Biological males in women's sport

BoJack Horseman

ceadaoin. wrote: »

It's like a cult

Check your privilege bro.

This isn't a cult.... this is stunning and brave!

Wibbs

Zorya wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b0ftfKFEJg

Crass, maybe, but true and provably so. Those two women in second and third place were robbed of their effort and placings. And no save me from some daft "the data isn't in yet". It is. If one had the unblinkered sense to read the volumes of data on the matter. Save me from some "crash test dummies were gender biased" daftness, because that goes a helluva long way towards proving my position.

This has gone beyond the utterly bloody ridiculous at this stage and frankly I've had enough of this complete fcuking nonsense masquerading as some half baked philosophy. Call me "transphobic"? Work away to your heart's content. I'm proud to not be "Factphobic".

Pyr0

Let me get this straight, some people are trying to argue that a man transitioning into a woman, who completes in a professional sport, has no physical advantage over a biological/natural woman?

Let's take TJ Dillashaw as an example, he's the current UFC Bantamweight Champion at 135lbs and match him up with a Amanda Nunes, current Women's Bantemweight Champion.

So people are saying that TJ would have no physical advantages over Amanda Nunes if he was transitioning into a woman and that it'd be a fair match up? It's already scientific fact that man are genetically stronger than women due to bone and muscle density, joint strenght and have greater cardiovascular systems compareable to a woman of equal size and weight.

It's madness to suggest it's an equal match up, and i'm not even considering the skill levels involved here.

Even a transitioning man who is medically adjusting their testosterone and estrogen levels will clearly retain characteristics of their old body type, look at the cyclist as a clear example. If she isn't adjusting her levels, you can undboutly tell she used to be a man but If she is adjusting her levels, you can still undoubtly tell she used to be a man.

All TJ has to do is at least identify as a woman according to people out there and that alone allows him to compete as a woman and it's considered fair?

Right.

Mean Laqueefa

Pyr0 wrote: »

Let me get this straight, some people are trying to argue that a man transitioning into a woman, who completes in a professional sport, has no physical advantage over a biological/natural woman?

Let's take TJ Dillashaw as an example, he's the current UFC Bantamweight Champion at 135lbs and match him up with a Amanda Nunes, current Women's Bantemweight Champion.

So people are saying that TJ would have no physical advantages over Amanda Nunes if he was transitioning into a woman and that it'd be a fair match up? It's already scientific fact that man are genetically stronger than women due to bone and muscle density, joint strenght and have greater cardiovascular systems compareable to a woman of equal size and weight.

It's madness to suggest it's an equal match up, and i'm not even considering the skill levels involved here.

Even a transitioning man who is medically adjusting their testosterone and estrogen levels will clearly retain characteristics of their old body type, look at the cyclist as a clear example. If she isn't adjusting her levels, you can undboutly tell she used to be a man but If she is adjusting her levels, you can still undoubtly tell she used to be a man.

All TJ has to do is at least identify as a woman according to people out there and that alone allows him to compete as a woman and it's considered fair?

Right.

By golly i just dropped my copy of the guardian

Twenty Grand

Yup. That's what happens. There's a blatant disregard for biology.

Put a woman and a man who identifies as a woman into a boxing ring and the result will be clear.
It doesn't matter if the trans man if on hormones and suppressants and whatever else. S/he'll have bigger muscles, bigger bones, bigger hands, more cardiovascular ability, more stamina etc etc.

Both Serena and Venus Williams were easily beaten by the 203rd ranked male tennis player in 1998. He said after the match ""They wouldn't have had a chance against anyone inside the top 500 because today I played like someone ranked 600th to keep it fun".

ceadaoin.

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Yup. That's what happens. There's a blatant disregard for biology.

Put a woman and a man who identifies as a woman into a boxing ring and the result will be clear.
It doesn't matter if the trans man if on hormones and suppressants and whatever else. S/he'll have bigger muscles, bigger bones, bigger hands, more cardiovascular ability, more stamina etc etc.

.

It's already happened. Look up Fallon fox. Put one of her opponents in hospital

During Fox's fight against Tamikka Brents, Brents suffered a concussion, an orbital bone fracture, and seven staples to the head in the 1st round. After her loss, Brents took to social media to convey her thoughts on the experience of fighting Fox: "I've fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can't answer whether it's because she was born a man or not because I'm not a doctor. I can only say, I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right," she stated. "Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn't move at all in Fox's clinch..."[19]

astrofool

The only real answer is to drop the gender based competitions entirely, and move to a handicap based system (where you move up competition tiers based on your results), but it would be the complete death knell for the vast majority of women in competitive sport.

