Stick or twist in Civil Service?

4ensic15

http://www.papalorders.ie/index.php/past-members-2?format=html&task=memberDetails&mid=151

4ensic15

Deleted User wrote: »

pension costs are covered and provisioned more securely, openly and safely than any if the above suggests. again its nonsense. again, it should be on a sticky. the point is factually incoherent and should be rejected out of hand.

This is utter gibberish. Pensions Civil Service and OAP OACP etc are paid out of current taxation. There was a National Reserve fund intended to make some provision but it was raided to bail out the banks. The cost of paying pensions to retired people is rising at a higher rate than general taxation. Demographic pressures are already seen in the raising of the pension age, the averaging of salary for the public service, the total contributions basis for the OACP. These pressures are ongoing and continuing.

theyoungchap

Deleted User wrote: »

youre talking rubbish, to be honest.

tell me now how long it takes to become a HEO in the civil service. put a figure on it.

ill tell you what % of new entrants in the departments ive worked for will beat that.

ill even ignore that you can easily join the CS at HEO/AO/AP level now.

frankly, and seeing as youre so very certain of your statements being universal (the rueful overheard remark about pitt the younger comes to mind- "i wish i was half so sure of anything as you are about everything") i would perhaps note that if you joined a department, sat there clockwatching and hating it, tis little feckin wonder you have a very skewed notion of the career it can be, and a very skewed notion of what it takes to get ahead in it- and how quickly it can be done with the same initiative and applied effort that would see you a success in any sector.

ive never been told "slow down".

ive never seen anyone "go home sick at lunch on a training course"

its absolute piddle.

sounds to me like you took yr prejudices in with you and they did you no favours tbph

I think you need to open your eyes and your ears or get your head out of the sand, take your pick....but anyway I have told the OP what I think and after that it is to each their own.

(And by the way, my employer last year spent 3k on a training course and there were 3 PS who showed up for the first half of the 2-day course and didn't show up for any more. All "sick". Some things you can just never change).

4ensic15

4ensic15 wrote: »

This is utter gibberish. Pensions Civil Service and OAP OACP etc are paid out of current taxation. There was a National Reserve fund intended to make some provision but it was raided to bail out the banks. The cost of paying pensions to retired people is rising at a higher rate than general taxation. Demographic pressures are already seen in the raising of the pension age, the averaging of salary for the public service, the total contributions basis for the OACP. These pressures are ongoing and continuing.

ignoring the first half of the response i note.

you're delving in and out of general points about an overall ageing demographic and economy-wide concerns over retirement income, you're lumping in COAP recipients as if it was somehow relevant to the point, you're ignoring the contribution of current CS pension contributions (inc PRSI and all new levies) to the exchequer as if this just somehow doesnt come into the balancing.

youve at least acknowledged the significant steps taken (which doomsdayers rarely if ever acknowledge are in train, but will take decades to take effect)-COAP element built-in since 95, the raising of retirement ages, the averaging basis of new entrants scheme, and youve somehow turned them into a finger-wag!



lookit, would u schtoppp.

theyoungchap

theyoungchap wrote: »

I think you need to open your eyes and your ears or get your head out of the sand, take your pick....but anyway I have told the OP what I think and after that it is to each their own.

(And by the way, my employer last year spent 3k on a training course and there were 3 PS who showed up for the first half of the 2-day course and didn't show up for any more. All "sick". Some things you can just never change).

apologies, there's not much point responding to your first paragraph and we'd only be trading anecdata if we proceeded with the second.

good luck in whatever sector.

Claw Hammer

theyoungchap wrote: »

Go do your own research....

I take that to mean that you have no property, or at least no investment property. Therefore you don't know where the right place is.

theyoungchap

Claw Hammer wrote: »

I take that to mean that you have no property, or at least no investment property. Therefore you don't know where the right place is.

After your comment on the Thai rescue I wouldn't tell you what I had for breakfast....

But if you want to kid yourself that I am talking through my hat, be my guest. All I will say, buying property in 09 was a good idea.....and I am waiting for the next downturn to buy more.

But of course I don't know anything about. I know one thing - I will be enjoying my retirement fund before you will.

theyoungchap

Deleted User wrote: »

apologies, there's not much point responding to your first paragraph and we'd only be trading anecdata if we proceeded with the second.

