Biological males in women's sport

Elmo Murphy

klaaaz wrote: »

Surgery does alter the sex as well as the hormones to make them female. The question on puberty is not straightforward, there are born females with large physical traits like that actress Gwendoline Christie from the tv series Game of Thrones, she's at 6ft 3 inches with the strong build to match. (she's the warrior Brienne in the series). According to some judges here, she would be banned from sporting competition because of her large physique and probably judged as being a man! :eek:

Gwendoline Christie is a woman, therefore your point is complete and utter bull.

Honestly the levels of stupidity people have to go to in order to back up the type of argument Rachel MacKinnon makes just proves how wrong anyone who supports transwomen competing in womens sports is.

Franz Von Peppercorn

klaaaz wrote: »

Surgery does alter the sex as well as the hormones to make them female. The question on puberty is not straightforward, there are born females with large physical traits like that actress Gwendoline Christie from the tv series Game of Thrones, she's at 6ft 3 inches with the strong build to match. (she's the warrior Brienne in the series). According to some judges here, she would be banned from sporting competition because of her large physique and probably judged as being a man! :eek:

Literally nobody said that. She was born a woman.

The argument runs the other way. People who support biological males in sport tend to bring up female outliers and say “isn’t that also unfair”.

Surgery is fairly irrelevant to this argument. It’s not a requirement under ioc rules. Low testosterone is.

ceadaoin.

klaaaz wrote: »

Surgery does alter the sex as well as the hormones to make them female. The question on puberty is not straightforward, there are born females with large physical traits like that actress Gwendoline Christie from the tv series Game of Thrones, she's at 6ft 3 inches with the strong build to match. (she's the warrior Brienne in the series). According to some judges here, she would be banned from sporting competition because of her large physique and probably judged as being a man! :eek:

Yes, once a trans woman has surgery she has periods, can get pregnant and needs regular smear tests right? Trans men can get erections and produce sperm, right? No. Surgery does not alter sex, it is a superficial fix . If you think it does you are extremely ignorant/stupid or you are delusional. Maybe both I suppose.

Also, the vast majority of trans people choose not to have surgery, and I don't blame them I'd say it's a very extreme and painful thing to go through.

No one would say Gwendolyn Christie should be banned from competing against females because she is a female herself. We are saying that it's unfair for males (regardless of their gender identity) to compete against females. It's not that hard to understand . Or maybe it is for some

Venom

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Fairly common? Maybe in men's MMA? A female had never been injured like that in a fight before

As far as I can recall women started refusing to fight Fox. Probably explains their career death

Ronda Rowsey refused as did other top female fighters.

statesaver wrote: »

He lost one, brilliant. Hope she destroyed him

Chris Cyborg absolutly wrecked him due to pure skill level but considering she is one of the best of the best in her sport and Fox was a nobody when fighting against men, it really shows how much "genetic help" Fox had when compeating against real women.

GreeBo

klaaaz wrote: »

Surgery does alter the sex as well as the hormones to make them female. The question on puberty is not straightforward, there are born females with large physical traits like that actress Gwendoline Christie from the tv series Game of Thrones, she's at 6ft 3 inches with the strong build to match. (she's the warrior Brienne in the series). According to some judges here, she would be banned from sporting competition because of her large physique and probably judged as being a man! :eek:

lets go with this nonsense point.
There are very few women who could beat Gwendolene Christie for strength and size but there are tens of thousands of men if not more, who could.

Why is that?

Wibbs

klaaaz wrote: »

Surgery does alter the sex as well as the hormones to make them female.

You can type it as often as you want to, but it does not alter the gender of the individual, they are still the biological gender they were.

The question on puberty is not straightforward,

It's pretty straightforward outside of medical conditions. As I noted earlier this can be demonstrated by Female to Male Trans folks. The addition of prescribed testosterone bulks them up, widens their shoulders, increases muscle mass, while decreasing fat and even causes bone growth in the skull and makes them more masculine. This is after going through puberty as biological females. Biological males transitioning have generally a harder time "passing" as that bone growth has already happened and it's physiologically easier to add tissue than subtract it(unless they very slight in build to start with).

there are born females with large physical traits like that actress Gwendoline Christie from the tv series Game of Thrones, she's at 6ft 3 inches with the strong build to match. (she's the warrior Brienne in the series). According to some judges here, she would be banned from sporting competition because of her large physique and probably judged as being a man! :eek:

Ms Christie is tall, well above average hight yes, but will be in possession of an XX chromosome, the primary and secondary sexual characteristics and reproductive system and fat to lean mass ratio of her biological gender. And she may play a warrior in a TV series, where even teeny tiny actresses usually throw massive actors around in make believe fights, but in reality a male warrior of 5'10" would almost certainly put a swift end to her in an actual fight.

klaaaz

ceadaoin. wrote: »

We need "back up" to show that surgery doesn't literally change a person's sex. Seriously?

