Ireland vs Wales 24th Feb 2:15

Buer

.ak wrote: »

Watching the game again, how did nobody notice the forward pass for Shingler's try? We were all calling for it in the stands but no pundit or player seemed to call it?

#conspiracy #jetfuelcantmeltsteelbeams #isthisasimulation

On first watch on television, it reminded me of the final play against France in 2014 when DK shot out and pressured a forward pass. This certainly wasn't as obvious but I thought it would be looked at, at least. I imagine it would still have been given on the basis of not really being clear/obvious but there was a definite whiff of forward pass from it.

kuang1

Buer wrote: »

On first watch on television, it reminded me of the final play against France in 2014 when DK shot out and pressured a forward pass. This certainly wasn't as obvious but I thought it would be looked at, at least. I imagine it would still have been given on the basis of not really being clear/obvious but there was a definite whiff of forward pass from it.

I was annoyed at the director because after that try was scored we weren't shown a replay of the original angle, which was in fact the best angle to figure out if it was forward or not.
I was hoping for the replays to force the ref to bring in the TMO like when Kearneys boot created a knock on that wasn't earlier in the game.

Bob Harris

Early in the match the other day Earls jumped to compete for a kick. The ball went forward off his hands and Wales got a penalty. It looked a fair challenge between both players and certainly not an intentional knock forward so why was a penalty awarded?

molloyjh

Bob Harris wrote: »

Early in the match the other day Earls jumped to compete for a kick. The ball went forward off his hands and Wales got a penalty. It looked a fair challenge between both players and certainly not an intentional knock forward so why was a penalty awarded?

Was that the one where Aki picked it up from an offside position? Therefore the penalty was against Aki and not Earls?

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Was that the one where Aki picked it up from an offside position? Therefore the penalty was against Aki and not Earls?

Yes, that's exactly what happened. Was just a very silly error from Aki.

Schorpio

Lads - just to weigh in on the Kearney debate.

I agree that many people are overly-critical of him, and that his performance on on Saturday was grand, bordering on good. However, I think that the level of criticism he gets is a reflection on where Irish rugby is at the moment.

We're playing at a level where we expect to be ranked among the best in the world. We reasonable anticipate beating most teams we play. With that comes the need for every player in every position to be viewed as being as amongst the best in the world.

If you look at 1 to 14, I think that we have personnel who live up to that. 15 is the one place we fall down a little. To be clear, I'm not critising Kearney, or saying that we have someone else we should be playing. But neither do I think he's playing at the same level as Hogg. And I think when the team is playing to such a high level, people's expectations naturally expect world-beaters in every position.

Buer

Yeah, that was the one. It was dense from Aki.

lawred2

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes, that's exactly what happened. Was just a very silly error from Aki.

was it clear to him that Earls had knocked it on?

Former Former

Schorpio wrote: »

Lads - just to weigh in on the Kearney debate.

I agree that many people are overly-critical of him, and that his performance on on Saturday was grand, bordering on good. However, I think that the level of criticism he gets is a reflection on where Irish rugby is at the moment.

We're playing at a level where we expect to be ranked among the best in the world. We reasonable anticipate beating most teams we play. With that comes the need for every player in every position to be viewed as being as amongst the best in the world.

If you look at 1 to 14, I think that we have personnel who live up to that. 15 is the one place we fall down a little. To be clear, I'm not critising Kearney, or saying that we have someone else we should be playing. But neither do I think he's playing at the same level as Hogg. And I think when the team is playing to such a high level, people's expectations naturally expect world-beaters in every position.

Whatever about Kearney, I'm not sure I'd be so enthusiastic about Hogg.

There was one moment for me that sticks out from Saturday; Scotland were 22-6 up but England were pressing hard. Scots forwards win a heroic turnover in their own 22, ball comes back to Hogg and instead of launching it 50 metres downfield, he tried a little chip and chase that went into an English hand and a couple of phases later, Farrell was skating through for a try and England were back in the game.

It was a ridiculous decision, poorly executed, at an absolutely critical time of the match. I wouldn't question Hogg's ability, but there are a lot of trade-offs with him.

pickarooney

sydthebeat wrote: »

The funniest thing about this post is that, apart from its obvious subjectivity from you..... Kearney was patently the second best this weekend of those named. Hogg was good, if sometimes suicidal in play. Brown was woeful, halfpenny was poor in both attacking and defending, and spedding, well he was benching in Clermont-Ferrands home loss against oyonnax....

The best full-back performance was probably Minozzi's for Italy.

Hugh_C

thomond2006 wrote: »

Sexton's most egregious error was taking the tap penalty when Ireland were seven ahead. Crazy stuff. I was roaring at the TV.

