Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Solar PV - is it worth it?

1235

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,881 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Latro wrote: »
    I dunno, I'm not convinced at all.

    From top of my head it looks like you invest 3-4k euro into installation to save 250-300 euro a year.

    Yep your figures are about ballpark. 12-14 years payback. Before the subsidy and the very recent price drops of panels it was more like 20 years payback

    DIY (without any subsidies) you can do it for well under 10 years payback

    (this is not taking account of opportunity costs of money, interest but also not of possible electricity / fuel price increases. Also it is quite likely overproduction can be monetised at some point in future)

    Obviously after payback time, you have a yearly saving that will last for as long as you live in the house. It's a long time decision and also it is not 100% about money :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,591 ✭✭✭py


    Anyone compared figures on DIY vs contractor install and willing to share?


  • Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭eire1987


    Latro wrote: »
    What will be your main source of heat?

    Our site is in a very sunny spot. So obviously solar we be our main source. Well we think... we are also looking at the hone system. However not sure about thst. Although we were offered to stay overnight by the company to check their system... So they may be genuine


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    eire1987 wrote: »
    Our site is in a very sunny spot. So obviously solar we be our main source. Well we think... we are also looking at the hone system. However not sure about thst. Although we were offered to stay overnight by the company to check their system... So they may be genuine




    Really if new build if putting in heating you should be using geothermal heating.



    Also if you include in the plans and get as part of the build then it should work out a lot cheaper than what you are saying....sure the electrician will wire it in with the rest of the house


    The plumber can run the pipes when doing house.....a hell of a lot cheaper than a retro fit


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 221 ✭✭Latro


    eire1987 wrote: »
    Our site is in a very sunny spot. So obviously solar we be our main source. Well we think... we are also looking at the hone system. However not sure about thst. Although we were offered to stay overnight by the company to check their system... So they may be genuine


    I'm very skeptical about using any form of light to heat any house, even the best insulated one. In the winter the more heat you need the less light you get.

    It is like having solar torch. It would work great in the sun when you don't need the light. Same with solar heating, maybe it would work in the summer but you dont't need the heat then.

    Oh well, I don't have any experience with the system you mentioned so I can't give any valuable advice about it but it seems to be a bit tweaked evacuated solar tubes. As I said earlier, I'm skeptical.
    If you decide to go with them please report back in the future.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    py wrote: »
    Anyone compared figures on DIY vs contractor install and willing to share?

    DIY is fun ,challenging and tricky.Cheaper,yes.
    In order to get the grant,you will need to be signed off by an approved SEAI installer.

    I'll say differences in price can be around 23-50% overall.
    Ive been quoted €1,700 ex VAT to install panels on the roof.
    Done with neighbour,cash and few "thanks" with a black foamy fresh liquid.

    Quality of the finished installation,i can say is at the same level if not better, as i chose the products that i felt are premium and not the ones that supplier made more margins or not stocking them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    eire1987 wrote: »
    Our site is in a very sunny spot. So obviously solar we be our main source. Well we think... we are also looking at the hone system. However not sure about thst. Although we were offered to stay overnight by the company to check their system... So they may be genuine

    I'll go with the best insulation available on the market today.
    Insulate with a 100-200 mm and make it sound proof / water tight / airtight up to being a "passive maniac".

    Once you have a closed container / framework,get a heat recovery ventilation.

    Then,heating it and retaing that heat it will be your last problem...the smaller heat pump or boiler or radiator/underfloor heating systems combination with a nice multizoned automated controls ... will have to work very small / low energy transformation to get a temperature boost from a nice constant 15ish to 20ish.

    Next,subject to budget,i will go with few solar tubes for hot water and PVs for electricity.IF budget tight,go for PVs and diverter.

    Any decision,enjoy the adventure of self build...i envy you ! :)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,976 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    I’ve only used 12 units since April myself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,881 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    rolion wrote: »
    DIY is fun ,challenging and tricky.

