Constructive input- welcome or invasive?

Safiri

Just throwing out a feeler there on people's thoughts on this. I see a lot of people are crying out for this on the forum but what are your thoughts on actually recieving it? Is it something you see as valuable and something you pay heed to? Or is it just invasive criticism?

skyblue46

Safiri wrote: »

Just throwing out a feeler there on people's thoughts on this. I see a lot of people are crying out for this on the forum but what are your thoughts on actually recieving it? Is it something you see as valuable and something you pay heed to? Or is it just invasive criticism?

I think if someone asks for input then they should be prepared to accept whatever comes their way be that critical or supportive. I would anyway. I might not agree with the advice but I'd judge that on a case by case basis.

Testosterscone

If you post on a discussion forum in my opinion your content should be open to discussion why else post? The best content comes from differences of opinions and these days with so many blindly following plans a bit of critic evaluation with a healthy dollop of experience and difference of opinions will help you make an informed decision and if you are confident in your decisions and reasons why you are doing something then it will reaffirm your confidence in the approach.

People should not take offence at someone being critical much like people shouldn't take offence in there advice being ignored.

The only caveat I would say to this is a bit of self awareness and common sense, don't go taking a pop at peoples approaches to a marathon the week of that full taper madness has kicked in and likewise "I told you so" type posts can hold off a couple of days after a bad race/session etc

Swashbuckler

Personally I wouldn't have a log on here if a didn't want it.

In the last few weeks I've had a bunch of tips, advice etc and I've even taken most on board and at least tried them.

No great runner was made without listening to others. I very much welcome it.

RayCun

It depends. Usually when people say, "I'm brutally honest" or "I just tell it like it is" they mean they are rude ****ers
But as long as you don't feel the need for disclaimers like that, most people welcome advice

Annie get your Run

I doubt there's anyone here who wouldn't value constructive criticism, advice or a different perspective on their training etc. but, there's a way to do it and way not to I think. The delivery probably has more impact than the message itself.

Safiri

skyblue46 wrote: »

I think if someone asks for input then they should be prepared to accept whatever comes their way be that critical or supportive. I would anyway. I might not agree with the advice but I'd judge that on a case by case basis.

What would your basis be for judging the quality of advice?

Testosterscone wrote: »

If you post on a discussion forum in my opinion your content should be open to discussion why else post?

I agree and maybe this is something that gets lost on here by people who may not say something they see in another persons training and by the person recieving advice.

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Personally I wouldn't have a log on here if a didn't want it.

In the last few weeks I've had a bunch of tips, advice etc and I've even taken most on board and at least tried them.

No great runner was made without listening to others. I very much welcome it.

No man is an Island, of that I'm sure!

RayCun wrote: »

It depends. Usually when people say, "I'm brutally honest" or "I just tell it like it is" they mean they are rude ****ers
But as long as you don't feel the need for disclaimers like that, most people welcome advice

Annie get your Run wrote: »

I doubt there's anyone here who wouldn't value constructive criticism, advice or a different perspective on their training etc. but, there's a way to do it and way not to I think. The delivery probably has more impact than the message itself.

Agree with these but wouldn't there be situations where tough love is called for? Often when people have deep seated beliefs, any sort of advice to the contrary is seen as abrasive and the person giving advice has to be willing to be hated to do the right thing?

RayCun

Tough love can work when it is coming from someone you know and respect. Coming from someone you don't know it is likely to make you defensive or annoyed, and will be ignored.

Annie get your Run

Safiri wrote: »

Agree with these but wouldn't there be situations where tough love is called for? Often when people have deep seated beliefs, any sort of advice to the contrary is seen as abrasive and the person giving advice has to be willing to be hated to do the right thing?

The right thing in who's opinion though? The person giving the advice is only offering their opinion. Even amongst the elites and their coaches opinions differ and vary. If you were to listen to every piece of advice offered here you'd end up running backwards too fast, too slow, to flat to hilly etc etc etc.