Twenty Grand

astrofool wrote: »

The only real answer is to drop the gender based competitions entirely, and move to a handicap based system (where you move up competition tiers based on your results), but it would be the complete death knell for the vast majority of women in competitive sport.

Or have four competitions. Male, female, male trans and female trans.

TCM

If one is born with a penis then one is a man. A man therefore will always be a man irrespective of any surgery. If not a man then the other sex is female and once again surgery will not change that fact.

astrofool

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Or have four competitions. Male, female, male trans and female trans.

You already have cases like Caster Semenya that doesn't really fit anywhere within those.

Ultimately we have competition to allow people to compete against other people who have the capability of being competitive against each other, we don't race people against cars because it's not competitive, and pointless, while male/female isn't quite so extreme, it's not really that close at the top levels of any sport between the genders. Danica Patrick is probably one of the greatest ever sportspeople due to being able to compete effectively at the highest level of her sport, regardless of gender (and I'm sure if we could accurately calculate the XY/XX chromosome difference, we'd find a lot of females are actually the best at their sport, and would be top if they had been born with a different chromosome, but we can't, so the comparison is pointless).

Pseudorandom

It's pretty unfair to say that transwomen can't ever compete in sport competitively, if they're taking hormones they won't be competitive at a male level but the simple physiognomy of their bodies means that it's probably unfair for them to compete with biological women.

But it's pretty unfair that women are generally smaller, slower and less strong than men too. To recognise this unfairness they created an extra category of sports basically so women wouldn't be outcompeted.

I don't think there's an easy solution to this at all, but I personally would be against biological males competing with biological females no matter what their testosterone count is (or whatever the olympics are using to measure it these days).

I do think it's pretty ****ty for trans people though. Trans women would be excluded from womens sports and will likely be uncompetitive in mens sports if they're taking oestrogen. Trans men are uncompetitive in mens sports and are ruled out from womens sports if they're taking testosterone.

****ty all round basically.

benjamin d

Many sports don't actually draw a distinction between male and female in their main competitions - the women's game is in addition to the 'standard' competition. I don't know which do and don't but afaik mens soccer is not male-specific, it's just that women dont get to any level worth talking about. I may be wrong about soccer as an example but certainly for others women are welcome and permitted to compete against men, they are just physically unable.

Reanne Evans won the female world championship in snooker ten years in a row, but when competing on the main snooker tour never won a match and failed to keep her place after one season. This is in snooker, one of the least physically tough professional sports.

Anastasia Dobromyslova is a multiple world champion darts player who has never got past the preliminary round of a major mens tournament (she has beaten men once or twice). Darts is another that is among the least physically tough sports.

The US women's soccer team - one of the most dominant women's international soccer teams, with a host of household names and current world cup holder - was beaten 5-2 by the FC Dallas under 15 academy team in 2017.
The Newcastle Jets (Who? Exactly.) U15s hammered the Australian women's senior team, who at the time were ranked 5th in the world, 7-0 in 2016.
There are other examples from soccer, ice hockey, and I'm sure plenty of other sports.

As with most of the other sceptics here, I have no issue with trans women (and men) living their lives as they see fit and fair play to them for it, but to suggest that a biological male doesn't have an utterly ludicrous advantage over women in sporting endeavours is frankly, well, ludicrous.

Women's sport has come so far in recent years. Speaking as a man, I've only recently started to pay attention to women's soccer with the strides made in promoting the game in the UK and with the Irish women's league coming on in leaps and bounds, including the cup final played with the men's in the Aviva. Women's soccer at a local level is really gaining traction too. The women's GAA championship now has regular televised games. Girls' youth athletics in Ireland is buoyant at the moment. To see all this progress pissed away because of the 'rights' of biological males to come in and breeze through their competitions is insanity.

padd b1975

Gravelly wrote: »

McKinnon sounds like some piece of work.