What's anecdata when its at home? There is no ANECDOTE here its a fact.

Hotblack Desiato

4ensic15 wrote: »

There is the public posturing and then there is the reality. I have no intention of applying for any job on public jobs or anywhere else.

There's posturing and reality alright, the thing is that you have got the two of them back to front.

4ensic15 wrote: »

http://www.papalorders.ie/index.php/past-members-2?format=html&task=memberDetails&mid=151

Collector General is not the chairman of Revenue, but even if he was, so what? It was a long time ago in a very different Ireland. How many in business, the banks (except BOI and Ulster, they were all protestants) etc. fifty-odd years ago were bigwigs in catholic organisations?

Denis O'Brien and a bunch of Irish property developers donated a few million to renovate the Pauline Chapel in the Vatican and there's a nice plaque in Latin with their names on it.



https://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/c-c-leaves-bitter-taste-signalling-virtue-over-minimum-pricing-1.3294593

Irish businessmen donate to Vatican chapel

Speaking of business people and virtue, I was especially tickled to learn from our religious-affairs correspondent, Patsy McGarry, that some of the biggest names in Irish business have helped to pay for the restoration of a 16th century church in Rome, near the Sistine chapel.

Our correspondent was wandering through the sacristy of the Vatican’s magnificent Pauline chapel, a private space where popes are known pray and home to frescoes by Michelangelo, when, lo, he spotted a plaque on the wall. It listed 26 benefactors, including many prominent Irish names who have helped finance a €9 million restoration of the church that began in 2002.

The Irish benefactors are: telecoms tycoon Denis O’Brien, property developers Paddy McKillen, Johnny Ronan and Sean Mulryan, and bankers or financiers Sean FitzPatrick, Michael Fingleton and Derek Quinlan.

Bless them.

So, anyway...

Sean Bedford, Chairman in the 1960s, Supreme Knight. All his successors for years after were Knights.

How many years? Name the individuals. Provide your sources.

theyoungchap

theyoungchap wrote: »

What's anecdata when its at home? There is no ANECDOTE here its a fact.

whooosh

good lad

Ygritte

After reading the posts from the last few days, I asked a few of my colleagues about internal promotions. Two of them are there years at CO level, one of them is very good at her job, so good the HEO continously asks for her help with stuff. She doesn't take the piss out of tea breaks either. The other would be better than the average unmotivated lifer. I asked them why they didn't go for EO since they were there so long.

They told me with the internal comps, it comes down to who does the best interview and your superior's opinion (if you don't have a good relationship with them, forget it) not much to do with your actual performance on the job. There was one that was recently promoted to HEO and the general consensus is this person was a sycophant, abused breaks and took full advantage of the sick leave allowances...BUT she could sell herself like the best of them.They said after years of watching people like that get promoted, they stopped applying. They won't leave now because they are in for a good pension and I think their motivation for applying through open competition for EO has been sucked out of them at this stage.

As a new person to the CS I can honestly say the pension is not a patch on the pension pots of those that have retired and are currently retiring. IMO gone are the days of the CS being a "good pensionable job".

Ygritte

Ygritte wrote: »

After reading the posts from the last few days, I asked a few of my colleagues about internal promotions. Two of them are there years at CO level, one of them is very good at her job, so good the HEO continously asks for her help with stuff. She doesn't take the piss out of tea breaks either. The other would be better than the average unmotivated lifer. I asked them why they didn't go for EO since they were there so long.

They told me with the internal comps, it comes down to who does the best interview and your superior's opinion (if you don't have a good relationship with them, forget it) not much to do with your actual performance on the job. There was one that was recently promoted to HEO and the general consensus is this person was a sycophant, abused breaks and took full advantage of the sick leave allowances...BUT she could sell herself like the best of them.They said after years of watching people like that get promoted, they stopped applying. They won't leave now because they are in for a good pension and I think their motivation for applying through open competition for EO has been sucked out of them at this stage.

As a new person to the CS I can honestly say the pension is not a patch on the pension pots of those that have retired and are currently retiring. IMO gone are the days of the CS being a "good pensionable job".

Im sure that they are as likely right as not, and Ive heard these opinions from people at various levels about anyone ahead of them in both private sector and public sector jobs in my days

but......