I think there is a place here for debate and discussion around training methods, plans, all the different ways to achieve something from those starting out to those very experienced runners here. I'm not so sure about giving *tough love*, doesn't that imply that you know best? Maybe you do but hey, I don't know you from adam .

Safiri

RayCun wrote: »

Tough love can work when it is coming from someone you know and respect. Coming from someone you don't know it is likely to make you defensive or annoyed, and will be ignored.

Yeah, that's true.

Annie get your Run wrote: »

The right thing in who's opinion though? The person giving the advice is only offering their opinion. Even amongst the elites and their coaches opinions differ and vary. If you were to listen to every piece of advice offered here you'd end up running backwards too fast, too slow, to flat to hilly etc etc etc.

I think there is a place here for debate and discussion around training methods, plans, all the different ways to achieve something from those starting out to those very experienced runners here. I'm not so sure about giving *tough love*, doesn't that imply that you know best? Maybe you do but hey, I don't know you from adam .

Good point. The know it all can be strong on both sides of the coin:D.

Swashbuckler

Annie get your Run wrote:

I think there is a place here for debate and discussion around training methods, plans, all the different ways to achieve something from those starting out to those very experienced runners here. I'm not so sure about giving *tough love*, doesn't that imply that you know best? Maybe you do but hey, I don't know you from adam .

Also add to the fact that one size doesn't fit all. I might be have a very strong aerobic base but lack speed and some other guy might be the complete opposite. Without that kind of background knowledge constructive criticism may not be so constructive.

skyblue46

Safiri wrote: »

What would your basis be for judging the quality of advice?

Perhaps I should have said that I might not agree the advice is best for me. That could be for any number of reasons and not a judgement of the advice and how suitable it might be for others.

Safiri

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Also add to the fact that one size doesn't fit all. I might be have a very strong aerobic base but lack speed and some other guy might be the complete opposite. Without that kind of background knowledge constructive criticism may not be so constructive.

Very true but this is somewhere where I think boards is on a different level to anything else. The amount of background training and information is huge, some people have 100's of pages on their training history just a click away from themselves and anyone else. I read back 100 pages of AMK's log last week for instance(I've too much time on my hands). That platform creates a huge oppurtunity for feedback in my opinion. It's more information on a persons training than 99% of coaches will ever see on one runner.

Swashbuckler

Safiri wrote:

Very true but this is somewhere where I think boards is on a different level to anything else. The amount of background training and information is huge, some people have 100's of pages on their training history just a click away from themselves and anyone else. I read back 100 pages of AMK's log last week for instance(I've too much time on my hands). That platform creates a huge oppurtunity for feedback in my opinion. It's more information on a persons training than 99% of coaches will ever see on one runner.

I guess I hadn't considered anyone would be that committed haha. Fair play. It is an interesting log in fairness. So yeah fair point

AuldManKing

Safiri wrote: »

Very true but this is somewhere where I think boards is on a different level to anything else. The amount of background training and information is huge, some people have 100's of pages on their training history just a click away from themselves and anyone else. I read back 100 pages of AMK's log last week for instance(I've too much time on my hands). That platform creates a huge oppurtunity for feedback in my opinion. It's more information on a persons training than 99% of coaches will ever see on one runner.

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I guess I hadn't considered anyone would be that committed haha. Fair play. It is an interesting log in fairness. So yeah fair point

Interesting........Interesting......only Interesting!

I'd say Safiri was hooked - he seen motivation, determination and every other 'ation out there, I'd say he laughed, I say he cried and at the end of it all...........he started a log

AuldManKing

I'm all for feedback - thing is about boards, you dont really know the qualifications or such of some of the people giving it out. They could be talking rubbish, but sounding like they know what they are talking about. So one needs to be careful with it until they build a picture of the person giving the advice.

Swashbuckler

AuldManKing wrote:

I'd say Safiri was hooked - he seen motivation, determination and every other 'ation out there,

Elevation

Safiri

AuldManKing wrote: »

Interesting........Interesting......only Interesting!

