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school closures

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    #32
    dory
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,501 Mod ✭✭✭✭dory


    dory wrote: »
    Will we say a quick decade of the rosary for a snow day? Who wants to start us off?

    You can all thank me for my praying. Was at it all night!


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    #33
    Chancer3001
    Registered Users Posts: 5,480 ✭✭✭Chancer3001


    does anybody have the circular or the inside track on making up these days?

    Just rumours of yes / no at the moment


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    #34
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,247 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Chancer3001 wrote: »
    does anybody have the circular or the inside track on making up these days?

    Just rumours of yes / no at the moment

    It’s in link posted 2 Up


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    #35
    Chancer3001
    Registered Users Posts: 5,480 ✭✭✭Chancer3001


    in the case of second level schools ensuring examination classes attend
    all classes to the end of May.

    thats from the circular.

    So they CAN get away with saying to 6th years to come in after their graduation mass for example.

    but whether not not they WILL do this , or theyll make us come in remains to be seen


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    #36
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭acequion


    I've an away holiday booked for the first week at Easter and no way will I cancel it,however I may be sanctioned. Family comes first!


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    #37
    Chancer3001
    Registered Users Posts: 5,480 ✭✭✭Chancer3001


    Im sure colleagues will cover classes


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    #38
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭acequion


    Chancer3001 wrote: »
    Im sure colleagues will cover classes

    You being smart? Not appreciated if you are.:mad:

    Firstly, being forced to go to work during official holiday time would set another precedent for yet another hit on ever worsening working conditions. Yes that preposterous contingency has been in the books for some time,brought in during one of the condition worsening, or sorry "reform" agreements! But to actually see it happen would be a new low.

    Secondly, if it happens I hope that like me several collegues would also be away enjoying some quality family time or is that no longer allowed? In my school, it seems that several have booked to go away those very days.

    Thirdly, I would neither want nor accept anybody "covering" for me. If this comes to pass I will take whatever sanction will undoubtedly be meted out.

    Two threads on this forum are on the teacher shortage. Small wonder!!


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    #39
    Chancer3001
    Registered Users Posts: 5,480 ✭✭✭Chancer3001


    Actually not being smart at all.

    Your back must be up for some reason.

    I know if it was my school and somebody was stuck with a booked holiday , we'd probably just cover them for the 2 days.

    Or they'd call in sick. Or use force majeure days.

    I assume not showing up for these days would be the same as not showing up for regular work


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    #40
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭acequion


    Chancer3001 wrote: »
    Actually not being smart at all.

    Your back must be up for some reason.

    I know if it was my school and somebody was stuck with a booked holiday , we'd probably just cover them for the 2 days.

    Or they'd call in sick. Or use force majeure days.

    I assume not showing up for these days would be the same as not showing up for regular work

    No I don't accept what you say at all!

    And yes my back is up for the reason that on top of all the new "normals" we have accepted, the employer demanding that we use official holiday time to recover time from school closures beyond our control being accepted as "normal" by ordinary teachers is very, very worrying.

    It is totally not the same as not showing up for regular work. Can you not see that?

    It is not the same as taking a sick or a force majeure day. You do that during working time NOT official holiday time.

    Only having holidays if the weather is ok is like a stupid Irish joke, only it's not a joke. It's actually a reality. And it's very much incumbent on staffs all around the country to ensure that all the other avenues are covered so that holiday time is not touched.

    Holidays is one of the very few things left in teaching that will encourage new entrants. And with increasing demands on a teacher's time holidays are probably the only time left for real quality time with your family. And sorry but for me that is by far the most important.


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    #41
    Chancer3001
    Registered Users Posts: 5,480 ✭✭✭Chancer3001


    I'm sure there are ways around it.

    Like keeping in 6th years after graduation masses to make up the days.

    Like I posted earlier.

    However I can see the government's point on this one. If we close for a long time (over a week say) we should try to make up a few days for the exam classes.