Would you not perhaps think about asking someone who had been successful in a competition about it!?

even for balance and your own info if for no other reason?

Ygritte

Deleted User wrote: »

Would you not perhaps think about asking someone who had been successful in a competition about it!?even for balance and your own info if for no other reason?

Well like I said I'm new there, and on a small enough team. The EO's are coming up to retirement and apparently got EO by default/length of service as was the norm back in the day (so I've been told!) so no competition to ask them about....and they are so cliquey I don't think I'd get an honest answer out of them! I'm not going to ask my pig of HEO how he got his promotion tbh. He golfs with his AP & PO which says it all to me!!

Pawwed Rig

Ygritte wrote: »

He golfs with his AP & PO which says it all to me!!

says what exactly

bobbysands81

4ensic15 wrote: »

This is utter gibberish. Pensions Civil Service and OAP OACP etc are paid out of current taxation. There was a National Reserve fund intended to make some provision but it was raided to bail out the banks. The cost of paying pensions to retired people is rising at a higher rate than general taxation. Demographic pressures are already seen in the raising of the pension age, the averaging of salary for the public service, the total contributions basis for the OACP. These pressures are ongoing and continuing.

Currently the pension levy takes in more than is paid out.

bobbysands81

4ensic15 wrote: »

How come all of the Chairmen of the Revenue Commissioners for decades were members of the Knights of Columbanus?

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Really? You’ve not told me much about it yet, as I said I’m interested in your story about it and why you think it’s important.

Still waiting on the answer to this 4ensic15, whenever you get a chance.

Ygritte

Ygritte wrote: »

Well like I said I'm new there, and on a small enough team. The EO's are coming up to retirement and apparently got EO by default/length of service as was the norm back in the day (so I've been told!) so no competition to ask them about....and they are so cliquey I don't think I'd get an honest answer out of them! I'm not going to ask my pig of HEO how he got his promotion tbh. He golfs with his AP & PO which says it all to me!!

i can only lol tbh

Claw Hammer

theyoungchap wrote: »

After your comment on the Thai rescue I wouldn't tell you what I had for breakfast....

But if you want to kid yourself that I am talking through my hat, be my guest. All I will say, buying property in 09 was a good idea.....and I am waiting for the next downturn to buy more.

But of course I don't know anything about. I know one thing - I will be enjoying my retirement fund before you will.

Keep your frosties hidden. So you have no investment property but are going to make a couple of million before you are 60.

theyoungchap

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Keep your frosties hidden. So you have no investment property but are going to make a couple of million before you are 60.

You believe what you want sir. I aint going to justify my preparations for retirement to a pathetic loser like you. I'm alright though.....don't you worry about me :-)

Now you have a good day, tea break is only around the corner!

AndrewJRenko

theyoungchap wrote: »

(And by the way, my employer last year spent 3k on a training course and there were 3 PS who showed up for the first half of the 2-day course and didn't show up for any more. All "sick". Some things you can just never change).

Please provide details of the course and the Department or agency involved. I'll submit an FOI request for more details and we will see what happened.

AndrewJRenko

4ensic15 wrote: »

http://www.papalorders.ie/index.php/past-members-2?format=html&task=memberDetails&mid=151

Eh, these aren't the Knights of Columbanus, and the Collector General is not the Chairperson of Revenue.

And you seem to have forgotten about your "all his successors for years" bit of your claim. Do people really get away with this kind of sloppy attention to detail in the private sector?

theyoungchap

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Please provide details of the course and the Department or agency involved. I'll submit an FOI request for more details and we will see what happened.

I will find out the dates and will PM you.

Claw Hammer

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Keep your frosties hidden. So you have no investment property but are going to make a couple of million before you are 60.

What's driving the €2m figure again?
Because all civil servants get €500k lump sum and €60k/annum in retirement ?

Anyway, to hit a pension fund of €2m if you were throwing in the max amounts possible from a €60k salary for about 32 years you'd need just 7% average growth year on year.

Do the same from a €30k salary for 30 years and you end up with a fund of €1m.

Of course you need to diversify and use the likes of S&P500, FTSE100 etc index or ETF .......... no contribution charges and a management fee of no greater than 1%.


Upon retirement if you don't go the annuity route your estate will get the balance when you die :cool:

I really don't think the lads I deal with when I'm taxing my car etc will be on €60k pensions though so your €2m theory applies to the select few IMO.

