Stick or twist in Civil Service?

4ensic15

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Eh, these aren't the Knights of Columbanus, and the Collector General is not the Chairperson of Revenue.

No one said they were the Knights of Columbanus. No one said that that the Collector General was the Chairperson of Revenue.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And you seem to have forgotten about your "all his successors for years" bit of your claim. Do people really get away with this kind of sloppy attention to detail in the private sector?

I haven't forgotten anything. As for attention to detail, I thought you could read!

AndrewJRenko

4ensic15 wrote: »

No one said they were the Knights of Columbanus. No one said that that the Collector General was the Chairperson of Revenue.


I haven't forgotten anything. As for attention to detail, I thought you could read!

You said:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107493329&postcount=137

4ensic15 wrote: »

How come all of the Chairmen of the Revenue Commissioners for decades were members of the Knights of Columbanus?

The example you presented when challenged about this was Sean Bedford, Papal Knight and Collector General.

So do you have any actual evidence to support your original claim that "all of the Chairmen of the Revenue Commissioners for decades were members of the Knights of Columbanus"?

4ensic15

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You said:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=107493329&postcount=137



The example you presented when challenged about this was Sean Bedford, Papal Knight and Collector General.

So do you have any actual evidence to support your original claim that "all of the Chairmen of the Revenue Commissioners for decades were members of the Knights of Columbanus"?

The example presented showed Sean Bedford who was supreme knight, chairman of the revenue commissioners and first collector general. Clearly you can't read.
The Knights don't post membership lists on the net.

Stheno

mod

enough of the sidebars.

post helpful information to the op only

Bob Cratchit

Ygritte wrote: »

After reading the posts from the last few days, I asked a few of my colleagues about internal promotions. Two of them are there years at CO level, one of them is very good at her job, so good the HEO continously asks for her help with stuff. She doesn't take the piss out of tea breaks either. The other would be better than the average unmotivated lifer. I asked them why they didn't go for EO since they were there so long.

They told me with the internal comps, it comes down to who does the best interview and your superior's opinion (if you don't have a good relationship with them, forget it) not much to do with your actual performance on the job. There was one that was recently promoted to HEO and the general consensus is this person was a sycophant, abused breaks and took full advantage of the sick leave allowances...BUT she could sell herself like the best of them.They said after years of watching people like that get promoted, they stopped applying. They won't leave now because they are in for a good pension and I think their motivation for applying through open competition for EO has been sucked out of them at this stage.

As a new person to the CS I can honestly say the pension is not a patch on the pension pots of those that have retired and are currently retiring. IMO gone are the days of the CS being a "good pensionable job".

100% agree with this. I have had the same conversations with people who don't go for promotion.

Sir Ophiuchus

I've no real info on the ins and outs of internal promotion, but the new pension really is terrible in comparison. The calculations look very complex, but, basically:

- Previously you'd be entitled to half your FINAL salary after 40 years' service. So if you retire on the top of your scale at €60k, your pension was €30k.

- Now, however, you're entitled to half your CAREER AVERAGE salary after 40 years. This is a lot less.

Bob Cratchit

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

I've no real info on the ins and outs of internal promotion, but the new pension really is terrible in comparison. The calculations look very complex, but, basically:

- Previously you'd be entitled to half your FINAL salary after 40 years' service. So if you retire on the top of your scale at €60k, your pension was €30k.

- Now, however, you're entitled to half your CAREER AVERAGE salary after 40 years. This is a lot less.

It’s not good for new entrants. There’s a modeller here: https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie

Every day worked you accrue an amount towards your pension. You also pay in to your lump sum. If anyone here is an actuary I’d love you to have a look...

CSP threshold = 3.74 x current CSP rate x your pay frequency
0.58% x your full-time gross pensionable remuneration up to the CSP Threshold x your % work pattern
plus (if applicable)
1.25% x your full-time gross pensionable remuneration above the CSP Threshold x your % work pattern

Sir Ophiuchus

I know; in practice that works out as roughly half the career average salary.

beauf

Indricotherium wrote: »

..
PMDS is simply not used to prevent people who underperform on a daily basis from getting to that interview.