    Also it's not just an Irish thing. Happens very regularly in the US for example. A quick Google will show it's common practice in many countries


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    #42
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭acequion


    Chancer3001 wrote: »
    I'm sure there are ways around it.

    Like keeping in 6th years after graduation masses to make up the days.

    Like I posted earlier.

    However I can see the government's point on this one. If we close for a long time (over a week say) we should try to make up a few days for the exam classes.

    Also it's not just an Irish thing. Happens very regularly in the US for example. A quick Google will show it's common practice in many countries

    And we all know what a horrible working environment American teachers have. And we also know That Americans place work above all else. Is that how you want us to be? I don't. Even though we're three quarters there already.

    And I don't see the Govt's point. I would see their point if these closures were a once a decade event but they're not. All too frequently we get red weather alerts and mostly it's a storm in a tea cup. This is the second time this school year that we've had to close. I'm not saying that the closures are always unjustified but many times they are and it really is unacceptable to then be forced to make up the time. Unofficially I will probably give a few lunch time classes to 6th years because we just can't afford all the absences when you count in the JC days as well. But's that's unofficial and that's just me. Most teachers will quietly and unofficially do something similar as teacher are conscientious beings.

    And yes the other avenues that you mention should be insisted upon by staffs everywhere.


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    #43
    meep
    Registered Users Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭meep


    acequion wrote: »
    You being smart? Not appreciated if you are.:mad:

    Yes that preposterous contingency has been in the books for some time,brought in during one of the condition worsening, or sorry "reform" agreements! But to actually see it happen would be a new low.

    So conditions were agreed to by unions on the basis that they were never realisticaly expected to be implemented?

    Interesting.

    What other elements in the agreements would teachers reasonably not expect to actualy adhere to?


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    #44
    icebergiceberg
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭icebergiceberg


    If days have to be made up, for Easter for example, and you have booked your holiday and decide to go on holiday what sanctions are in place for this?

    Has anyone ever been sanctioned in this way? Who does the sanctioning?

    'I'm not giving up two days of my Easter/Christmas etc holidays. I've already booked a family holiday'.

    Has management the right to ask for confirmation of the date of the booking?

    Isn't using a Force Majuere day under these circumstances lying?


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    #45
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭acequion


    meep wrote: »
    So conditions were agreed to by unions on the basis that they were never realisticaly expected to be implemented?

    Interesting.

    What other elements in the agreements would teachers reasonably not expect to actualy adhere to?

    Are you a teacher? If you are, you will be completely familiar with everything that unions have and haven't agreed to since the economy crashed in 2008 and will have your own views on the matter whether they concur or not with mine.

    If you're not a teacher but are genuinely interested, I suggest you look it up.You'll find any amount of information at www.asti.ie and www.tui.ie Plus any amount of discussions and viewpoints on these threads if you care to read through them.

    If you're just looking to pick an argument with a teacher,sorry to disappoint you but I don't engage in discussing teaching related issues with the general public.


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    #46
    Bananaleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Bananaleaf


    I had all my classes pre-warned that this was a possibility and so had all of them make sure they were signed up to Edmodo. I have posted a class lesson for each of my timetabled classes today and will do so again tomorrow and Friday. I have had no indication that a single person has logged on to accept or do the work today and seeing as I have also assigned them quizzes, which haven't been done, I presume nobody has.

    I find it hard to (and refuse to) take the guff given by parents who are raging that we are "off again", if their kids aren't even (a) bothered and (b) made to log on and do the assigned work.


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    #47
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,247 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Bananaleaf wrote: »
    I had all my classes pre-warned that this was a possibility and so had all of them make sure they were signed up to Edmodo. I have posted a class lesson for each of my timetabled classes today and will do so again tomorrow and Friday. I have had no indication that a single person has logged on to accept or do the work today and seeing as I have also assigned them quizzes, which haven't been done, I presume nobody has.

