keep public servants in the style they've become accustomed to?

Doubtful I would think

In the private sector, the pension has to be paid by those at work. The pension money is invested in shares and stocks. If these investments fail, then the pension disappears. I know a man who was very senior in his company whose pension simply stopped 10 years ago. He is now working and is well into his 70s. Many company pensions have been left underfunded and are not paying out. Individuals need personal savings and investments outside of schemes in order to be more certain of an income in retirement. The generation at work always pays for the retired generation. There is little doubt that the demographic trend is towards a large elderly cohort in the population with a smaller proportion in the working court. There will be trouble.

realdanbreen

Publicsector OP wrote: »

Evening,

I am working in the civil service and finished my probation. I still don’t know if I am in for the long game or if it the culture is something I can live with happily. I am looking at what friends are getting in the private sector and some job advertisements. I am probably in the same boat as a lot of people who joined after the last recruitment embargo in that regard. The pay isn’t anything to write home about and the pension isn’t as gold plated as it once was (if it ever was).

That said it has a lot of benefits such as job security, flexible working hours and holidays. I really like that my in my current role instead of making money for a corporation I get the chance to contribute something to society on a daily basis. That is not to put down people who work in the private sector and contribute taxes. For the most part I like my colleagues and get on with them.

Down the line the civil service can provide continued training/education and whilst the pension isn’t as good as a lot of my older colleagues, it is a secure pension.

I dislike the bureaucracy (who doesn’t?!) and culture. The first I am coming to terms with and I can live with. The culture I don’t know about. Some of my colleagues are very hard workers, some are okay and finally their is a cohort of individuals who clocked out mentally sometime ago and/or wouldn’t hold down a job elsewhere for various reasons. My issue wouldn’t be so much the individuals but that the culture despite lip service to change appears to be a don’t rock the boat and instead of managing the issues, let others pick up the slack and transfer the more difficult workers to elsewhere.

Their is no carrot for good workers and no stick for underperformance. I don’t know if I can work within that culture for 40 years as someone who is hard working and wants to be rewarded/recognized for that effort. A lot of the bad apples/poor workers are upon retirement going to have a better deal then me in all likelihood. That can be hard to put aside for me on a daily basis, despite all the other great things going for my current job!

For those who have faced this same dilemma before and left or stayed in the service, did yous regret it?

You'll be grand.
If you were unsure about whether you could 'work within that culture for 40 years' then you would simply have plans made to get out ASAP. So relax you won't feel until it's 2058!

theyoungchap

Claw Hammer wrote: »

You also saying that you might be dead or have lost the will to live by the time you reach retirement age, which does not imply any degree of planning or foresight.

I have a pension fund which is performing fine thank you. Maybe re-read (if you can) my point re having lost the will to live - my point was I would have lost the will to live if I spent 30+ years in PS.

Claw Hammer wrote: »

You've also resorted to making personal attacks.

Well somebody who hoped the Thai schoolteacher (who you have no idea what he did to save those young childrens lives) died in a cave rather than be rescued deserves nothing better.

Claw Hammer wrote: »

A pension is a major consideration in anybody's life.

It is, but it is only one consideration. It is not the be all and end all. There are other ways to fund retirement you know. Plenty of people in the private sector will own property which is practically guaranteed to inflate in value......don't think your PS pension is the only way to look after yourself in retirement.

Claw Hammer

theyoungchap wrote: »

I have a pension fund which is performing fine thank you. Maybe re-read (if you can) my point re having lost the will to live - my point was I would have lost the will to live if I spent 30+ years in PS.


Well somebody who hoped the Thai schoolteacher (who you have no idea what he did to save those young childrens lives) died in a cave rather than be rescued deserves nothing better.


It is, but it is only one consideration. It is not the be all and end all. There are other ways to fund retirement you know. Plenty of people in the private sector will own property which is practically guaranteed to inflate in value......don't think your PS pension is the only way to look after yourself in retirement.

How much property do you have? Property is not guaranteed to inflate in value. It goes through cycles. 6 or 7 years ago, it was very difficult to rent out property. Sometimes locations change, or there are long void periods. There can also be difficulties getting the rent from tenants. It is far from a surefire thing.

theyoungchap

Claw Hammer wrote: »

How much property do you have? Property is not guaranteed to inflate in value. It goes through cycles. 6 or 7 years ago, it was very difficult to rent out property. Sometimes locations change, or there are long void periods. There can also be difficulties getting the rent from tenants. It is far from a surefire thing.

Property in the right place will always make you money my good man, and will over 30-40 years is a more sure bet than your pension fund is.