Don't know if it was covered on the TV but when that penalty was awarded, Murray went back deep into the Welsh 22 to retrieve the ball and wandered really slowly back towards the ref, I mentioned it to the fella I was sitting beside in the stand, and then all of a sudden Johnny taps the ball and came pretty close to the line. He was having a bad day at the tee, and it was opportunist in the extreme, but he came pretty close. Was it an error? I don't think so, it was a chance that didn't quite come off and Murray ended up getting banjaxed, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. If nothing else it was exciting

Synode

Hugh_C wrote: »

Don't know if it was covered on the TV but when that penalty was awarded, Murray went back deep into the Welsh 22 to retrieve the ball and wandered really slowly back towards the ref, I mentioned it to the fella I was sitting beside in the stand, and then all of a sudden Johnny taps the ball and came pretty close to the line. He was having a bad day at the tee, and it was opportunist in the extreme, but he came pretty close. Was it an error? I don't think so, it was a chance that didn't quite come off and Murray ended up getting banjaxed, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. If nothing else it was exciting

TV3 missed the tap and go live because they're absolutely dreadful

phog

Hugh_C wrote: »

Don't know if it was covered on the TV but when that penalty was awarded, Murray went back deep into the Welsh 22 to retrieve the ball and wandered really slowly back towards the ref, I mentioned it to the fella I was sitting beside in the stand, and then all of a sudden Johnny taps the ball and came pretty close to the line. He was having a bad day at the tee, and it was opportunist in the extreme, but he came pretty close. Was it an error? I don't think so, it was a chance that didn't quite come off and Murray ended up getting banjaxed, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. If nothing else it was exciting

Exciting for the fans but it realy was crazy decison, the game was too close to miss the opportunity of taking 3 points.

prawnsambo

phog wrote: »

Exciting for the fans but it realy was crazy decison, the game was too close to miss the opportunity of taking 3 points.

Joe actually spoke about that afterwards in the presser. He said that at half time, Jonny was saying that the Welsh were turning their backs when a penalty was given and he just told the team to 'be ready'. So he clearly had planned to take advantage of their belief that he'd kick to the corner or the posts.

molloyjh

phog wrote: »

Exciting for the fans but it realy was crazy decison, the game was too close to miss the opportunity of taking 3 points.

Those decisions live and die by the outcome. Had we gotten a try it would have been great play. Otherwise it was a mistake. As prawnsambo mentioned, Joe referred to it in the presser after. Sexton spotted an opportunity and went after it. He could have chosen a better time for it, but at the same time we want that level of ambition too.

the perfect ten

But he seemed to run diagonally for the corner rather than straight for the line. Those quick tap penalties are best used when on or very close to the 5 metre line - a la O'Gara against South Africa many years ago now.

prawnsambo

the perfect ten wrote: »

But he seemed to run diagonally for the corner rather than straight for the line. Those quick tap penalties are best used when on or very close to the 5 metre line - a la O'Gara against South Africa many years ago now.

I think the Welsh were walking back to the posts in preparation for a kick at goal. So the corner would have been unguarded. Going straight would have been straight at where the defence was.

prawnsambo

.ak wrote: »

Watching the game again, how did nobody notice the forward pass for Shingler's try? We were all calling for it in the stands but no pundit or player seemed to call it?

#conspiracy #jetfuelcantmeltsteelbeams #isthisasimulation

Shingler collected it about a pace forward from where it was delivered. I'd say it falls into the category of forward by momentum rather than passed forward. Shingler was about a pace behind Navidi? when he released it.

I was more annoyed at how little pace Aki and Leavy showed in chasing to the corner.

the perfect ten

the perfect ten wrote: »

But he seemed to run diagonally for the corner rather than straight for the line. Those quick tap penalties are best used when on or very close to the 5 metre line - a la O'Gara against South Africa many years ago now.

Reminded me of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBBMTvmzG6o

lawred2

Deleted User wrote: »

Reminded me of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBBMTvmzG6o

some intensity from Ireland there - didn't give England a second to get any shape

also I wonder would O Callaghan have been pinged for a high tackle these days?

Buer

He probably should have been pinged for it then! It was borderline at best.

Rala_

Kearney is solid, as solid a fullback as we'll get. He just doesn't have the pace anymore to defend the likes of Anthony Watson or Teddy Thomas. Really you need a gifted athlete at 15, tall and fast. Hard to find.

OldRio

Just a thought regarding the playbacks at Lansdowne Road. Who thought it was a good idea to show the Kearney 'knock on/kick out of hands' incident on the big screen?
Also I'm sure there was a forward pass for one of the Welsh tries. We saw lots of replays of the try but non from the original camera.

Wouldn't have happened in Twickenham or France that's for sure. Or perhaps we don't go in for such shenanigans. Or, the crafty Welsh infiltrated the Video Suite.

kuang1

Excellent post. Twas Shinglers try I think.

prawnsambo

kuang1 wrote: »

Excellent post. Twas Shinglers try I think.