Blue hair, the calling card of the insufferable pain in the hole.

goat2

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Just after reading an article about a transgender cyclist in NZ who won a womens race after competing as a man only 3 weeks ago. In the men's version of the race last year, this person finished 35th with a time that was still 10 seconds faster than the women's winner. Now here they are winning the women's event . How is this fair? Does anyone actually think this should be allowed?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12002309

Here is an article specifically about the difference between the sexes when it comes to cycling. How can 3 weeks change any of this? don't even think 3 years of transition is going to change skeletal structure, lung size or blood volume

http://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/cycling-and-gender-how-and-why-male-and-female-cyclists-need-to-train-differently-344365

I've seen several stories recently about biological males competing in women's sports and not surprisingly trouncing the competition or even severely injuring their opponents (MMA fighter Fallon fox). Should MTF transgender athletes accept that they should be unable to compete against members of the opposite sex in the name of fairness? I totally get that they want to be and should be treated the same as any other other woman in everyday life but in some situations there are clear advantages. Is there a solution that is fair for everyone?

I don't think that if you were born male, that you could take in female dominated sport, that person was at an unfair advantage, stronger than a woman, men are born different to women in strength, should not be allowed take part in women sport,

Omackeral

padd b1975 wrote: »

Blue hair, the calling card of the insufferable pain in the hole.

Marge Simpson is alright.

PlaneSpeeking

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Real women must feel very uncomfortable with this nonsense

Kinda yeah!

Zorya

Rach - or should I say Dr Rachel McKinnon,Assistant Professor in the Department of Philosophy at the College of Charleston - is all about helping kids too. She advises children whose parents are ''unsupportive'' or ''disrespectful'' to ''walk away'' from them,to find their true ''glitter family'' who can be just as important if not more so than their ''blood family'', and then, you know, hit her up on Skype where they can sort out things. Yeah, cos it's always good when stranger adults are advising confused children to personally contact them.. Watch one minute of this video from 3.25 to 4.25.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8HIUJF--ho

Take a hike on yer bike, McKinnon and leave the kids alone, ok.

wexie

Zorya wrote: »

Rach - or should I say Dr Rachel McKinnon,Assistant Professor in the Department of Philosophy at the College of Charleston - is all about helping kids too. She advises children whose parents are ''unsupportive'' or ''disrespectful'' to ''walk away'' from them,to find their true ''glitter family'' who can be just as important if not more so than their ''blood family'', and then, you know, hit her up on Skype where they can sort out things. Yeah, cos it's always good when stranger adults are advising confused children to personally contact them.. Watch one minute of this video from 3.25 to 4.25.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8HIUJF--ho

Take a hike on yer bike, McKinnon and leave the kids alone, ok.

Jayzus.....there are so many issues with that I wouldn't even know where to start.

I can only imagine that's a lawsuit and/or child protection issue waiting to happen there.

astrofool

goat2 wrote: »

I don't think that if you were born male, that you could take in female dominated sport, that person was at an unfair advantage, stronger than a woman, men are born different to women in strength, should not be allowed take part in women sport,

Well that's the point of the handicap system, we already have it in some sports (golf for example) to create a level playing field for people with similar abilities, and in boxing/UFC which do it by weight to keep smaller men from being hurt by bigger men (although obviously a man and woman of the same weight is unlikely to be a fair matchup). We really don't see Klitschko want to fight Mayweather or McGregor want to fight Cormier.

I don't think it's workable, more because it would decimate female sport. Another option is to have "Sport" and "female born sport", and everyone can compete in the first, and only those born female (although some would argue that no one is 100% one thing or the other and that there could be grey areas) can compete in the second.

goat2

astrofool wrote: »

Well that's the point of the handicap system, we already have it in some sports (golf for example) to create a level playing field for people with similar abilities, and in boxing/UFC which do it by weight to keep smaller men from being hurt by bigger men (although obviously a man and woman of the same weight is unlikely to be a fair matchup). We really don't see Klitschko want to fight Mayweather or McGregor want to fight Cormier.

I don't think it's workable, more because it would decimate female sport. Another option is to have "Sport" and "female born sport", and everyone can compete in the first, and only those born female (although some would argue that no one is 100% one thing or the other and that there could be grey areas) can compete in the second.

Golf is not a contact sport, I do not agree with someone transgender getting in a ring with a person born female, fine to take part in non contact sport,

Zorya

wexie wrote: »

Jayzus.....there are so many issues with that I wouldn't even know where to start.

I can only imagine that's a lawsuit and/or child protection issue waiting to happen there.