I have never seen a PMDS that worked as intended.

4ensic15

Deleted User wrote: »

pension costs are covered and provisioned more securely, openly and safely than any if the above suggests. again its nonsense. again, it should be on a sticky. the point is factually incoherent and should be rejected out of hand.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/health-funding-increases-have-not-improved-services-review-finds-1.3570659

The review has found that the cost of public sector pensions to the exchequer will rise from €3.4 billion last year to €5.3 billion by 2025, while the contributions from public servants will remain static at about €1.6 billion a year. The cost of public sector pensions will rise to €7.3 billion by 2040.

4ensic15

4ensic15 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/health-funding-increases-have-not-improved-services-review-finds-1.3570659

The review has found that the cost of public sector pensions to the exchequer will rise from €3.4 billion last year to €5.3 billion by 2025, while the contributions from public servants will remain static at about €1.6 billion a year. The cost of public sector pensions will rise to €7.3 billion by 2040.

fair and relevant!

dper review from only a year or two ago at some variance with that so it would be interested to see where the divergence has occurred

but if thats accurate im buying a pitchfork and joining the mob

uck51js9zml2yt

25% of staff are retiring between 2017-2021.
That's 7000 people,most of whom will have 40 years on the old system.
It's not surprising the report!

Sycamore Tree

Cold Night wrote: »

I think you'd be mad to throw away a cushy gig in the CS.

Nonsense. A cushy safe job is not living unless you really find it interesting and rewarding. I would advise all young people to work in the private sector before going near the public service. I worked for 2 years in the county council....never again.

Get busy living or get busy dying.

bobbysands81

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Nonsense. A cushy safe job is not living unless you really find it interesting and rewarding. I would advise all young people to work in the private sector before going near the public service. I worked for 2 years in the county council....never again.

Get busy living or get busy dying.

Yes, because the one job that you had in the public service for a short period of time is indicative of the 305,000 jobs that are currently in the public service.

Ace2007

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

I've no real info on the ins and outs of internal promotion, but the new pension really is terrible in comparison. The calculations look very complex, but, basically:

- Previously you'd be entitled to half your FINAL salary after 40 years' service. So if you retire on the top of your scale at €60k, your pension was €30k.

- Now, however, you're entitled to half your CAREER AVERAGE salary after 40 years. This is a lot less.

In comparison the new pension isn't as attractive as the Final salary aspect, however when compared to a DC pension which the majority of private companies provide, the CARE scheme is pretty good.

Western Lowland Gorilla

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Nonsense. A cushy safe job is not living unless you really find it interesting and rewarding. I would advise all young people to work in the private sector before going near the public service. I worked for 2 years in the county council....never again.

Get busy living or get busy dying.

Don't forget that life can be lived outside of work also.

Bobby2004

I've worked 11 plus years in retail. 6 of which as a junior manager. I'm hopefully going to get placed as an EO soon. I'm in my mid 30s now and considering what I was doing before, this position is a blessing. I know the pension and benefits are not what they were but can't see myself in retail in my twilight years. I've invested in myself already and have just completed a level 8 in business management. Am I mad to think I can get to PO within 12 years.

HartsHat

Bobby2004 wrote: »

I've worked 11 plus years in retail. 6 of which as a junior manager. I'm hopefully going to get placed as an EO soon. I'm in my mid 30s now and considering what I was doing before, this position is a blessing. I know the pension and benefits are not what they were but can't see myself in retail in my twilight years. I've invested in myself already and have just completed a level 8 in business management. Am I mad to think I can get to PO within 12 years.

If you're exceptional/very good, that is achievable.

I've seen people go from EO to AP in 18 months.

tupenny

Then and than..