It was. But I'd be very loathe to disallow that one for being forward. There was a metre in it and that could easily be accounted for by momentum.

I think I said this earlier, but I was more annoyed by Leavy abd Aki's chase back. Looked as though they were on half power.

penybont exile

penybont exile wrote: »

Well played Ireland. Boss the breakdown ... win the game.

Looking down the pitch behind Anscombe at the end the robbery was definitely on if the pass had gone to Tupuric or cleared Stockdale.

Haven't seen a TV re-run or read anything on here .... Will do so and be back for some banter.

So .... managed to catch the game on TV last night .... no change to my previous comment - best team won.

Looking at the game again however frustrated me no end. As good as Ireland were .... to a large extent we were really the architects of are own downfall.

Poor decision making:

Try 1 - Scott Williams [forward pass .... no need to throw it .... kick downfield as we did successfully on two later occasions in the first half ..... on one of those Scott should have passed it ... missed a two on one and a potential long range try] .... [Sexton/Stockdale was dubious - a la Navidi/Shingler]
Try 2 - Shingler [lazy .... @the ruck - cheap penalty to concede territory .... powerful / simple score]
Try 3 - Dan Biggar [wtf] .... coughed up possession ..... some good Ireland play to get behind us. Potential knock on the the lead up & Best taking out the defender as Leavy went over .... should have been TMO referred]
Try 4 - Moriarty [school boy error after stealing the line out]
Try 5 - Anscombe [intercept ..... no need to throw that pass .... Ireland all over the place]

Agree you could probably make similar list for the three wales tries ..... 60 pages of post on this thread so I won't.

Tactics were wrong we needed to keep the ball in hand a bit more. For all the fuss around Biggar [in Wales] he actually played OK other than pissing the referee off.


Other key moments ...

Davies knock on @27-20 ... we had worked ourselves into an excellent position with Ireland on the retreat.

Scrum penalty @27-20 .... sloppy in not ensuring the ball got to the back of the scrum prior to it disintegrating.


I guess my point is for all Ireland's possession .... and very effective huff & puff ... for three out of the first four tries it was sloppy play that handed you the golden goose of field position. [.... and that is not including Biggar coughing the ball up]. They were all unforced and not errors we normally make .... hence we conceded four tries and lost control of the scoreboard.

If anybody said to me before the game that Wales would score 27 points and Sexton would be less than 50% from the tee I would have taken it!


Overall I'm not too disheartened .... we showed a lot of skill when we had the ball. This is the way we need to play for the next 18 months. If we can improve on it we'll be a handful at the next WC.

Fore Ireland Sexton was superb .... Murray excellent as was Earls. Pack excellent ... no real stand outs - all did their job. Finally .... Best - very annoying [goes off his feet over the rucks a lot ... might get pinged by another referee].

.ak

Good analysis PE. Thought Wales were a bit slow to start, never looked too worried in the 2nd half and was convinced we could march up the field whenever we had ball without too much effort. Wales seemed to switch on after the break and make a real match of it, along with our poor defending which has been highlighted but Wales really turned on the attack in the 2nd half and we struggled with it. Kinda makes me think Gats got the selection wrong.

Couple of things I'd disagree with tho... Whilst there's a case the Leavy try should've gone to TMO there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Best binds onto Leavy from behind the ball and Biggar just tries to take Best out, he's doing nothing illegal here because he's behind the ball at point of contact. Second point is I think Anscombe was right to throw that pass. Had he put legs on it we'd be in serious trouble, especially if Stockdale went to attack the space, because he'd be in no mans land with only James Ryan and another pack player corner flagging. Now, lots of space there and of guarantee of anything as we had pretty fit guys covering across anyway, but you'd have to think there was a great chance of getting atleast into the 22 from there had it gone to hand. If it was passed through the hands the entire pack were pushing left and would've shepered them into touch.

penybont exile

Not overly critical of Anscombe. He went for the high risk option which as you say if it had hit its man would more than likely have won the match. I was looking down the pitch behind this .... there was a lot of space. The less risky option would have got us well up the pitch .... you never know from then.

Split second decisions .... it was sloppiness earlier in the game though that cost us!

Anyway life goes on ....

Interesting one for me is that Ireland seem happy to concede the wider channels when they haven't got the ball. Almost challenging their opponents to get there and take advantage of it. This has been evident for the last three years .... I'm not convinced they are serious about fixing it which might be their achilles heel in some future important game.

.ak

Well you could say it already cost us a World Cup semi final spot, so I reckon the coaching staff are serious about it.

If you were to be a little bit more analytical about it though I'd wager you'd find very different reasons why we look weak in the wider channels then vs now.

penybont exile

.ak wrote: »

Well you could say it already cost us a World Cup semi final spot, so I reckon the coaching staff are serious about it.