Say a person had surgery and hundreds of years from now their remains were discovered and examined for some reason, would they be identified as their chosen gender or their actual biological sex?

Based on what? We need to preserve their brains too instead of relying on just their bones.

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Yes, once a trans woman has surgery she has periods, can get pregnant and needs regular smear tests right? Trans men can get erections and produce sperm, right? No. Surgery does not alter sex, it is a superficial fix . If you think it does you are extremely ignorant/stupid or you are delusional. Maybe both I suppose

No one would say Gwendolyn Christie should be banned from competing against females because she is a female herself. We are saying that it's unfair for males (regardless of their gender identity) to compete against females. It's not that hard to understand . Or maybe it is for some

You've listed only some characteristics of a particular sex. Some women cannot get periods or get pregnant, it's your view that they are not women.

Gwendolyn has the physicality build of a male, a few posters a few pages back would have judged her as a trans woman based solely on her sheer size. That's the level at which judges here judge a person just by looking at pictures.

rainbowtrout

klaaaz wrote: »

Surgery does alter the sex as well as the hormones to make them female. The question on puberty is not straightforward, there are born females with large physical traits like that actress Gwendoline Christie from the tv series Game of Thrones, she's at 6ft 3 inches with the strong build to match. (she's the warrior Brienne in the series). According to some judges here, she would be banned from sporting competition because of her large physique and probably judged as being a man! :eek:

She was born as a woman and is a woman, just a very tall woman. A man who undergoes surgery to transition to a woman still has XY chromosomes in every cell in his body. It is not possible to change this. Men have greater muscle to mass ratio than women, and couple with that stronger, tendons, ligaments and bones. Men have on average 10% more muscle mass than women, and 10% less fat mass. Their bone density is also greater. This gives them a huge advantage in sports if they declare as female.


Go and have a look at the results of the 100m finals for the 2016 olympics. Out of the 70-odd men who ran in the 8 heats for the 100m only three did not beat the time of the woman who won gold in the woman's 100m final. That's the difference between men and women in elite sport.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/rio-2016/results/sports/athletics/mens-100m

https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/rio-2016/results/sports/athletics/womens-100m

No one here would ban Gwendoline Christie from women's competitions, because she is a woman. :rolleyes:

Elmo Murphy

klaaaz wrote: »

Based on what? We need to preserve their brains too instead of relying on just their bones.



You've listed only some characteristics of a particular sex. Some women cannot get periods or get pregnant, it's your view that they are not women.

Gwendolyn has the physicality build of a male, a few posters a few pages back would have judged her as a trans woman based solely on her sheer size. That's the level at which judges here judge a person just by looking at pictures.

No she doesn't.

She's just a big woman.

wexie

klaaaz wrote: »

Based on what? We need to preserve their brains too instead of relying on just their bones.

No, forensic science tends to get it right based on the pelvic bone and skull pretty much all the time

ceadaoin.

klaaaz wrote: »

Based on what? We need to preserve their brains too instead of relying on just their bones.



You've listed only some characteristics of a particular sex. Some women cannot get periods or get pregnant, it's your view that they are not women.

Gwendolyn has the physicality build of a male, a few posters a few pages back would have judged her as a trans woman based solely on her sheer size. That's the level at which judges here judge a person just by looking at pictures.

There is no way to tell whether the brain identifies as a man or a woman either. There is no evidence of "brain sex", or any biological basis for transgenderism.


https://www.nbcnews.com/better/wellness/can-you-tell-which-brains-are-male-neither-can-these-n471751

A woman who can't get pregnant is still a woman. I would certainly never say that she isn't. Why are you trying to wrongly ascribe these opinions to me?

Woman - "of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes."

That definition covers everyone with xx chromosomes , whether they can carry a child or not.

No, it's clear that gwendoline Christie is a female. The only person saying otherwise is you. Would you stop with this nonsense. If your argument is based on lies about what people "think" or "would say" , as well as nonsense biological "facts", you really don't have an argument at all.

Jack Moore

statesaver wrote: »

He lost one, brilliant. Hope she destroyed him

Read the details you’ll enjoy it
Basically the other fighter sat on her and puncher her face in
The bell rang but the ref missed it
The ref called a halt a tko
Then the umpires pointed out the bell had gone
So it went to the next round
And the other fighter did it again
So fox got punched into submission twice

https://youtu.be/remsCdsLLJM

klaaaz

ceadaoin. wrote: »

There is no way to tell whether the brain identifies as a man or a woman either. There is no evidence of "brain sex".

https://www.nbcnews.com/better/wellness/can-you-tell-which-brains-are-male-neither-can-these-n471751

A woman who can't get pregnant is still a woman. I would certainly never say that she isn't. Why are you trying to wrongly ascribe these opinions to me?