It's common now. School policy in some places is to socially transition children without informing parents. US and UK - example - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/teachers-told-to-let-pupils-switch-gender-without-parents-consent-f3pdfg9hx

It could be considered to fall under the atomisation of traditional family structure that is part of post modern thought. What better way to allow the state assume loco parentis than to instigate mistrust etc? Anyways. I won't drag the topic off the (bicycle) track

Hector Savage

Wibbs wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b0ftfKFEJg

Crass, maybe, but true and provably so. Those two women in second and third place were robbed of their effort and placings. And no save me from some daft "the data isn't in yet". It is. If one had the unblinkered sense to read the volumes of data on the matter. Save me from some "crash test dummies were gender biased" daftness, because that goes a helluva long way towards proving my position.

This has gone beyond the utterly bloody ridiculous at this stage and frankly I've had enough of this complete fcuking nonsense masquerading as some half baked philosophy. Call me "transphobic"? Work away to your heart's content. I'm proud to not be "Factphobic".

Crazy, you can actually see she has a bulge there.
The world truly has lost it's collective mind.

Zorya

goat2 wrote: »

Golf is not a contact sport, I do not agree with someone transgender getting in a ring with a person born female, fine to take part in non contact sport,

Somebody explained in an earlier post how evolutionary adaptations in male and female have given males advantage when it comes to sports that do not depend on bodily strength like snooker, darts or golf etc. To do with aim and spacial stuff...I dunno, look back, it's there somewhere.

Calhoun

Zorya wrote: »

Rach - or should I say Dr Rachel McKinnon,Assistant Professor in the Department of Philosophy at the College of Charleston - is all about helping kids too. She advises children whose parents are ''unsupportive'' or ''disrespectful'' to ''walk away'' from them,to find their true ''glitter family'' who can be just as important if not more so than their ''blood family'', and then, you know, hit her up on Skype where they can sort out things. Yeah, cos it's always good when stranger adults are advising confused children to personally contact them.. Watch one minute of this video from 3.25 to 4.25.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8HIUJF--ho

Take a hike on yer bike, McKinnon and leave the kids alone, ok.

Scary thing is if you look at what trans activists go for in more liberal jurisdictions they essentially enable the law to remove children from parents.

PlaneSpeeking

Zorya wrote: »

Somebody explained in an earlier post how evolutionary adaptations in male and female have given males advantage when it comes to sports that do not depend on bodily strength like snooker, darts or golf etc. To do with aim and spacial stuff...I dunno, look back, it's there somewhere.

Yeah I've a mate who's wife is some sort of scientist (head goes fuzzy even at her job title - something evolutionary!!!).

She argued once in a paper about the fundamental physical, biological, chromosomal, evolutionary etc etc differences between men and women. Her University accused her of rampant sexism!

Men are better at a lot of things purely due to millions of years of evolution. It doesn't make us worse than them - just different!

Serena Williams has done as much to lessen the progress of women in sport as Martina Navratilova did to advance it. It's very sad to see.

Wibbs

Yeah, very basically men have evolved over time to be running jumping spear chuckers. Now of course individuals vary*, but in general men are faster stronger and more accurate at throwing things at other things. When it comes to sport where the weaker, awkward and uncoordinated types either never take it up, or get winnowed out early on, these differences become even more obvious.







*always have to throw in that caveat lest someone starts flipping out, because they have examples of outliers. Ignoring the point that they're bloody outliers

silverharp

Hector Savage wrote: »

Dick Lane, this stuff writes itself :pac:

PlaneSpeeking

silverharp wrote: »

Dick Lane, this stuff writes itself :pac:

Does that person really need 47 hashtags there or is it one for every made up f**king "gender" nowadays ????

Wibbs

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Men are better at a lot of things purely due to millions of years of evolution. It doesn't make us worse than them - just different!

The sexes come out pretty equal when everything is considered. Men might be on average physically stronger etc, but they've got weaker immune systems, fewer men used to make it to adulthood before modern medicine and men die younger too.

Zorya

Wibbs wrote: »

Yeah, very basically men have evolved over time to be running jumping spear chuckers. Now of course individuals vary*, but in general men are faster stronger and more accurate at throwing things at other things. When it comes to sport where the weaker, awkward and uncoordinated types either never take it up, or get winnowed out early on, these differences become even more obvious.







*always have to throw in that caveat lest someone starts flipping out, because they have examples of outliers. Ignoring the point that they're bloody outliers

Yes, and it works across the sexes too, women have better visual perception up close, which would have evolved from hunter gatherer style stuff I imagine. Guessing though.

Which explains why we have to clean the counter again after ye have cleaned it