Biological males in women's sport

ceadaoin.

Zorya wrote: »

A 5 year old would probably say give back the medal, you didn't win, ya big cheat. Pointing out the emperor's naked state.

Not for long. Kids are being indoctrinated into this nonsense in schools now. If you're a boy who likes dresses and pink sparkly things, or a strong girl who likes football and playing in mud, then you're probably just "in the wrong body" and can change it just like that. According to the guidance , your parents dont even have to be informed and there are people campaigning for children to be removed from parents who adopt the "watch and wait" approach and to remove the need for parental consent for treatment altogether.

These stereotypical ideas about gender used to be called sexism. Now it's progress.

Zorya

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Not for long. Kids are being indoctrinated into this nonsense in schools now. If you're a boy who likes dresses and pink sparkly things, or a strong girl who likes football and playing in mud, then you're probably just "in the wrong body" and can change it just like that. According to the guidance , your parents dont even have to be informed and there are people campaigning for children to be removed from parents who adopt the "watch and wait" approach and to remove the need for parental consent for treatment altogether.

These stereotypical ideas about gender used to be called sexism. Now it's progress.

People reading this might genuinely think what are those mad women wittering on about, this is niche, fringe, not happening in a way that bothers anyone. But I have a very close friend, who lives abroad (not going to say where), not in a big liberal enclave or anything, just a regular place, and she is not allowed to visit her small grandchildren without first specifically guaranteeing that she will in no way indicate to the children that they have a specific gender. She is no longer allowed to babysit alone because she appeared at first reluctant to fully embrace this idea. The newborn girl has been called by a male name. My friend - a lifelong egalitarian and all-round amazing lady - has been very distressed by this.

DEFTLEFTHAND

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Not for long. Kids are being indoctrinated into this nonsense in schools now. If you're a boy who likes dresses and pink sparkly things, or a strong girl who likes football and playing in mud, then you're probably just "in the wrong body" and can change it just like that. According to the guidance , your parents dont even have to be informed and there are people campaigning for children to be removed from parents who adopt the "watch and wait" approach and to remove the need for parental consent for treatment altogether.

These stereotypical ideas about gender used to be called sexism. Now it's progress.

I went through a 'girl' phase around 4 or 5. My parents still talk about it.

Loved dolls, barbie houses, cookers, clothes.

Then it passed and never returned.

If I had been born 20 yrs later my parents would probably have been encouraged to start me on some sort of 'treatment'.

Zorya

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I went through a 'girl' phase around 4 or 5. My parents still talk about it.

Loved dolls, barbie houses, cookers, clothes.

Then it passed and never returned.

If I had been born 20 yrs later my parents would probably have been encouraged to start me on some sort of 'treatment'.

Watchful Waiting is being rapidly replaced with Gender Affirmation.
There will be many law suits in 20 years, including from biologically female athletes.

http://www.sexologytoday.org/2018/10/american-academy-of-pediatrics-policy.html

(One of mine also expressed very much in the opposite sex at about 4, I didn't pay a blind bit of notice to it, and they completely moved on from it - they HATE me to even mention it at all I thought it was very sweet. And I think it is completely natural...)

iguana

Rachel McKinnon believes sociology is why men outperform women in sport.

Rachel McKinnon was raised male and would have been on the receiving end of the amazing social benefits that make men so big and strong.

Ergo, by her own logic, Rachel McKinnon's birth gender gives her an unfair advantage that makes her unbeatable in women's sports.

Zorya

Jen Wagner-Assali, who finished third at the UCI Masters Track Cycling World Championships, and initially expressed anger at McKinnon's victory has recanted her thought crimes and expressed public sorrow at her own mistake. She is going to ''continue educating'' herself.


(Poor woman has probably had a horrible time since she expressed her ''frustration''.)

https://twitter.com/jkwagnermd/status/1052926551279456257

ceadaoin.

Zorya wrote: »

Jen Wagner-Assali, who finished third at the UCI Masters Track Cycling World Championships, and initially expressed anger at McKinnon's victory has recanted her thought crimes and expressed public sorrow at her own mistake. She is going to ''continue educating'' herself.


(Poor woman has probably had a horrible time since she expressed her ''frustration''.)

https://twitter.com/jkwagnermd/status/1052926551279456257

Off to the gulag for reeducation for her (actually advocated by the LGBT society at Goldsmith's)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/11/soviet-labour-camps-compassionate-educational-institutions-say/

Zorya

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Off to the gulag for reeducation for her

https://twitchy.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Screen-Shot-2018-09-10-at-8.44.17-PM.png

I have found the rules she needs to study - https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/mbdx7n/100-ways-be-trans-ally-tips

Danzy

iguana wrote: »

Rachel McKinnon believes sociology is why men outperform women in sport.