Woman - "of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes."

That definition covers everyone with xx chromosomes , whether they can carry a child or not.

No, it's clear that gwendoline Christie is a female. Would you stop with this nonsense. If your argument is based on lies about what people "think" or "would say" , as well as nonsense biological "facts", you really don't have an argument at all.

Your post derided women, as in your view they need to get pregnant and have periods to be women. Now you're backtracking because of your mistake.

As for brains..
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm
"Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to findings to be presented in Barcelona, at the European Society of Endocrinology annual meeting, ECE 2018. These findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool for earlier identification of transgenderism in young people."

I do take the endocrinologists view who study brains than some poster's unqualified view here.

As for Gwendoline, there were pictures posted up here a few pages ago with posters judging how a person looks male or not based how they physically look to the eye. And now they too are backtracking on their hypocrisy when they look at Gwendoline.

Jack Moore

Venom wrote: »

Ronda Rowsey refused as did other top female fighters.





Chris Cyborg absolutly wrecked him due to pure skill level but considering she is one of the best of the best in her sport and Fox was a nobody when fighting against men, it really shows how much "genetic help" Fox had when compeating against real women.

Fox never fought Cyborg
Or in ufc
Or in invitica
Or in strike force
So couldn’t have fought rousey or any other top fighter

ceadaoin.

klaaaz wrote: »

Your post derided women, as in your view they need to get pregnant and have periods to be women. Now you're backtracking because of your mistake.

As for brains..
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm
"Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to findings to be presented in Barcelona, at the European Society of Endocrinology annual meeting, ECE 2018. These findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool for earlier identification of transgenderism in young people."

I do take the endocrinologists view who study brains than some poster's unqualified view here.

As for Gwendoline, there were pictures posted up here a few pages ago with posters judging how a person looks male or not based how they physically look to the eye. And now they too are backtracking on their hypocrisy when they look at Gwendoline.

I did not deride women ffs. A female is "of the sex" that can do those things, regardless of whether that particular individual does or not, they are still a female. A male never can be

So let's go the other way. If you think that surgery literally makes a trans woman female, and being a female is nothing to do with chromosomes or biology, then you must think a vaginas only function is a hole to be penetrated. That's pretty offensive to me as a woman.

GreeBo

klaaaz wrote: »

Your post derided women, as in your view they need to get pregnant and have periods to be women. Now you're backtracking because of your mistake.

As for brains..
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm
"Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to findings to be presented in Barcelona, at the European Society of Endocrinology annual meeting, ECE 2018. These findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool for earlier identification of transgenderism in young people."

I do take the endocrinologists view who study brains than some poster's unqualified view here.

As for Gwendoline, there were pictures posted up here a few pages ago with posters judging how a person looks male or not based how they physically look to the eye. And now they too are backtracking on their hypocrisy when they look at Gwendoline.

Stop trolling troll.

GreeBo

Jack Moore wrote: »

Read the details you’ll enjoy it
Basically the other fighter sat on her and puncher her face in
The bell rang but the ref missed it
The ref called a halt a tko
Then the umpires pointed out the bell had gone
So it went to the next round
And the other fighter did it again
So fox got punched into submission twice

https://youtu.be/remsCdsLLJM

The funny thing there (or one of them!) is that his opponent used to actually wrestle against the boys in school!

Venom

Jack Moore wrote: »

Fox never fought Cyborg
Or in ufc
Or in invitica
Or in strike force
So couldn’t have fought rousey or any other top fighter

My bad, it was Ashlee Evens Smith in CFA.

Wibbs

ceadaoin. wrote: »

There is no way to tell whether the brain identifies as a man or a woman either.

Actually there are some differences in brain structure between men and women. I would strongly suspect trans individuals would show more of the opposite gender stuff going on.

klaaaz wrote: »

You've listed only some characteristics of a particular sex. Some women cannot get periods or get pregnant, it's your view that they are not women.

Emotive nonsense masquerading as debate. Never mind that not a single person has even suggested this. Some women who don't menstruate or fail to conceive are like that because of biological medical conditions. They are still biological women with XX chromosomes and all the rest. If in the morning my meat and two veg were hacked off by a out of control drone that smashed through my window, I'd be extremely unhappy, but I'd still be biologically male.

Gwendolyn has the physicality build of a male,

No, she does bloody not. Jesus. *heads keyboard*



Her only outlier is her height. If we didn't know that we'd not think much of anything was different about her. She has quite the "womanly" figure as it happens. Very rounded arms, small in proportion rib cage and joints, wide of hip and long of leg. Her face shows the typical almost neotenous proportions we think of as female. Small in jaw, and overall face, high wide forehead etc. Compare and contrast with McKinnon's frame.

One eyed Jack

klaaaz wrote: »

As for brains..
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm
"Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to findings to be presented in Barcelona, at the European Society of Endocrinology annual meeting, ECE 2018. These findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool for earlier identification of transgenderism in young people."