I'd say Safiri was hooked - he seen motivation, determination and every other 'ation out there, I'd say he laughed, I say he cried and at the end of it all...........he started a log

Self-deprecation

AuldManKing wrote: »

I'm all for feedback - thing is about boards, you dont really know the qualifications or such of some of the people giving it out. They could be talking rubbish, but sounding like they know what they are talking about. So one needs to be careful with it until they build a picture of the person giving the advice.

Good point. It's a funny one I think. Reading through the logs, some of the most interesting and constructive one's are from newer posters and among the advice given is also by newer posters and have the most general training chit chat. While I agree that there has to be some respect built for the advice to be heeded; Is it possible that there is sometimes too much respect shown on both sides at times to more established posters? That someone with "less" knowledge might not speak up even though their view may have more objective value etc?

Swashbuckler

Safiri wrote:

Is it possible that there is sometimes too much respect shown on both sides at times to more established posters? That someone with "less" knowledge might not speak up even though their view may have more objective value etc?

I can safely say I've probably half written and discarded 20 posts and decided to wait until someone more experienced commented first.

Testosterscone

Safiri wrote: »

Agree with these but wouldn't there be situations where tough love is called for? Often when people have deep seated beliefs, any sort of advice to the contrary is seen as abrasive and the person giving advice has to be willing to be hated to do the right thing?

Dogmatic views by either the person who gives the advice or person receiving aren't gonna be changed through perseverance. There have been many incidences of this that can be found throughout here (to this day there are groups here who won't listen to advice simply because it comes from a particular person and likewise people who automatically like posts because they are from or in criticism of particular poster ) life is too short to waste time with those who don't want to be helped.

Safiri wrote: »

]Is it possible that there is sometimes too much respect shown on both sides at times to more established posters? That someone with "less" knowledge might not speak up even though their view may have more objective value etc?

Completely. There is a part of the charter that says attack the post and not the poster. That works on many levels.

A poster shouldn't be respected (well on a human level yes but that's it) Respect the content regardless who it comes from. Critically looking at the advice and how it relates to the individual is what we need to be learning. Unfortunately this is a skill that is lacking a bit and one of the reasons why many follow generic plans as they are unsure of how to tweak them individually to suit there needs. Even advice given from respected people can change. Training concepts are fluid, its a balancing act between many different factors;

- Physiological
- Psychological
- Social
- Personal Experience

A good example I can think of is Tim Noakes, whose pioneering work in sports science and his book the Lore of Running (still recommend that as a Bible for those starting off on coaching path) was once someone I highly regarded for years till his more recent zealotry into the hydration and LCHF work.

Many comments I have made over the years while not being wrong at the time and info I would stand by would not be the same advice I give now, there is no magic formula or set plan, best coaches are willing to be open to change (when its not just for changes sake) and learn constantly. This is why no matter the level of experience contributions help everyone (even the people you feel might be more experienced)

I have learned alot from people I would consider poor coaches because they challenge me to evaluate my own views regularly.

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I can safely say I've probably half written and discarded 20 posts and decided to wait until someone more experienced commented first.

Ironically this is sometimes the reason I avoid responding to some posts so that hopefully others weigh in an give there thoughts. I think there are probably a few other regular posters who do the same.

squinn2912

For me running is like trying to write an essay. You get lots of information from the most reliable sources you can and then you make up your own judgements and go with that.

In terms of how that advice is communicated to me personally I enjoy getting a clap on the back but it doesn't improve my performances the way a bit of grit does when someone cuts me down a bit.

I've learnt lots on here and have found contributors to be honest with little time for bs and very encouraging and supportive

Baby75

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I can safely say I've probably half written and discarded 20 posts and decided to wait until someone more experienced commented first.

I have done the same many times

Duanington

Baby75 wrote: »

I have done the same many times

Post it next time, I think everyone wins that way. When I have time, I often post stuff that I believe to be true and helpful, then someone may come along and gently point me back in the right direction ....then maybe someone else throws in their piece and a different angle is uncovered.