    +1

    I am far from a handyman, far from a natural DIY guy. But I got it done.
    rolion wrote: »
    Done with neighbour,cash and few "thanks" with a black foamy fresh liquid.

    Same here. Did my first DIY PV install on my wooden garden shed together with handy neighbour who is in the trade and if I'm honest he did most of the work - gave him a few bottles of his very favourite wine. That was a DIY install that looks DIY

    My next DIY PV install was on my kitchen extension roof. It was done to at least professional standards with high quality materials, all by myself with zero help from anyone. The sense of achievement / pride I got from that is worth more to me than the money I saved by doing it myself :)


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 800 ✭✭✭niallers1


    unkel wrote: »
    +1


    My next DIY PV install was on my kitchen extension roof. It was done to at least professional standards with high quality materials, all by myself with zero help from anyone.


    How did it get hooked up to work with your house?


  • Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭eire1987


    Latro wrote: »
    I'm very skeptical about using any form of light to heat any house, even the best insulated one. In the winter the more heat you need the less light you get.

    It is like having solar torch. It would work great in the sun when you don't need the light. Same with solar heating, maybe it would work in the summer but you dont't need the heat then.

    Oh well, I don't have any experience with the system you mentioned so I can't give any valuable advice about it but it seems to be a bit tweaked evacuated solar tubes. As I said earlier, I'm skeptical.
    If you decide to go with them please report back in the future.


    Will do


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,552 ✭✭✭denismc


    To those of you suggesting diy are you electricians? as connecting an inverter and installing a new RCB to you fuse box is a probably a bit more than the average diy-er should attempt.
    Also I would have thought installing an RCB and new circuit would require a registered RECI legally.
    Not trying to be a killjoy, just a genuine question.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    denismc wrote: »
    To those of you suggesting diy are you electricians? as connecting an inverter and installing a new RCB to you fuse box is a probably a bit more than the average diy-er should attempt.
    Also I would have thought installing an RCB and new circuit would require a registered RECI legally.
    Not trying to be a killjoy, just a genuine question.




    Electrician would have to install....But I plan to do all the roof work etc. Putting on the panels and then just have the electrician do the final 5%


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,881 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    +1

    I would do almost all myself, but I would not open my consumer unit for any reason.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 354 ✭✭AndrewMc


    Not sure if this has been answered already - are you still liable for the Low Usage Standing Charge if you get your PV setup gets your grid usage low enough?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 800 ✭✭✭niallers1


    If you get your usage that low then yes.
    The chances of being able to get that low would be low. Even at night when asleep you'll probably use a unit of electricity from fridge/ alarm / other appliances not fully switched off at plug.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 354 ✭✭AndrewMc


    niallers1 wrote: »
    If you get your usage that low then yes.
    The chances if being able to get that low would be low. Even at night when asleep you'll probably use a unit of electricity from fridge/ alarm / other appliances not fully switched off at plug.

    Our normal usage is about 6 kWh/day, maybe 7 in winter. When we're away it's 2. The low usage charge kicks in when you average below two. That's disappointing, I'd at least have thought you'd get an exemption when they're taking your excess solar energy for free.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,147 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    I think your own logic is flawed Kcross :p



    True. At the moment. But with any investment, you need to look at the lifespan of the investment. Yes you might waste a few years of overproduction to the grid. You know I'm no fan of immersion diverters. But if you have a 4kwp system, they do begin to make sense. And what makes even more sense is to charge your EV. I know that is only worth 7c/kWh as you could charge your car at night, but it is like getting a 7c FIT. And then there is all this talk about a current utility company already paying a 6c FIT. And it is of course possible the state will implement a FIT to encourage the accelerated move to higher renewables. The longer view is that if you have a 40kWh home attached battery in say 5 years time, you won't have to pay any electricity at the higher rate anymore. In fact some people would no longer need to buy any electricity for say 250-300 days of the year :cool:

    I've moved my reply over to this thread as I realised I was derailing the "quote" thread and this thread is better suited for the topic anyway(are batteries worth it)

    I think you've argued against yourself there unkel.
    If a FiT comes in (which I think is likely in the med-long term) it makes the case for batteries even less financially viable.