Bobby2004

Be taking a small pay cut for first 2 or 3 years but in the long run I'll be earning a lot more as an EO compared to what I pulling now. I work with Aldi but def can't do it any longer. Never worked a mon to Fri in my life but with a small family I think it will suit me. Hopefully can progress a couple of levels quickly.

wench

Bobby2004 wrote: »

I've worked 11 plus years in retail. 6 of which as a junior manager. I'm hopefully going to get placed as an EO soon. I'm in my mid 30s now and considering what I was doing before, this position is a blessing. I know the pension and benefits are not what they were but can't see myself in retail in my twilight years. I've invested in myself already and have just completed a level 8 in business management. Am I mad to think I can get to PO within 12 years.

It can be done, but a lot will depend on how the govt balances the books after Covid. If they do like in 2009 and don't fill retirements, it could take longer.

You'll need to keep an eye on the requirements/competencies for the next grade or two up from you, and always be angling towards meeting them.
So getting involved in any modernisation/reform/innovation projects going.
Then when it's complete and fresh in your mind, write up what you did in a STAR format, ready to drop into an application.

Will Yam

Deleted User wrote: »

yep. especially if relevant to the role applied for, generally still a good demonstration of initiative and a range of other desirables

*not sure where it ranks on NQF so cant answer if it suffices if requirement states and honours degree etc

It doesn’t rank on nfq.

Will Yam

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Nonsense. A cushy safe job is not living unless you really find it interesting and rewarding. I would advise all young people to work in the private sector before going near the public service. I worked for 2 years in the county council....never again.

Get busy living or get busy dying.

I’m not sure you can equate every ps job with a job in a county council.

I think if you went out to recruit on the basis of only dunderheads need apply, you might just get down to the level of the county councils.

LegacyUser

I grew up with **** all, with parents who had no assets, no social standing, and no useful contacts. All they had was an idea that their kids should keep their heads down and do alright at school, so that's what I did.

40 years ago I took a job in the civil service. I didn't take it because it was a handy number. I didn't take it for the "motivational" reasons we're all taught to spoof in interviews now. I sure as hell didn't take it to get rich or to enjoy myself.

I took it because it paid alright, and because it was a safe option for a working-class kid who needed to be sure where the next few quid was coming from. And every second Thursday they paid me. Sometimes the boom times were here and it was a decent enough wedge. Other times the taxpayers of Ireland were badly off and that reflected itself in my payslip. But it was a constant secure presence in my life.

I expected to be bored senseless, and sometimes in the early days I was. Not often, but sometimes. And sometimes I met the bureaucracy, the laziness and the time-serving I've seen described in this thread. But a lot of the time I got to do stuff that was interesting, and I got to work with people who were both hardworking and good fun to be around.

As the civil service that I worked in modernised itself, I found out that I was quite good at the job. Not good enough to fly up the ranks, but good enough to be trusted with stuff that mattered, and good enough to compete and get promoted to a senior level over the years. So I worked in a few different places, and I got to work on issues, deal with people, sort out problems and encounter situations that I never dreamed I would when I started out all those years ago.

I couldn't begin to describe the depth, importance or difficulty of the stuff I've done, or give a sense of the quality of the people with whom I've worked. And the people who work around me and for me aren't time-servers, box tickers or spreadsheet checkers; people like that wouldn't get on where I work, and they'd be no use to me if they did. And when you get to my level bureaucracy is what you make of it, to be honest.

I've seen some people come in from the commercial sector and do OK, but I've also seen as many if not more who just couldn't cope. The pressure is very different in the civil service, especially once you're in the line of sight of the political system. There's no point in coming up with a great line of defence (or attack) for your Minister if it's thirty seconds late.

I don't know what I would have made of myself in the private sector, but I know for sure that I would simply never have had the kind of experiences I had in the civil service. So with only a year or two to go, how would I sum it up? Interesting? Yep. Personally satisfying? Yep. And in fairness the lifestyle at my level isn't too shabby.

It's not for everyone. But it's worked for me. No regrets.

LegacyUser

Surprised to see this thread pop up as the original poster of it.

As an update I stuck in and through some hard work and luck progressed through the grades fast. I took on extra projects, seeked advice from senior colleagues on forms and interviews, practiced the tests and did some additional learning paid for by the jobs but in my own time. My initial Department was small but once out of it I got lucky with my next few roles and Departments.