HydroTendonMan

I think your credibility took a hit when the conspiracy theories came into it.

relax carry on

Ygritte wrote: »

After reading the posts from the last few days, I asked a few of my colleagues about internal promotions. Two of them are there years at CO level, one of them is very good at her job, so good the HEO continously asks for her help with stuff. She doesn't take the piss out of tea breaks either. The other would be better than the average unmotivated lifer. I asked them why they didn't go for EO since they were there so long.

They told me with the internal comps, it comes down to who does the best interview and your superior's opinion (if you don't have a good relationship with them, forget it) not much to do with your actual performance on the job. There was one that was recently promoted to HEO and the general consensus is this person was a sycophant, abused breaks and took full advantage of the sick leave allowances...BUT she could sell herself like the best of them.They said after years of watching people like that get promoted, they stopped applying. They won't leave now because they are in for a good pension and I think their motivation for applying through open competition for EO has been sucked out of them at this stage.

As a new person to the CS I can honestly say the pension is not a patch on the pension pots of those that have retired and are currently retiring. IMO gone are the days of the CS being a "good pensionable job".

Internal promotions are different to external recruitment for the tinfoil hat wearing members of the discussion in case they consider this proves their point on recruitment.

In the dim and distant past in the CS, promotion was seniority based and you will still find some people in positions they are totally unsuited to because of that. Natural wastage is ensuring their numbers dwindle. Internal promotions are merit based and required competency based interviews. However i can only speak from experiening internal promotion competitions through taking them and helping staff and colleagues prepare for them.

In my organisation the internal comps are advertised to all who meet the criteria to apply for them. The application forms are the first test. They are designed to frustrate. Quite a few people I helped over the years weren't even going to apply because of the form. I got the sure I've applied before and got nowhere speech but when I looked at their forms, inevitably there was nothing in them to showcase their experience or skills which they had never really thought about. They weren't in most cases actively seeking something to make them shine for promotion. Doing your job grand isn't enough.

The forms are assessed by internal HR panels for suitability and/or prelim interviews follow. The interview stage for those who had applied before had again frustrated them as interviews are another test of a skillset which they had either underdeveloped or not considered again. The interview panels are formed of senior officers and will be either unknown to you or hardly known to you. Feedback from the competency based interviews including notes taken are available. The process is supposed to follow PAS guidelines and an appeals process is available.

To be honest I've come across some staff and colleagues who were frustrated by the whole process and believed they deserved the promotion over others for whatever reason. Most of those are at the limits of their abilities within the organisation or did not want to push themselves any further than necessary. In short make your own decisions. If you want promotions you will find a way to make it happen. It isn't a who you know scenario.

back of postcard stuff for valuation of final benefits, assuming 40 years (theres no real way to equate it to a lump sum that would purchase the relevant benefits i dont think):

(((final salary/2 x 20) + (final salary x 1.5))x 1.2) (this latter 1.2 approx to allow for spouse and children's benefits, im sure there's a figure somewhere to use)

whether anyone wants to work out what contributions would add up to over that time, given progression, the various schemes, levies, COAP built-in to PRSI, then compare to the common contributions private workers of comparable professional role or education/experience profile and what their employers might contribute (plenty match to in or around 7% of salary, know plenty go up to 10+%) and guess what, even if you're still reading i bet i havent changed the opinion you started with

Stheno

theyoungchap wrote: »

You believe what you want sir. I aint going to justify my preparations for retirement to a pathetic loser like you. I'm alright though.....don't you worry about me :-)

Now you have a good day, tea break is only around the corner!

mod

don't post in this thread again

Indricotherium

relax carry on wrote: »

interviews are another test of a skillset

I think this is the gripe really.

PMDS is simply not used to prevent people who underperform on a daily basis from getting to that interview.

shawki

If i entered the civil service with a degree at CO level and did the Chartered Tax exams.

Would the new qualification be considered during the promotion process?

shawki

shawki wrote: »

If i entered the civil service with a degree at CO level and did the Chartered Tax exams.

Would the new qualification be considered during the promotion process?

yep. especially if relevant to the role applied for, generally still a good demonstration of initiative and a range of other desirables

*not sure where it ranks on NQF so cant answer if it suffices if requirement states and honours degree etc