    If you have a FiT then the battery is no longer displacing full day rate electricity. Its only displacing the difference between day rate and the FiT rate. The payback time will almost double in that case.

    A FiT makes the need for batteries null and void. The grid is your battery and that is exactly what should happen if ESB Networks would allow it.

    unkel wrote: »
    But it makes sense now to benefit from the very generous €3,800 subsidy while still keeping your own spend to a minimum. This will to a large extend future proof your system, you'll only need to add batteries at some point, an easy job

    Its a generous subsidy alright but generous doesn't necessarily mean it makes financial sense. I think it makes sense to install PV with the current grant but I don't think the batteries make sense.

    Have you calculated any ROI yourself for the battery. What figures did you come up with? Please share.

    I'm not fully sold on the future proof idea either even though I see some merit in it.
    In, say, 10yrs time there will be better inverters and better batteries that might not be compatible with the battery you install today. So, it may not be a simple plug 'n play of a new module down the line. It might all be fine too but I'm not for taking the risk based on how new the market is.

    For instance, can you simply add a new battery alongside a degraded battery? Will the inverter handle the imbalance? I dont know.

    Are you tying yourself to one battery make/model and hoping that that is still on the market when you decide to expand.

    Current batteries are primarily Li-ion. As we know from the EV forum there are likely to be new battery techs coming to the market in the next 5-10yrs (Solid state batteries are looking promising). Will you want to expand your degrading Li-ion "old tech" battery if there are new solid state systems going for less money, higher capacity, less degradation?


    But primarily I'm not sold on the batteries because the payback is too long. It needs to be 10yrs or less, imo. It's closer to 20.

    What payback time do you put it at? If we are in the same ball park then maybe we are on the same page just that you are willing to wait that long and Im not... which is entirely a personal decision.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 800 ✭✭✭niallers1


    AndrewMc wrote: »
    niallers1 wrote: »
    If you get your usage that low then yes.
    The chances if being able to get that low would be low. Even at night when asleep you'll probably use a unit of electricity from fridge/ alarm / other appliances not fully switched off at plug.

    Our normal usage is about 6 kWh/day, maybe 7 in winter. When we're away it's 2. The low usage charge kicks in when you average below two. That's disappointing, I'd at least have thought you'd get an exemption when they're taking your excess solar energy for free.

    6kw/7kwh a day is very good. Fair play.
    I presume you have LED lights / LED TV and switch off appliances as much as possible.
    Do you have any tips to get that low? Best we can manage is an average of 9kw per day over the year.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 354 ✭✭AndrewMc


    niallers1 wrote: »
    6kw/7kwh a day is very good. Fair play.
    I presume you have LED lights / LED TV and switch off appliances as much as possible.
    Do you have any tips to get that low? Best we can manage is an average of 9kw per day over the year.

    Yes, all LEDs now except the last few surviving CFLs. Telly is about ten years old but we don't watch all that much. Switch everything off at the wall. A-rated washer and dryer.

    Biggest difference is probably that we've mains gas for heating, oven and hob, and usually use the regular shower (heated by the central heating) rather than the electric. Gas is about a third the price per kWh compared to electric, iirc. In summer it's working out about 6kWh of gas per day for hot water and cooking.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,881 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    KCross wrote: »
    Have you calculated any ROI yourself for the battery. What figures did you come up with?

    You're missing the point, there is no need to do a ROI calculation!

    Neither of us know the future but it is almost certain batteries will become so cheap that installing large batteries will become the norm. And I very much doubt that todays inverters and batteries will be incompatible with the ones being sold in 3-4 years time. That wouldn't make any sense. An inverter is an inverter and a battery is a battery.