Reading back on the original post I would say now that I'm in opposite situation, a lot of responsibility and a good amount of autonomy, very capable colleagues for the most part and in an area of the Civil Service where you don't see many of the lazy/difficult people I described. Negative is that you're also expected to work very hard and don't always get the support you'd might expect for what you deal with as a lot of institutional knowledge appears to be gone and you're somewhat thrown into the deep end.

AndrewJRenko

StayingUnreg wrote: »

I grew up with **** all, with parents who had no assets, no social standing, and no useful contacts. All they had was an idea that their kids should keep their heads down and do alright at school, so that's what I did.

40 years ago I took a job in the civil service. I didn't take it because it was a handy number. I didn't take it for the "motivational" reasons we're all taught to spoof in interviews now. I sure as hell didn't take it to get rich or to enjoy myself.

I took it because it paid alright, and because it was a safe option for a working-class kid who needed to be sure where the next few quid was coming from. And every second Thursday they paid me. Sometimes the boom times were here and it was a decent enough wedge. Other times the taxpayers of Ireland were badly off and that reflected itself in my payslip. But it was a constant secure presence in my life.

I expected to be bored senseless, and sometimes in the early days I was. Not often, but sometimes. And sometimes I met the bureaucracy, the laziness and the time-serving I've seen described in this thread. But a lot of the time I got to do stuff that was interesting, and I got to work with people who were both hardworking and good fun to be around.

As the civil service that I worked in modernised itself, I found out that I was quite good at the job. Not good enough to fly up the ranks, but good enough to be trusted with stuff that mattered, and good enough to compete and get promoted to a senior level over the years. So I worked in a few different places, and I got to work on issues, deal with people, sort out problems and encounter situations that I never dreamed I would when I started out all those years ago.

I couldn't begin to describe the depth, importance or difficulty of the stuff I've done, or give a sense of the quality of the people with whom I've worked. And the people who work around me and for me aren't time-servers, box tickers or spreadsheet checkers; people like that wouldn't get on where I work, and they'd be no use to me if they did. And when you get to my level bureaucracy is what you make of it, to be honest.

I've seen some people come in from the commercial sector and do OK, but I've also seen as many if not more who just couldn't cope. The pressure is very different in the civil service, especially once you're in the line of sight of the political system. There's no point in coming up with a great line of defence (or attack) for your Minister if it's thirty seconds late.

I don't know what I would have made of myself in the private sector, but I know for sure that I would simply never have had the kind of experiences I had in the civil service. So with only a year or two to go, how would I sum it up? Interesting? Yep. Personally satisfying? Yep. And in fairness the lifestyle at my level isn't too shabby.

It's not for everyone. But it's worked for me. No regrets.

Great story. In those days, third level was largely the preserve of the professional classes (those who's parents had gone to third level). The public service did a great job at taking in other people, who didn't have the privilege of a degree, and supporting them through development and education to reach their full potential.

I met many people from obvious working class backgrounds who had developed to senior levels and did great work.

LegacyUser

It's nice to read this thread and see I'm not alone. I got promoted to HEO about 2 years ago to a different department. Anyway there was an initial project I was working on that kept me quite busy and I learned a lot, but since that has been finished I have almost nothing to do most days. I am doing a BA at night and already have some qualifications, and I've been applying for more jobs. I did 2 interviews for another department but didn't get those jobs unfortunately, but I have another interview soon for a different department.

I have a specialist HEO role but my first project was outsourcing what I specialise, so now there's literally nothing for me to do and no one seems to address this.
It's just so ridiculous but nothing surprises me in the civil service any more.
I did work in a very busy department before this role, and honestly, your average CO would be busier and have more responsibility than the HEOs where I am not, possibly even APs.
I had a hard time dealing with stress in that job as an EO, and now the only stress I have is feeling absolutely useless.

I worked in private sector for years, there is no comparison. My AP during the summer had me sending meeting requests for meetings she would chair, this was all I did in the summer. It's just embarrassing and soul destroying.
There is no work to do in the place, I don't know why they hired me.