Claw Hammer

theyoungchap wrote: »

Property in the right place will always make you money my good man, and will over 30-40 years is a more sure bet than your pension fund is.

How much property do you have? Where is the right place?

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

You ignored the question as to whether you will have €2 million saved by the time you retire. ...........

Go through this bit for us again, detailing the actual figures so we can understand what civil servants get pensions that would require a €2m pension pot. I don't think many of them end up on €80k/annum in their retirement days tbh but I'm all ears.

theyoungchap

Claw Hammer wrote: »

theyoungchap wrote: »

Property in the right place will always make you money my good man, and will over 30-40 years is a more sure bet than your pension fund is.

How much property do you have? Where is the right place?

Go do your own research....

bobbysands81

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I find that extremely hard to believe. Every single job on the planet is a lot of "who you know" plus from my own experiences, lads who got into offices and civil servant jobs generally got in because their mother/father/aunt etc put in a word. To claim otherwise is rubbish.

I don’t even know where to start with that comment.

If somebody even tries to put in a word for you in a competition you are automatically disqualified.

Can you provide one single shred of proof to back your assertion?

4ensic15

HydroTendonMan wrote: »

No to claim otherwise is fact. And public information if you are bothered to search for it.

Maybe this was once the case, but it is all done now via open competition.

Typical cheerleader civil servant comment. "That is all in the past. We are pure now."

relax carry on

4ensic15 wrote: »

Typical cheerleader civil servant comment. "That is all in the past. We are pure now."

Seriously do any of you know or understand how the recruitment process works in the Civil Service? I posted the link for PAS earlier. Knock yourselves out.

4ensic15

How come all of the Chairmen of the Revenue Commissioners for decades were members of the Knights of Columbanus?

bobbysands81

4ensic15 wrote: »

How come all of the Chairmen of the Revenue Commissioners for decades were members of the Knights of Columbanus?

Ha ha ha!!!

Tell us more about this, I’ve not heard it before.

4ensic15

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Ha ha ha!!!

Tell us more about this, I’ve not heard it before.

Sean Bedford, Chairman in the 1960s, Supreme Knight. All his successors for years after were Knights.

Nermal

facehugger99 wrote: »

Will a smaller working population in 2045 be prepared to accept punitive rates of taxation to keep public servants in the style they've become accustomed to?

Doubtful I would think

Let me get this straight: pensioners are already the most powerful group in our society, and you think that in the future when there are way more of them, the rules will be changed to their disadvantage?

If anything, having a defined contribution pot is a liability. Who do you think will face a 'levy' to bail out our public sector?

bobbysands81

4ensic15 wrote: »

Sean Bedford, Chairman in the 1960s, Supreme Knight. All his successors for years after were Knights.

Really? You’ve not told me much about it yet, as I said I’m interested in your story about it and why you think it’s important.

4ensic15

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Really? You’ve not told me much about it yet, as I said I’m interested in your story about it and why you think it’s important.

Do you doubt it?

relax carry on

4ensic15 wrote: »

How come all of the Chairmen of the Revenue Commissioners for decades were members of the Knights of Columbanus?

Ok, we are off on some mad tangent here.

I'll try again. Do you know how the recruitment process works in the Civil Service? I'm guessing by the quote above, the answer is no. Please have a look at PAS. There might even be a job you can apply for there.

4ensic15

relax carry on wrote: »

Ok, we are off on some mad tangent here.

I'll try again. Do you know how the recruitment process works in the Civil Service? I'm guessing by the quote above, the answer is no. Please have a look at PAS. There might even be a job you can apply for there.

There is the public posturing and then there is the reality. I have no intention of applying for any job on public jobs or anywhere else.

bobbysands81

4ensic15 wrote: »

Do you doubt it?

Not at all. I’m wondering what significance you attach to it though and how it’s relevant to today.

Trying to get info out of you though is a bit like “chase me, chase me.”

relax carry on

4ensic15 wrote: »

There is the public posturing and then there is the reality.