    If you accept that, it might be a good idea if you are installing PV anyway, to make sure the system can handle a battery, given that you get a €2,400 subsidy for it. It is smart to use the cheapest battery possible because as you say, the ROI on them is bad :p

    The €2,400 will pay for the battery, for the extra cost of the inverter and for the install. It is free. And your system is future proof


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,147 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    You're missing the point, there is no need to do a ROI calculation!

    If you accept that, it might be a good idea if you are installing PV anyway, to make sure the system can handle a battery, given that you get a €2,400 subsidy for it. It is smart to use the cheapest battery possible because as you say, the ROI on them is bad :p

    The €2,400 will pay for the battery, for the extra cost of the inverter and for the install. It is free. And your system is future proof

    I am definitely missing something if you think the battery is free! Explain that to me.
    The grant for the battery is €1000. Why do you think its €2400 and hence free.
    You can't allocate the grant for the panels against the battery. Thats man maths! :)

    No matter what way you work it your quote will include a battery (€1350), labour (€300) and increased inverter costs (~€800-1000). Thats €2450 inc vat inc install. Less grant so thats €1450 net cost to you for a 2.4kWh battery. Thats what is in my quotes.

    Show me a quote where a battery system is less than that?
    You will be 15-20yrs breaking even on that €1500. Link


    unkel wrote: »
    Neither of us know the future but it is almost certain batteries will become so cheap that installing large batteries will become the norm. And I very much doubt that todays inverters and batteries will be incompatible with the ones being sold in 3-4 years time. That wouldn't make any sense. An inverter is an inverter and a battery is a battery.

    I've heard otherwise. At least one company told me that the inverter was compatible with one battery and not another. I didn't delve into the detail of that. Maybe its BS but I can't see why they would need to make that up. I will ask more questions on that one.




    You also didnt address my point about the FiT making the payback term even longer and you seemed to be putting FiT forward as a reason to add batteries which makes no sense. If you think FiT is possible in the near term it makes spending money on batteries now a bad investment. Do you agree or disagree that FiT would make having a battery a waste of money?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,881 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    I agree batteries are a complete waste of your money right now. And I did state that you should only go for the battery if you are going to install PV anyway under the SEAI scheme. The extra cost of installing 14 panels (4kwp) over 7 panels (2kwp) is 7 panels * EUR148 plus say €300 in additional materials and labour. I've been there myself. Once you're on the roof, you're on the roof. A few more hooks and a few more rails and a few more clamps makes very little difference in your effort.

    So €1450 plus VAT. But you get €1400 subsidy for this. But you have to get the battery, so get the cheapest 2.4kWh one for €950. If you accept that you will eventually go battery, you will have to pay for the hybrid converter at some point. So the cost of that isn't relevant in the calculations (and even if they do come down in value, it is probably easier to install a hybrid one now rather than a conventional one now only to have to change in a few years, get the sparks back in, try to sell your out of date conventional inverter that's almost worthless, etc). So going the extra 2kwp costs about €400 incl VAT and going the battery costs about €500 incl VAT.

    Look, no matter what way you rig the sums, you'd be insane to install a 2kwp system under this subsidy regime. Either do a cheaper install using your own installer or DIY and your own parts (nothing to do with SEAI), but if you are going the subsidy route, the optimal choice is 4kwp plus tiny battery


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,147 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    I agree batteries are a complete waste of your money right now. And I did state that you should only go for the battery if you are going to install PV anyway under the SEAI scheme. The extra cost of installing 14 panels (4kwp) over 7 panels (2kwp) is 7 panels * EUR148 plus say €300 in additional materials and labour. I've been there myself. Once you're on the roof, you're on the roof. A few more hooks and a few more rails and a few more clamps makes very little difference in your effort.

    Indeed, but it won't be you on the roof. It has to be a certified installer approved by the SEAI. DIY jobs mean you don't get the grant.

    As I also showed in the other thread the panels and labour costs being quoted are not like you suggest above. You need to use real world numbers not direct labour DIY figures.

    unkel wrote: »
    So €1450 plus VAT. But you get €1400 subsidy for this. But you have to get the battery, so get the cheapest 2.4kWh one for €950. If you accept that you will eventually go battery, you will have to pay for the hybrid converter at some point.