Rachel McKinnon was raised male and would have been on the receiving end of the amazing social benefits that make men so big and strong.

Ergo, by her own logic, Rachel McKinnon's birth gender gives her an unfair advantage that makes her unbeatable in women's sports.

Book burning nonsense from McKinnon.

One can only believe **** like that via religious like indoctrination. Taliban level indoctrination and delusion.

GreeBo

We can communicate with various other species, including parrots for example.
I'd love to see how these trans athletes would respond to racing the 100M against a parrot who identified as a female human.

wexie

GreeBo wrote: »

We can communicate with various other species, including parrots for example.
I'd love to see how these trans athletes would respond to racing the 100M against a parrot who identified as a female human.

Would the parrot be allowed to fly or would it have to run?

Zorya

wexie wrote: »

Would the parrot be allowed to fly or would it have to run?

It's a post-modern parrot. Them are legs not wings and flying IS running. Pfft

Franz Von Peppercorn

Most normal people don’t know what’s going on here. The sports thing, if followed to its logical conclusion, would end elite sports for biological females. Be interesting to see how this pans out.

It can’t be that every country in the world will have transgender rights come the next Olympics but some will have biological males running in female competitions. How does the rest of the world react?

wexie

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

It can’t be that every country in the world will have transgender rights come the next Olympics but some will have biological males running in female competitions. How does the rest of the world react?

Be interesting to see alright, gonna be hilarious when the folks in the IOC have to sit down with the Russians and explain what are and aren't 'acceptable testosterone levels'.

Danzy

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Most normal people don’t know what’s going on here. The sports thing, if followed to its logical conclusion, would end elite sports for biological females. Be interesting to see how this pans out.

It can’t be that every country in the world will have transgender rights come the next Olympics but some will have biological males running in female competitions. How does the rest of the world react?

As far as I can see Olympic female medal winners would not rank in the top 5000 males in most running events.

The rest of the world, the biological women will be told to **** themselves, dissent and non conformity is seen as Fascism to the modern Priest caste.

benjamin d

I think in a way it's lucky for women's sport that this is only becoming an issue nowadays. Imagine if this became acceptable 30 or 40 years ago: the East Germans, Russians and Chinese would never have had to bulk up their women to the closest approximation of a man's physique when all they had to do was get their males to meet the minimum requirements for entering female competition. If this social engineering happened in a previous era women's sport would be long dead by now. As it is it's in serious danger.

McKinnon's and that Australian athlete's arguments on the Twitter thread linked above are at best paper thin and at worst utterly idiotic. They're fixating on how low their testosterone has to be as a distraction from the fact that they had the benefit of that same testosterone all their lives pre-transition. Her highlighting the fact that men are better at sports ON AVERAGE is the dumbest thing I've ever heard - if we were talking about average men and women on the street that's fine but an elite woman athlete is not a million miles above the level of an averagely good male athlete in that sport. I'm a below average club runner and regularly finish inside the top ten women's times in races. That's with minimal training, a weakness for fags and booze and takeaways, and no real structure other than it's the healthier side of my lifestyle.

Pug160

The physical differences between men and women are obvious and have probably been explained many times in the thread already. Although in saying that you always get exceptions and there will be sports or activities where the differences will be narrower. I do seem to recall the British runner Paula Radcliffe outperforming the other British men when she was at her peak (if I remember correctly). But at the high end of most sports there is usually a significant difference in peformance in favour of men. I'm not sure if it is some kind of illusion but I have always thought that women were more technical than men in some respects. I know they're hardly athletic endeavours but if you have ever watched a really good female snooker or pool player you'll usually see a textbook stance.

As for subject of the thread: it's clearly cheating. There is little to debate here. The only way forward is to create a new category but that would obviously depend on whether or not it is viable, for any number of reasons.

Danzy

benjamin d wrote: »

I think in a way it's lucky for women's sport that this is only becoming an issue nowadays. Imagine if this became acceptable 25 or 30 years ago: the East Germans, Russians and Chinese would never have had to bulk up their women to the closest approximation of a man's physique when all they had to do was get their males to meet the minimum requirements for entering female competition. If this social engineering happened in a previous era women's sport would be long dead by now. As it is it's in serious danger.

McKinnon's and that Australian athlete's arguments on the Twitter thread linked above are at best paper thin and at worst utterly idiotic. They're fixating on how low their testosterone has to be as a distraction from the fact that they had the benefit of that same testosterone all their lives pre-transition. Her highlighting the fact that men are better at sports ON AVERAGE is the dumbest thing I've ever heard - if we were talking about average men and women on the street that's fine but an elite woman athlete is not a million miles above the level of an averagely good male athlete in that sport. I'm a below average club runner and regularly finish inside the top ten women's times in races. That's with minimal training, a weakness for fags and booze and takeaways, and no real structure other than it's the healthier side of my lifestyle.