The conversation thread is priceless though for anyone who wants to invest the time in taking it onboard....every now and then a thread will evolve into something much bigger than originally intended. That only happens if people post though...and of course if everyone respects each post and point of view ( and if they don't, who cares...ignorant words on a screen don't mean a lot really


My answe to the original question? Most welcome, always

Swashbuckler

I get what you're saying D but sometimes it's easier said than done. Take the DCM grad thread for example. Often they look for advice. It can be daunting potentially giving them bad advice so sometimes I just err on the side of caution.

Murph_D

I certainly welcome any kind of comment or advice or criticism, although not much has been forthcoming over 5+ years of logging. A few of the people who did comment rarely post anymore, but I know them in real life and communicate by other means, mostly face to face, which is preferable.

Echo most of the above though - advice is especially welcome from people who have earned respect through a history of constructive contribution and proven results. The emphasis being on ‘earned’. But I think most people here are open to advice and comment from anywhere. However we all reserve the right to implement, modify, or ignore it!

Annie get your Run

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I get what you're saying D but sometimes it's easier said than done. Take the DCM grad thread for example. Often they look for advice. It can be daunting potentially giving them bad advice so sometimes I just err on the side of caution.

You can offer advice based on your own experience, what’s worked (or not) for you. Everyone is different and some things won’t work for some people but if you don’t offer the suggestion then they won’t see the variety of options that might be available. If you get something very wrong someone will come along and point it out. Happens to me regularly . It’s everyone’s ’ forum Swashbuckler !

That goes for baby too.

Swashbuckler

Annie get your Run wrote:

You can offer advice based on your own experience, what’s worked (or not) for you. Everyone is different and some things won’t work for some people but if you don’t offer the suggestion then they won’t see the variety of options that might be available. If you get something very wrong someone will come along and point it out. Happens to me regularly . It’s everyone’s ’ forum Swashbuckler !

I hear you. It's just not easy when a. You're a bit unsure of yourself and b. There are absolutely people more qualified to comment on here. But fair enough. I'll be more forthcoming with my shi*ty advice in future.

OOnegative

I as has been stated already welcome any input on my log, constructive or otherwise. Having been around this place a while you get to know people and who to listen to. I like others to have often gone to the bother of replying to posts but pull the plug in the last second in hope someone of more knowledge replies instead. If you ever need a “good luck” or “well done” though i’m your man!!!

Swashbuckler

OOnegative wrote:

If you ever need a “good luck†or “well done†though i’m your man!!!

He's not lying in fairness. Always the second to wish me luck.;)

Baby75

Duanington wrote: »

Post it next time, I think everyone wins that way. When I have time, I often post stuff that I believe to be true and helpful, then someone may come along and gently point me back in the right direction ....then maybe someone else throws in their piece and a different angle is uncovered.

The conversation thread is priceless though for anyone who wants to invest the time in taking it onboard....every now and then a thread will evolve into something much bigger than originally intended. That only happens if people post though...and of course if everyone respects each post and point of view ( and if they don't, who cares...ignorant words on a screen don't mean a lot really


My answe to the original question? Most welcome, always

I will do Thank you

skyblue46

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I get what you're saying D but sometimes it's easier said than done. Take the DCM grad thread for example. Often they look for advice. It can be daunting potentially giving them bad advice so sometimes I just err on the side of caution.

As the elder lemon grad I say keep posting, don't hold back. In all honesty there is rarely such a thing as bad advice. If it worked for you it could work for others. Your input on that thread really is appreciated. Personally I find so many posts and logs from so many people helpful. I relate to comments from new runners as I am one, from this years novices because I was one, from masters runners because I'm one, from shift workers as I do them too, from those who over analyse because I'm cursed that way and from over trainers as I suspect I may be one. :pac:

I tend to try to advise some of the newer runners and my advice comes from what I have benefited from receiving from AMK, Wubble, El C and T....in other words easy is very easy!! It may not suit everyone but I will still throw it out there.