    I find it hard to (and refuse to) take the guff given by parents who are raging that we are "off again", if their kids aren't even (a) bothered and (b) made to log on and do the assigned work.

    I have said the same to my classes for Friday just in case
    I suppose in effect it could be viewed as working from home..........


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    #48
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭acequion


    icebergiceberg wrote: »
    If days have to be made up, for Easter for example, and you have booked your holiday and decide to go on holiday what sanctions are in place for this?

    Has anyone ever been sanctioned in this way? Who does the sanctioning?

    'I'm not giving up two days of my Easter/Christmas etc holidays. I've already booked a family holiday'.

    Has management the right to ask for confirmation of the date of the booking?

    Isn't using a Force Majuere day under these circumstances lying?

    A very interesting question and one which has no precedent. And for that very reason I would urge teachers to make sure that all the other possibilities are used so as to never expose their collegues to this type of thing.

    But as we have seen all sorts of heretofore unimaginables in the teaching profession this past decade, this type of scenario is very likely and one does wonder what indeed would happen.

    My own view is that the worst would be that the teacher take unpaid days.It's still unacceptable imo.


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    #49
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Our school facebook is full of parents going mad at the prospect of opening at Easter, giving out and saying we have no right to take away the kids' holidays. I hope our principal takes note!


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    #50
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭acequion


    Sky Wrong Fighter wrote: »
    Our school facebook is full of parents going mad at the prospect of opening at Easter, giving out and saying we have no right to take away the kids' holidays. I hope our principal takes note!

    Did your principal announce that ye would open at Easter?


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    #51
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    acequion wrote: »
    Did your principal announce that ye would open at Easter?

    Not exactly. But this possibility of opening during midterm/Easter is something he is obsessed with. He includes it as a reminder in emails and staff notices throughout the year. He also mentioned it as a possibility in a letter sent home to parents on Monday advising them to watch the website and update phone numbers for text alerts for the expected bad weather.


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    #52
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,517 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    acequion wrote: »
    You being smart? Not appreciated if you are.:mad:

    Firstly, being forced to go to work during official holiday time would set another precedent for yet another hit on ever worsening working conditions. Yes that preposterous contingency has been in the books for some time,brought in during one of the condition worsening, or sorry "reform" agreements! But to actually see it happen would be a new low.
    r!!

    I agree with you however I want to correct this myth. Teachers are entitled to 30 days holidays i think year which must be taken during school closures. We aren't on holidays all the time but rather the school is closed and hence we're not required to be in the school. It may be pedantic but important if you wish to push the point.


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    #53
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    TheDriver wrote: »
    I agree with you however I want to correct this myth. Teachers are entitled to 30 days holidays i think year which must be taken during school closures. We aren't on holidays all the time but rather the school is closed and hence we're not required to be in the school. It may be pedantic but important if you wish to push the point.

    I have to agree. I am an ETB teacher too and our contract has the technical 30 days holiday. I don't think asking us to be available for potentially six days if we have extended closures during the year is overkill and the circular has been in place for years now.

    TBH I think it reflects poorly on us as a profession to make statements like "Well I won't be in whether we open or not" as a staff member said in our school during the week. Its not much to ask that you book your holidays for after the potential days. And given that we had two days for Ophelia already, it was pointed out to our staff, on several occasions "just in case" and yet they booked holidays anyways? The mind boggles.


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    #54
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,517 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    There's 2 issues with opening during Easter in reality. a) are other local schools e.g. Primary schools not opening when the secondary does and b) we look like we are taking the holidays away from kids.
    On a side note, IF we opened, anyone with hols booked isn't a reasonable excuse in theory because circ 0009 states you should have kept those days available just in case. However you could ring sick. I don't think it would come to that however.
    It's sad that our first thoughts when considering closing due to safety is about making up days. It's not nice that it's held over us like that


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    #55
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭acequion


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    I have to agree. I am an ETB teacher too and our contract has the technical 30 days holiday. I don't think asking us to be available for potentially six days if we have extended closures during the year is overkill and the circular has been in place for years now.