Anyway, I can't take it for much longer, so I'm trying to get on the mobility list, but no one can tell me if specialist roles are eligible for this, waiting for an answer from HR. I will continue applying for other jobs and if all else fails I am going to take a career break and just live on a beach for a year or something and hope I can be placed in a different department upon coming back. Failing that I've saved a fair bit of money so I will look for something in the private sector, before I'm completely unemployable.

I feel so bad getting a salary for nothing, but I really didn't ask to be put in this position. No one in the department seems to do any work. On top of splitting with my boyfriend since COVID came in, it's been a struggle and maybe slowed me down on getting out of this situation.

Have any other civil servants come out the other side of a situation like this? I see the OP is doing well now, that's great to hear.

Claw Hammer

StayingUnreg wrote: »

And every second Thursday they paid me. .

That's the trouble with the civil service. You get a good week's wage but you only get it every second week!

Will Yam

Sybil_Savant wrote: »

It's nice to read this thread and see I'm not alone. I got promoted to HEO about 2 years ago to a different department. Anyway there was an initial project I was working on that kept me quite busy and I learned a lot, but since that has been finished I have almost nothing to do most days. I am doing a BA at night and already have some qualifications, and I've been applying for more jobs. I did 2 interviews for another department but didn't get those jobs unfortunately, but I have another interview soon for a different department.

I have a specialist HEO role but my first project was outsourcing what I specialise, so now there's literally nothing for me to do and no one seems to address this.
It's just so ridiculous but nothing surprises me in the civil service any more.
I did work in a very busy department before this role, and honestly, your average CO would be busier and have more responsibility than the HEOs where I am not, possibly even APs.
I had a hard time dealing with stress in that job as an EO, and now the only stress I have is feeling absolutely useless.

I worked in private sector for years, there is no comparison. My AP during the summer had me sending meeting requests for meetings she would chair, this was all I did in the summer. It's just embarrassing and soul destroying.
There is no work to do in the place, I don't know why they hired me.

Anyway, I can't take it for much longer, so I'm trying to get on the mobility list, but no one can tell me if specialist roles are eligible for this, waiting for an answer from HR. I will continue applying for other jobs and if all else fails I am going to take a career break and just live on a beach for a year or something and hope I can be placed in a different department upon coming back. Failing that I've saved a fair bit of money so I will look for something in the private sector, before I'm completely unemployable.

I feel so bad getting a salary for nothing, but I really didn't ask to be put in this position. No one in the department seems to do any work. On top of splitting with my boyfriend since COVID came in, it's been a struggle and maybe slowed me down on getting out of this situation.

Have any other civil servants come out the other side of a situation like this? I see the OP is doing well now, that's great to hear.

I don’t know too much about the inner workings of the CS, but depending on your age (and I assume you are probably on the right side of 35), your choice should be determined by what you really want to do with your career. There are civil servants who wouldn’t last 5 minutes in the private sector and those in the private sector who wouldn’t last 5 mins in the CS.

The only advice I would give is that you don’t delay too long in deciding. Every month that goes by will make it a little bit harder to get on in the private sector.

Bear in mind the private sector can be precarious, your pension will probably be worse (unless you do very well), and other benefits will be worse (eg sick pay).

On the other hand you could do very well, and have a far more satisfying lifestyle.

It’s horses for courses really. I know I wouldn’t have lasted a week as a civil servant as I like the flexibility of the private sector and dislike the rigidity of the CS.

Even your comment about “waiting for HR” to respond about a straightforward query would put my teeth on edge. Why can’t they just say yes or no?

Anyway best of luck. Maybe try one of the private consulting companies or big accounting firms - they could use your outsourcing experience.

LegacyUser

Hi. I transferred on promotion last year, transferred location and department. My new department had a very strange culture, without going into detail I can’t see myself lasting much longer, I had 6+ years service before being promoted but at this point I’m nearly certain my only option will be to leave entirely. I have emailed HR in my original department enquiring if I reverted to my original grade could I revert to original department also. Has anyone any experience with this? I think it wouldn't be facilitated but I would rather find out before giving notice.