    If you decide you are going battery anyway you are ruling out FiT for the lifetime of the system. Thats a personal decision but a bad one imo.

    And I think your €950 for the battery is a DIY ex vat price again? It certainly isn't matching up with the certified installer quotes I have.

    And where is the battery install labour cost in your figures? I've been quoted €300 for that.

    unkel wrote: »
    So the cost of that isn't relevant in the calculations (and even if they do come down in value, it is probably easier to install a hybrid one now rather than a conventional one now only to have to change in a few years, get the sparks back in, try to sell your out of date conventional inverter that's almost worthless, etc). So going the extra 2kwp costs about €400 incl VAT and going the battery costs about €500 incl VAT.

    Can you show your calculations for the €500? At least your are not saying its free anymore but its still not accurate imo based on the quotes I have.

    One installer has told me they do buy back inverters but I agree they are likely to give you pittance for it anyway as it would have only been a few hundred new so I get that point. If you are hell bent on getting batteries at some point in the future then yes, I agree with you, you should do 4kWp now and the cheapest battery you can. However, you need to be doing it for non-financial reasons (environment, off-grid, power outage backup, etc) at the moment as the quotes I have don't have a reasonable payback for batteries.


    I need to ask more questions about hybrid inverter compatibility though as it has been mentioned as an issue. Hybrid inverters are still considered new tech. They are around a good few years but its still relatively new. Think of them like EV's... around nearly 10yrs but still evolving fast.

    unkel wrote: »
    Look, no matter what way you rig the sums, you'd be insane to install a 2kwp system under this subsidy regime. Either do a cheaper install using your own installer or DIY and your own parts (nothing to do with SEAI), but if you are going the subsidy route, the optimal choice is 4kwp plus tiny battery

    A 2kWp peak system could also work if you can self consume a high percentage of it. I've looked at my consumption and it can work with reasonable payback but you need high daytime consumption(which I have). It won't work for a lot of people (e.g. Two people out working all day).

    The 4kWp with tiny battery I'd agree with, if the price of the battery/inverter dropped in price.... maybe another €700 or so.

    Buying now means the grant is just subsidising an expensive battery and still leaving you with a very long payback. If the battery came down in price it would just about make sense with the grant covering the cost of the hybrid inverter.



    Are you going to put in a battery yourself? I look forward to hearing about your battery install, costs and savings! :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭NickSantigo


    Guys,
    Has anyone put in Solar PV with Electric Ireland
    They are doing the following:
    1.8 kilowatt installation with diverter for hot water which costs €4490.00 will be eligible for a grant of €1260.00, The Net Cost to homeowner will be €3230.0

    You can then do use the HRI to get a further 13.5% off the 3230

    I have recently moved into a 1970s bungalow that is 1500sq feet. The is ofch which also needs to be upgraded. I am thinking of going for the above offer and would be interested to hear from anyone who has gone with Electric Ireland


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,552 ✭✭✭denismc


    Guys,
    Has anyone put in Solar PV with Electric Ireland
    They are doing the following:
    1.8 kilowatt installation with diverter for hot water which costs €4490.00 will be eligible for a grant of €1260.00, The Net Cost to homeowner will be €3230.0

    You can then do use the HRI to get a further 13.5% off the 3230

    I have recently moved into a 1970s bungalow that is 1500sq feet. The is ofch which also needs to be upgraded. I am thinking of going for the above offer and would be interested to hear from anyone who has gone with Electric Ireland

    Thats not to bad,
    I got 2.08kw installed in April (before the grant) for around 3200 from a private company.

    The only thing I would say is, with 1.8 kw you won't have a huge surplus for your diverter especially in Winter, is there an option to get the installation without the diverter?


  • Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭NickSantigo


    I had a read of this paper:
    https://www.ucd.ie/t4cms/UCD_Financial%20Performance%20of%20Residential%20PV_with%20figs_revised.pdf

    Looking at it I have accepted I won't get a lot from it in Nov, Dec and Jan but I'm hoping the shoulder months and the summer it will help with my hot water demands. In the winter the OFCH will be heating the water anyway so I should have hot water all year round between the two


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Your best value for money in the 1970s house is insulation and air tightness. If you can save a tank of oil per year, that's €700.
    If finance isn't a limiting factor, do everything you can under the HRI and get the vat back. I think that closes the end of the year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭NickSantigo


    Water John wrote: »
    Your best value for money in the 1970s house is insulation and air tightness. If you can save a tank of oil per year, that's €700.
    If finance isn't a limiting factor, do everything you can under the HRI and get the vat back. I think that closes the end of the year.

    I have to agree. The plan is as follows:
    Upgrade attic insulation (walls have already been pumped)
    Upgrade Oil Boiler, hot water cylinder and add Rad Controls
    Install Solar PV
    Install MHRV as there are no vents in any of the rooms

    There are already double glazed windows, a conservatory, two stoves and a porch so not sure what else I can do to achieve a better air tightness tbh


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭gunnerfitzy


    Guys,
    Has anyone put in Solar PV with Electric Ireland
    They are doing the following:
    1.8 kilowatt installation with diverter for hot water which costs €4490.00 will be eligible for a grant of €1260.00, The Net Cost to homeowner will be €3230.0

    You can then do use the HRI to get a further 13.5% off the 3230

    I have recently moved into a 1970s bungalow that is 1500sq feet. The is ofch which also needs to be upgraded. I am thinking of going for the above offer and would be interested to hear from anyone who has gone with Electric Ireland

    In relation to the HRI, note that if you receive a grant for qualifying work then the total qualifying expenditure will be reduced by three times the grant amount.

    In all likelihood, you will not be eligible for HRI if you avail of the Solar PV grant.

    https://www.revenue.ie/en/property/home-renovation-incentive/hri-for-homeowners-and-landlords/value-of-the-hri-tax-credit.aspx


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    I had a read of this paper:
    https://www.ucd.ie/t4cms/UCD_Financial%20Performance%20of%20Residential%20PV_with%20figs_revised.pdf

    Looking at it I have accepted I won't get a lot from it in Nov, Dec and Jan but I'm hoping the shoulder months and the summer it will help with my hot water demands. In the winter the OFCH will be heating the water anyway so I should have hot water all year round between the two

    Subject to your location and PV setup...winter could be a nice keeper warmer for the inverter.

    My DIY 5Kw installed power report for past 12 months:
    August: 468
    September: 385
    Octomber: 215
    November: 151
    December: 77
    January: 108
    February: 231
    March: 282

    459551.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,147 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    @rolion, for reference, what kWp is that graph for?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,881 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    KCross wrote: »
    Indeed, but it won't be you on the roof. It has to be a certified installer approved by the SEAI. DIY jobs mean you don't get the grant.

    As I also showed in the other thread the panels and labour costs being quoted are not like you suggest above. You need to use real world numbers not direct labour DIY figures.

    I used panel prices available to the public, in a detailed quote from an installer I would comment if they (who can get trade discount) would charge me more than public prices

    And I did include labour - that was the 300 I mentioned for the additional 7 panels. Less than 2 man hours work at 50 per hour plus 200 in additional materials
    KCross wrote: »
    And I think your €950 for the battery is a DIY ex vat price again? It certainly isn't matching up with the certified installer quotes I have.

    And where is the battery install labour cost in your figures? I've been quoted €300 for that.

    Can you show your calculations for the €500?