If you were to be a little bit more analytical about it though I'd wager you'd find very different reasons why we look weak in the wider channels then vs now.

Not serious enough IMO ..... [two years ago I can remember Scott Baldwin being in the exact same position as Josh Navidi on Saturday ..... different outcome because he dropped the pass].

Cut to brass tacks ... you have 15 pieces to place efficiently on a board opposite 15 other pieces coming at you. What you gain by putting your pieces in position X you lose by not having them in position Y.

Maybe JS feels the gains outweigh the losses .... and maybe he's right.

IMO the individual defensive misreads etc. happen because the defence is stressed in those outside channels. A 2 on 2 [if there is plenty of space] is a dangerous situation for the defending team.

Different strokes for different folks .... the inside ball, or the short pass out the back with runners fixing our outside defence caused Wales problems on Saturday. The scramble defence is more likely to get to that type of play though.

sydthebeat

Our defensive problems out wide are due to us having a physical and aggressive scrum half, in my opinion.

Quite often a defending team will play with the scrum half as a sweeper which allows the full back to cover out wider, and thus join the line quicker when needed.

We play with a 13 man line where Murray is quite often front and central in tackling big ball carriers. Our wingers have to pendulum quite deep in field, and our full back has to cover the full width of the field, often at the speed of a passing ball. This defensive line is great at withholding sustained attacks in a fold, or straight up. And, maintaining our discipline, we wait for the attacking team to make mistakes or we flood a rock and turn the ball over. This is done at a sacrifice of leaving space of wide.

Its something that is easily fixed however, you just add an extra player into the back field.

That in turn though leaves us a man short in the line, and farrell doesn't seem to want to do that. I wonder, with may and Watson being such speedsters and OF as a second play maker, will we see a change to our system against England??

prawnsambo

sydthebeat wrote: »

Its something that is easily fixed however, you just add an extra player into the back field.

That in turn though leaves us a man short in the line, and farrell doesn't seem to want to do that. I wonder, with may and Watson being such speedsters and OF as a second play maker, will we see a change to our system against England??

I think it's supposed to transition to a drift if the ball goes wide. So you should have players folding around the ruck and pushing out with the ball. Or cutting back towards the corner to intercept the break if it comes. I was a bit annoyed that Leavy and Aki, who were in a position to cover back, didn't seem too urgent about it for Shingler's try.

sydthebeat

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think it's supposed to transition to a drift if the ball goes wide. So you should have players folding around the ruck and pushing out with the ball. Or cutting back towards the corner to intercept the break if it comes. I was a bit annoyed that Leavy and Aki, who were in a position to cover back, didn't seem too urgent about it for Shingler's try.

Agreed, it's an issue that's coming from in field from what I can see. Probably due to players not used to playing with each other that often and being stuck in their defensive plan, rather than reacting to what's happening in front of them and trusting who's inside.
I know ringrose is still very young, but he has a knack of seeing what's going to happen and reacts quickly. I think he would bolster our defense against these incidents.

It really shows though how much area Kearney has to cover during a game, and I wouldnt be at all surprised if, at the end of the tournament, he has covered the most ground of any player.

awec

The ease with which Wales created overlaps out wide is what concerns me the most with England. Stockdale's intercept for example, last play of the game and Ireland must have realised they just had to concentrate for another few minutes and still Wales created a 3 on 1 with little effort off only a few phases of play.

awec

awec wrote: »

The ease with which Wales created overlaps out wide is what concerns me the most with England. Stockdale's intercept for example, last play of the game and Ireland must have realised they just had to concentrate for another few minutes and still Wales created a 3 on 1 with little effort off only a few phases of play.

They didn't though. That was a massive hail Mary to get around us. Had they garryowened into our 22 it would have had a marginally slimmer chance of producing a score.

irishbucsfan

Wales' last possession was extremely frustrating to watch. We were consistently over-committing into defensive rucks when there was absolutely no need. It was extremely naive from some of the players. We should have stayed away from the defensive ruck and had players getting straight back to their feet and straight back into the defensive line. Luckily Wales ultimately threw it away, literally, but we should have had much more coverage from guys who were missing in the line. The Lions down in New Zealand showed absolutely perfectly (possibly better than any team I've ever seen) exactly how to play this.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Wales' last possession was extremely frustrating to watch. We were consistently over-committing into defensive rucks when there was absolutely no need. It was extremely naive from some of the players. We should have stayed away from the defensive ruck and had players getting straight back to their feet and straight back into the defensive line. Luckily Wales ultimately threw it away, literally, but we should have had much more coverage from guys who were missing in the line. The Lions down in New Zealand showed absolutely perfectly (possibly better than any team I've ever seen) exactly how to play this.

Same defence coach too which further convinces me that this is a communication/leadership issue on the field. Which probably shouldn't be too much of a surprise with the inexperience in certain areas at that stage of the game.