So you believe the entire independent recruitment process for the civil service is compromised by people in the know who have managed to get over 37500 of their family and friends into jobs ahead of everyone else? My tinfoil hat off to you sir.

theyoungchap

theyoungchap wrote: »

Look at how long it takes to get to HEO level and the salary connected with it - if you were any good at all, you would be on way more than that in about half the time in the PS.

youre talking rubbish, to be honest.

tell me now how long it takes to become a HEO in the civil service. put a figure on it.

ill tell you what % of new entrants in the departments ive worked for will beat that.

ill even ignore that you can easily join the CS at HEO/AO/AP level now.

frankly, and seeing as youre so very certain of your statements being universal (the rueful overheard remark about pitt the younger comes to mind- "i wish i was half so sure of anything as you are about everything") i would perhaps note that if you joined a department, sat there clockwatching and hating it, tis little feckin wonder you have a very skewed notion of the career it can be, and a very skewed notion of what it takes to get ahead in it- and how quickly it can be done with the same initiative and applied effort that would see you a success in any sector.

ive never been told "slow down".

ive never seen anyone "go home sick at lunch on a training course"

its absolute piddle.

sounds to me like you took yr prejudices in with you and they did you no favours tbph

uck51js9zml2yt

Claw Hammer wrote: »

It is going to be worse spending 30 years in retirement, living on the clippings of tin, while you watch former civil servants living in relative comfort with inflation proofed pensions.

Pensions aren't what they where. It's average salary over the period, not final salary as it was.

bobbysands81

theyoungchap wrote: »

Look at how long it takes to get to HEO level and the salary connected with it - if you were any good at all, you would be on way more than that in about half the time in the PS. You can then save for your rainy day, which doesn't last as long in the PS as some would have you believe......

But as I say, to each their own.

There was a moratorium for about 8 years, how was it possible to get promoted then?

facehugger99

facehugger99 wrote: »

I'd be far more concerned about my pension if I worked in the public service.

At least in the private service, your pension is actually funded by real money.

Public service pensions are a ponzi scheme and funded out of current expenditure. The public service pensions of those who retired 20 years ago are being paid for by today's workers out of the tax that they contribute to revenue every year.

Given the demographic trends, I would not be confident that there will be cash in the pot to pay today's public servants when they retire in 20 or 30 years time.

Will a smaller working population in 2045 be prepared to accept punitive rates of taxation to keep public servants in the style they've become accustomed to?

Doubtful I would think

as always comes up on this point:

public sector pensions are, to the best theoretical knowledge ive heard (from the person likely to advise the govt on this point of policy) treatable as salary earned.

the govt would likely have to be in the position of defaulting before legally unilaterally moving on pensions earned.

of course its ridiculously moot. pensions have changed twice in the relevant timeframe and projections and fantasies such as above are now...hmm lemme see...23 years out of date (i know a few AOs born since then btw).

pension costs are covered and provisioned more securely, openly and safely than any if the above suggests. again its nonsense. again, it should be on a sticky. the point is factually incoherent and should be rejected out of hand.

AndrewJRenko

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I find that extremely hard to believe. Every single job on the planet is a lot of "who you know" plus from my own experiences, lads who got into offices and civil servant jobs generally got in because their mother/father/aunt etc put in a word. To claim otherwise is rubbish.

So please do share your experiences in more detail - when did this happen? What level did the lads get in at? And what departments? And how did mammy/daddy know who to put the word in with, given that interview panels are only selected a week or two before interview? Was it just coincidence that mammy/daddy found that they knew the interviewers out of the 37.5k people in the service?

facehugger99 wrote: »

I'd be far more concerned about my pension if I worked in the public service.
,,,,
Will a smaller working population in 2045 be prepared to accept punitive rates of taxation to keep public servants in the style they've become accustomed to?

Doubtful I would think

There is indeed an issue here, as I keep reminding Eddie Hobbs when he talks about gold plated. It's not about keeping anyone in the style they've become accustomed to. It is about keeping contractual commitments - paying debts. Are you suggesting that it's a good idea for future governments to walk away from their contractual debts?

theyoungchap wrote: »

Property in the right place will always make you money my good man, and will over 30-40 years is a more sure bet than your pension fund is.

Make sure you put the cost of your time spent managing a property into your calculation. AIB don't ring shareholders on Saturday nights to fix the washing machine. Make sure you put the benefit of 40% tax relief into your calculation.

4ensic15 wrote: »

How come all of the Chairmen of the Revenue Commissioners for decades were members of the Knights of Columbanus?

4ensic15 wrote: »

Sean Bedford, Chairman in the 1960s, Supreme Knight. All his successors for years after were Knights.

For how many years after were his successors Knights? And do you have any credible source for your claims?

4ensic15 wrote: »

There is the public posturing and then there is the reality. I have no intention of applying for any job on public jobs or anywhere else.

Reality indeed - any chance of a source or two for your claims?

Peter Faint Pane wrote: »

Pensions aren't what they where. It's average salary over the period, not final salary as it was.

Just to clarify, that's the case for new entrants, post-2013.