    TBH I think it reflects poorly on us as a profession to make statements like "Well I won't be in whether we open or not" as a staff member said in our school during the week. Its not much to ask that you book your holidays for after the potential days. And given that we had two days for Ophelia already, it was pointed out to our staff, on several occasions "just in case" and yet they booked holidays anyways? The mind boggles.

    I completely disagree. Yes it certainly is too much to ask teachers to book outside the contingency days and to just hang around during them "just in case." Have you not noticed how hard it is to get any type of reasonably priced holiday during school holiday time? The only time that is actually available to teachers. And you think it's ok to limit that time still further? Let's just look at this scenario for example: Teacher, non teacher partner and kids would like to go away. Non teacher partner has only one week,the first week, so a good few months in advance to have any hope of a reasonable price, they check it out and there are only two flights a week to their chosen destination,say Mondays and Thursdays. But the price for Thursday is double that of Monday. So, according to your point, they must take the Thurs which is way dearer and gives them less time away cos the teacher has to be available "just in case!" I personally think that's preposterous!

    As for all this "it reflects badly on us" etc etc and "I don't think what they're asking is too much" to yet another outrageous demand,well I think it reflects badly on you that you accept this type of thing and that you're criticising your collegues for putting themselves and their families first and booking their holidays.

    Like myself, mirrorwall, you're a regular poster here and I normally have a lot of respect for your views. But the mind boggles how you and other teachers constantly accept the unacceptable from the employer. I take your point about the 30 days thing but you must be very well aware that holidays, call them school closures or whatever, are about all that has not been attacked in recent years.


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    #56
    acequion
    Registered Users Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭acequion


    TheDriver wrote: »
    I agree with you however I want to correct this myth. Teachers are entitled to 30 days holidays i think year which must be taken during school closures. We aren't on holidays all the time but rather the school is closed and hence we're not required to be in the school. It may be pedantic but important if you wish to push the point.

    Fair enough and thanks for pointing that out but do you know of a precedent? Do you know of a school which,for whatever reason,opened to normal tuition during an official school holiday period?


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    #57
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,517 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    I don't know of a precedent but then again maybe someone here does. It is in a circular.
    On a side note the public are easily wound up but teachers putting up on Facebook "yay day off"etc etc just gives certain sections ammunition against the profession.


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    #58
    Bananaleaf
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Bananaleaf


    km79 wrote: »
    I have said the same to my classes for Friday just in case
    I suppose in effect it could be viewed as working from home..........

    Indeed.
    Sky Wrong Fighter wrote: »
    Our school facebook is full of parents going mad at the prospect of opening at Easter, giving out and saying we have no right to take away the kids' holidays. I hope our principal takes note!

    LOL - guaranteed that same parents would be effing and blinding if you guys didn't have a plan in place for making up for lost time.


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    #59
    happywithlife
    Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭happywithlife


    Another aspect of potentially opening over Easter imo is the complete pointlessness of it as in my school anyway no way will the kids come in. Many will also be away on pre booked holidays themselves . I know I would end up with 3 in class 5 in that and so on. I could no more move on with new work / specific revision for exam classes. It would be a purely optics move.


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    #60
    Aineoil
    Registered Users Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Aineoil


    I'm going to retire early this year because you know you are dammed if you do and are dammed if you don't.

    The only lost time I'm going to make up is to spend it on me. I have earned it.


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    #61
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Bananaleaf wrote: »

    LOL - guaranteed that same parents would be effing and blinding if you guys didn't have a plan in place for making up for lost time.

    I really don't think so tbh. And after a previous closure due to burst pipes it was the parents association and parent nominees on the BOM who argued most strongly against opening during midterm or cancelling tours to make up time.


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