This is the thing doesn't matter if the testosterone is below the average woman for a decade, it was at a male level for most years up to 17 when most growing is done.

It's effect on muscle is only one part of the pie.

In similar size and weight men's lungs are up to 12% bigger.

Add on more height and weight and the difference is massive.

benjamin d

A non exhaustive list of male advantages over women physiologically:

Muscle to weight ratio - men's bodies have more muscle density than women's, making them faster, stronger, and better at accelerating

Skeletal - men's bones and skeletons are bigger, longer and broader than women's, adding strength and speed that women cannot match. Men's ligaments are also tighter and stronger than women's meaning that they are less prone to overuse injury and contribute to increased strength and power. The exception is a wider pelvis in women, which actually renders them slower at running and presumably cycling

Cardiovascular - men have more haemoglobin, larger lungs, bigger hearts and higher VO2Max than women, outperforming them totally in anything cardio related

It is simply not possible for a biological male to reduce the playing field to a level where it's fair for them to compete with women unless we use McKinnon's vacuous argument that men are only on average better than women and so insist that any trans athlete must prove themselves to have been average at best as a man before being allowed to compete with elite women.

GreeBo

can i identify as a woman to avail of cheaper car insurance?

Pug160

benjamin d wrote: »

A non exhaustive list of male advantages over women physiologically:

Muscle to weight ratio - men's bodies have more muscle density than women's, making them faster, stronger, and better at accelerating

Skeletal - men's bones and skeletons are bigger, longer and broader than women's, adding strength and speed that women cannot match. Men's ligaments are also tighter and stronger than women's meaning that they are less prone to overuse injury and contribute to increased strength and power. The exception is a wider pelvis in women, which actually renders them slower at running and presumably cycling

Cardiovascular - men have more haemoglobin, larger lungs, bigger hearts and higher VO2Max than women, outperforming them totally in anything cardio related

It is simply not possible for a biological male to reduce the playing field to a level where it's fair for them to compete with women unless we use McKinnon's vacuous argument that men are only on average better than women and so insist that any trans athlete must prove themselves to have been average at best as a man before being allowed to compete with elite women.

I had thought for quite some time that women had longer legs than men (body to leg ratio) but it was pointed out to me in an earlier thread that I may be mistaken (simply an optical illusion). There may be a fair bit of variation from individual to individial though, and certainly between races. Oddly enough it's not a subject I could find a lot of literature on. Arm length differences are definitely clear to see.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Danzy wrote: »

This is the thing doesn't matter if the testosterone is below the average woman for a decade, it was at a male level for most years up to 17 when most growing is done.

It's effect on muscle is only one part of the pie.

In similar size and weight men's lungs are up to 12% bigger.

Add on more height and weight and the difference is massive.

The testosterone tests will probably be made illegal anyhoo.

ceadaoin.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The testosterone tests will probably be made illegal anyhoo.

Well McKinnon claims they are a human rights violation anyway. Sounds like she's pissed off that as a "6ft, 200lb powerlifter", she is being stopped from bulking up even more. Poor thing

autumn2018

i don't see any problem here
if women want to win medals there going to have to up their game

kildare lad

This planet is getting more confusing by the day

DrPhilG

GreeBo wrote: »

can i identify as a woman to avail of cheaper car insurance?

Certainly!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/change-gender-identification-insurance-alberta-1.4754416

2 Scoops

DrPhilG wrote: »

Certainly!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/change-gender-identification-insurance-alberta-1.4754416

From this link; https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2018/07/30/man-changes-gender-car-insurance/

“It was pretty simple,” he claimed. “I just basically asked for it and told them that I identify as a woman, or I’d like to identify as a woman, and he wrote me the letter I wanted.”

Bolded part is why scrutiny must exist, anyone can walk into a doctors office a man and come out 5 minutes later legally a Woman.

Franz Von Peppercorn

2 Scoops wrote: »

From this link; https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2018/07/30/man-changes-gender-car-insurance/

“It was pretty simple,” he claimed. “I just basically asked for it and told them that I identify as a woman, or I’d like to identify as a woman, and he wrote me the letter I wanted.”

Bolded part is why scrutiny must exist, anyone can walk into a doctors office a man and come out 5 minutes later legally a Woman.

Nothing too difficult here either.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/changing_to_your_preferred_gender.html

DEFTLEFTHAND

Somebody mentioned that estrogen hormone therapy is part of M to F transition.

This will be a legal minefield a few yrs down the road.


High levels of estrogen significantly increase the risk of cancer in men.

wexie

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Somebody mentioned that estrogen hormone therapy is part of M to F transition.

This will be a legal minefield a few yrs down the road.

High levels of estrogen significantly increase the risk of cancer in men.

But why would that become an issue if they're women now?

Oh yeah, I forgot....science