    950 again is price available to the public plus 300 install charge = 1250 + 23% VAT -/- 1000 subsidy is roughly 500. And remember you only get the extremely generous extra 1400 on top of this 1000 when you install the battery in a 4kwp system
    KCross wrote: »
    Are you going to put in a battery yourself? I look forward to hearing about your battery install, costs and savings! :)

    If I had no solar PV at all and I had space for 14 panels and I got PP for it, then yes I would go 14 panels + cheapest battery. Best bang for your buck as I have already demonstrated

    But unfortunately I don't have the space on my roof as I already have my attic converted, so 3 large velux windows and I have solar thermal and I already have PV. I have space for maximum 5 panels left, which from a subsidy point of view would make no sense to do anything under the SEAI scheme :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,147 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    I used panel prices available to the public, in a detailed quote from an installer I would comment if they (who can get trade discount) would charge me more than public prices

    And I did include labour - that was the 300 I mentioned for the additional 7 panels. Less than 2 man hours work at 50 per hour plus 200 in additional materials

    950 again is price available to the public plus 300 install charge = 1250 + 23% VAT -/- 1000 subsidy is roughly 500. And remember you only get the extremely generous extra 1400 on top of this 1000 when you install the battery in a 4kwp system

    The public prices don't count. Its the prices from SEAI registered installers that count.

    Is "your guy" an SEAI registered installer?

    The PylonTech 2.4kWh battery I've seen in more than one quote was €1200+Vat plus €300+Vat install cost. And then the hybrid inverter on top of that.

    unkel wrote: »
    If I had no solar PV at all and I had space for 14 panels and I got PP for it, then yes I would go 14 panels + cheapest battery. Best bang for your buck as I have already demonstrated

    We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think you've demonstrated it at all, at least not to me! :)

    unkel wrote: »
    But unfortunately I don't have the space on my roof as I already have my attic converted, so 3 large velux windows and I have solar thermal and I already have PV. I have space for maximum 5 panels left, which from a subsidy point of view would make no sense to do anything under the SEAI scheme :(

    Sit tight and wait for FiT and then add the 5 extra panels yourself for less than the cost of a battery and save yourself the batteries and hybrid inverter costs. You'll agree with me yet in time! :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,137 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    What makes you think people can't self install. There's people in this thread that have done it.

    Just because you don't have the skills doesn't mean others don't.

    I wouldn't come across as so smug as that's the way it's appearing.

    Of course it would work out cheaper for a self install and self purchase. You just need to be skilled.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,147 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Who is that directed at @listermint?
    Im all for self-install. Don't think I said otherwise.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,881 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    KCross wrote: »
    Sit tight and wait for FiT and then add the 5 extra panels yourself for less than the cost of a battery and save yourself the batteries and hybrid inverter costs. You'll agree with me yet in time! :D

    We agree already on me not getting a battery in the next few years (FIT or not) and there is no chance I'd go up on the roof of my house unless it was an emergency :D

    Several people including yourself have had quotes of around €7k incl VAT after the grant for a 4kwp with 4.8kWh battery. Surely any installer doing that would do €6k for 4kwp with 2.4kWh battery as that would give them the same profit. If I hadn't anything yet, that's what I would go for

    The €3,800 subsidy on that system is just insanely generous. Buying the parts and installing it yourself would cost more even with inflated parts prices and rip off install costs the ESAI approved installers charge you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 800 ✭✭✭niallers1


    You might be able to D.I.Y. cheaper but I'd pay the extra to get a professional to do it and take the risk of working at height.

    The grant takes alot of the cost away for people ( majority) who will never attempt the install themselves.
    Without grant I would not get solar
    With grant I will.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 168 ✭✭serox_21


    Sometimes this companies called "professionals" might not do the best job. They are looking to maximize profit, use cheaper components, installation done to pass minimum required standards. Time is money so they will look to finish as soon as possible.

    As a DIY you will want to have it done the best way possible(better cable management, extra protections, better equipment, thicker cables).


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    niallers1 wrote: »
    You might be able to D.I.Y. cheaper but I'd pay the extra to get a professional to do it and take the risk of working at height.

    The grant takes alot of the cost away for people ( majority) who will never attempt the install themselves.
    Without grant I would not get solar
    With grant I will.