I do take the endocrinologists view who study brains than some poster's unqualified view here.

As you’re perfectly entitled to do, obviously, it fits with your already held beliefs about people who are transgender. However, even just reading the sentence alone that you quoted, it appears to me that the endocrinologists are using backwards rationalisation to explain the results of their observations. Using fMRI scans to determine anything you didn’t already assume about pre-adolescent humans would tell you fcukall, to be frank.

All it would identify is a nice looking image of a brain, and not much else, as any neurobiologist who wasn’t also an ideologist would question the findings on the basis of neuroplasticity alone, without even needing to get into concepts like social and cultural conditioning which would also influence brain development and psychobiology.

Jack Moore

GreeBo wrote: »

The funny thing there (or one of them!) is that his opponent used to actually wrestle against the boys in school!

In American schools the boys and girls wrestle together till a certain age

klaaaz

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I did not deride women ffs. A female is "of the sex" that can do those things, regardless of whether that particular individual does or not, they are still a female. A male never can be

So let's go the other way. If you think that surgery literally makes a trans woman female, and being a woman is nothing to do with chromosomes or biology, then you must think a vaginas only function is a hole to be penetrated. That's pretty offensive to me as a woman.

Your own words

ceadoin wrote:

Yes, once a trans woman has surgery she has periods, can get pregnant and needs regular smear tests right? Trans men can get erections and produce sperm, right? No. Surgery does not alter sex, it is a superficial fix

The medical community think surgery (that medical transition) makes a female, they who are experts in biology are wrong too in your view?

Wibbs

GreeBo wrote: »

Stop trolling troll.

Nope, they're not "trolling". I've known and met a few people who genuinely believe similarly. Their ideology, somewhat understandable depending on context, trumps any biology or science, no matter how basic that conflicts with the ideology.

GreeBo

Jack Moore wrote: »

In American schools the boys and girls wrestle together till a certain age

The way they said it I believe it was more than the normal level...

Franz Von Peppercorn

klaaaz wrote: »

Based on what? We need to preserve their brains too instead of relying on just their bones.

You think when archaeologists find bones from previous eras and say it’s “male 25-30” or “40 year old female” they need the brain? the brain has long gone.

You've listed only some characteristics of a particular sex. Some women cannot get periods or get pregnant, it's your view that they are not women.

You keep telling people their views. Most people are saying “born a biological female is female”.

Gwendolyn has the physicality build of a male, a few posters a few pages back would have judged her as a trans woman based solely on her sheer size. That's the level at which judges here judge a person just by looking at pictures.

You are fighting your own strawman again.

Wibbs

klaaaz wrote: »

The medical community think surgery (that medical transition) makes a female, they who are experts in biology are wrong too in your view?

Any doctor who states that is stating ideology, not biology, because it is a scientific nonsense.

Wibbs

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You think when they find bones from previous eras and say “male 25-30”, the brain has long gone.

Aye, but DNA is often preserved and more and more studied. They can go back and look at 100,000 year old Neandertal bones and can tell the gender. Hell, they've done it from a single tooth.

Jack Moore

GreeBo wrote: »

The way they said it I believe it was more than the normal level...

I played s lot of soccer as a kid and up till u16 we had a girl play with us cos she was good enough to
She went on to play to a far highter level than we did but I like to think playing with us toughened her up.

klaaaz

Wibbs wrote: »

Emotive nonsense masquerading as debate. Never mind that not a single person has even suggested this. Some women who don't menstruate or fail to conceive are like that because of biological medical conditions. They are still biological women with XX chromosomes and all the rest. If in the morning my meat and two veg were hacked off by a out of control drone that smashed through my window, I'd be extremely unhappy, but I'd still be biologically male.

Apparently that poster has strict definitions on what a woman should be. By the way, there are women who have XY chromosomes, are they not women either?
If your meat and veg were hacked off in that unfortunate drone accident, no you will not automatically become a woman, you become a castrated man.

Wibbs wrote: »

No, she does bloody not. Jesus. *heads keyboard*

Her only outlier is her height. If we didn't know that we'd not think much of anything was different about her. She has quite the "womanly" figure as it happens. Very rounded arms, small in proportion rib cage and joints, wide of hip and long of leg. Her face shows the typical almost neotenous proportions we think of as female. Small in jaw, and overall face, high wide forehead etc. Compare and contrast with McKinnon's frame.

That's her dolled up on a night out. I cannot post links to images yet(boards rule), there are quite a few pics of her without makeup in less feminine attire. Interesting definition you have there of what a woman should look like, thou shall not judge?

Jack Moore

GreeBo wrote: »

The way they said it I believe it was more than the normal level...

Im sure it was
She’s # 11 in the 135 ufc these days so she ways probably a great wrestler