    I live in a bungalow :-) could hurt myself more changing a light bulb :P:P:P:P


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,881 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    niallers1 wrote: »
    You might be able to D.I.Y. cheaper

    Not on the 4kwp + battery system. The parts alone would cost you more than a SEAI installer would charge you for doing the complete job.

    About the best prices you can get are

    panels 14 * 148, inverter 1200, batteries 1900, mounting and other 600 (this is extremely tight), total 5770 + VAT which will bring it well over the 7k mark SEAI approved installers have quoted

    On a smaller system it could be worth your while DIY. Even if you don't want to go on your roof, a recommended roofer could install the panels for you for fairly little money. If you do the cabling yourself, I can't see a sparks charging more than 200 for hooking it all up


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    unkel wrote: »
    Not on the 4kwp + battery system. The parts alone would cost you more than a SEAI installer would charge you for doing the complete job.

    About the best prices you can get are

    panels 14 * 148, inverter 1200, batteries 1900, mounting and other 600 (this is extremely tight), total 5770 + VAT which will bring it well over the 7k mark SEAI approved installers have quoted

    On a smaller system it could be worth your while DIY. Even if you don't want to go on your roof, a recommended roofer could install the panels for you for fairly little money. If you do the cabling yourself, I can't see a sparks charging more than 200 for hooking it all up

    The 7k you mention for the 4kw plus battery, is that before or after the grant, cos every price I am getting so far is in or about 11k (Inc vat), so just over 7k after the grant.

    Are you saying 7k before the grant ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,881 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    No after the grant. So 7k cost to the homeowner, everything included (incl VAT). And as I demonstrated the parts alone incl VAT would cost more


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Guys whats the thinking on evacuated tubes against flat panels?

    Been reading about them and there's no definitive answer!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,881 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Guys whats the thinking on evacuated tubes against flat panels?

    This thread is about solar PV :p

    For solar hot water heating, panels are better looking, but more expensive and less efficient. So have a far longer payback. And don't do either, unless you use a lot of hot water (a lot more than the national average)


  • Advertisement
  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    unkel wrote: »
    This thread is about solar PV :p

    For solar hot water heating, panels are better looking, but more expensive and less efficient. So have a far longer payback. And don't do either, unless you use a lot of hot water (a lot more than the national average)

    Do payback figures take into account that unused hot water provides background house heating? I think a lot of payback figures are very optimistic. Consumers and the renewable industry don't seem to take into account human behaviour at all. For example if you make hot water free, more hot water is used.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,881 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    We use more hot water now because it's free. And because it is heated by the sun. Exactly as you say. If my teenage daughter now has a 30 minute shower, I don't give out. I would have given out if I had to pay for her excessive use of my boiler burning fossil fuel.

    My payback calculations were based on our consumption and behaviour prior to having the system installed though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭eire1987


    rolion wrote: »
    I'll go with the best insulation available on the market today.
    Insulate with a 100-200 mm and make it sound proof / water tight / airtight up to being a "passive maniac".

    Once you have a closed container / framework,get a heat recovery ventilation.

    Then,heating it and retaing that heat it will be your last problem...the smaller heat pump or boiler or radiator/underfloor heating systems combination with a nice multizoned automated controls ... will have to work very small / low energy transformation to get a temperature boost from a nice constant 15ish to 20ish.

    Next,subject to budget,i will go with few solar tubes for hot water and PVs for electricity.IF budget tight,go for PVs and diverter.

    Any decision,enjoy the adventure of self build...i envy you ! :)

    We decided to go with the hone system, I have to say I was very vary of what their system has however I have to say we were impressed so we are going with a timber framed house with the hone system... I will keep the group posted in how things worked out with hone if ye want..

    Meeting the planner on Tuesday he was quite positive towards us going for this... So hopefully it will be good!! :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,881 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Looks like you fell for their sharp sales tactics. But don't take my word for it. Do yourself a favour and pay an independent consultant go over the "hone system" plans before you commit your money.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,881 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    The inventor behind the Hone system is soon to become a billionaire :p

    Linky


  • Advertisement
Advertisement