Biological males in women's sport

Widdershins

wexie wrote: »

I think there's a world of difference between accepting that someone wants to live as a woman, would like to be treated as a woman, addressed as a woman......aaaaand actually believing they are a woman.

I agree but what does being treated like a woman mean?

ArrBee

Widdershins wrote: »

You didn't specify whether this applies to any male bodied person who asks you to call them a woman. Can I ask what would happen if the person then expects to use a female only facility and their presence made you uncomfortable? If not you, maybe another natal woman is present and she is uncomfortable/afraid because of their presence? For example this has happened in abused womens shelters in recent months.

I believe this is a polite fiction. If you've participated in a polite fiction to spare the person's feelings, are you confident you can go against that if you need to?

Or would you prefer to keep the polite fiction up regardless of any negative consequences? Would you say the transwoman's rights supersede the natal woman's rights when it comes to the sex based safe space?

Maybe to you it's not a polite fiction, maybe you do believe the person asking to be called a woman must be a real woman in every sense of the word, but how would you square that with the view of the natal woman who does not accept that this person is also a woman?

I'm just trying to explain the problem I have with defining anyone as a woman on the basis of self identification alone.

I have transsexual friends. I am happy to use their chosen female name. I'm prepared to refer to them in feminine terms on the basis that it goes no further than that, but they haven't actually asked anyone to call the a woman. I want them to feel comfortable. They themselves just refer to themselves as Transsexuals or T's for short, not ''women''.

excellent post.

mcmoustache

Zorya wrote: »

Hahahah!! ''Socially Aware Stevxn'' the account on Twitter - I cannot tell if it is a parody account or not, that is how bad things are! Could he really be such a total fecken wimp?

Edit - my detectors were faulty there for a minute, it's a joke account (has to be!). Well played Stevxn

Go to the account and check out the other tweets and read his bio. It's gold.

Zorya

Widdershins wrote: »

I agree but I've personally never seen people uncivilly disagree with transactivists. I've disagreed with some prominent TRA's numerous times (on sex self ID law and the claim that biological sex is a social construct and a birth certificate is ''just a piece of paper'') and I find the civil mask slips and I'm at the receiving end of comments about being choked on their ''lady d*ck'', set on fire, raped, punched in the face. And the same people maintain they are persecuted and bullied and women saying no to them is transphobic. Just my experience.

.

That's horrible. I have heard of that kind of thing happening, but I am quiet enough on social media and have never experienced anything like that. Just once on here I got a terrible PM on the issue.
By uncivil discourse I guess I mean potentially me!! I get so mad about the children-based gender ideology stuff that I feel like being really rude sometimes and have to hold back.

wexie

Widdershins wrote: »

You didn't specify whether this applies to any male bodied person who asks you to call them a woman. Can I ask what would happen if the person then expects to use a female only facility and their presence made you uncomfortable? If not you, maybe another natal woman is present and she is uncomfortable/afraid because of their presence? For example this has happened in abused womens shelters in recent months.

I believe this is a polite fiction. If you've participated in a polite fiction to spare the person's feelings, are you confident you can go against that if you need to?

Or would you prefer to keep the polite fiction up regardless of any negative consequences? Would you say the transwoman's rights supersede the natal woman's rights when it comes to the sex based safe space?

Maybe to you it's not a polite fiction, maybe you do believe the person asking to be called a woman must be a real woman in every sense of the word, but how would you square that with the view of the natal woman who does not accept that this person is also a woman?

I'm just trying to explain the problem I have with defining anyone as a woman on the basis of self identification alone.

I have transsexual friends. I am happy to use their chosen female name. I'm prepared to refer to them in feminine terms on the basis that it goes no further than that, but they haven't actually asked anyone to call the a woman. I want them to feel comfortable. They themselves just refer to themselves as Transsexuals or T's for short, not ''women''.

Widdershins wrote: »

I agree but what does being treated like a woman mean?

I don't know to be honest, I think a lot of these things should be looked at on a case by case basis. There may well be trans people that need to have access to women's shelters and are the kind of person where the people in there don't feel uncomfortable around them or are threatened by them. Let's face it, they aren't all Karen White.

But from what I understand the biggest problem standing in the way of things being looked at on a case by case basis at the moment is the legislation....

And like I said earlier I think we're going to see more and more problem cases, probably in scenario's nobody has even thought of. Which will hopefully, eventually lead to legislation more fit to everybody's needs, lets just hope it won't cause too many serious issues in the meantime.

In the grand scheme of things sports isn't all that big of a deal, maybe it might even help bring some issues to the forefront.

Widdershins

wexie wrote: »

I don't know to be honest, I think a lot of these things should be looked at on a case by case basis. There may well be trans people that need to have access to women's shelters and are the kind of person where the people in there don't feel uncomfortable around them or are threatened by them. Let's face it, they aren't all Karen White.

But from what I understand the biggest problem standing in the way of things being looked at on a case by case basis at the moment is the legislation....

And like I said earlier I think we're going to see more and more problem cases, probably in scenario's nobody has even thought of. Which will hopefully, eventually lead to legislation more fit to everybody's needs, lets just hope it won't cause too many serious issues in the meantime.

In the grand scheme of things sports isn't all that big of a deal, maybe it might even help bring some issues to the forefront.

This report provides evidence from professionals and survivors on why women need women only spaces (free of male bodied people). Imo they must remain women only in every sense of the word. I don't see why the same couldn't be said r.e transwomen and why they should use shelters for abused men, as the abused men, by the same token, aren't likely to hurt a transwoman. But if there aren't enough transwomens shelters then that should be looked at instead. (I know there are some, but I think the lack of demand forced some closures)https://fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/FPFW_report_19SEPT2018.pdf

GreeBo

wexie wrote: »

In the grand scheme of things sports isn't all that big of a deal, maybe it might even help bring some issues to the forefront.

Maybe not to you, but I think you need to remember that for some people it's their livelihood. For others its a way out of poverty, for you its simply entertainment.

ceadaoin.

wexie wrote: »

I don't know to be honest, I think a lot of these things should be looked at on a case by case basis. There may well be trans people that need to have access to women's shelters and are the kind of person where the people in there don't feel uncomfortable around them or are threatened by them. Let's face it, they aren't all Karen White.

But women still might feel uncomfortable around a male bodied person, regardless of how nice they are. Look at the case going to court in California. Women were forced to shower with a person with a penis. Now, that person was allegedly making sexual remarks to them but even if they weren't, that's a pretty uncomfortable situation all round anyway. I don't think a woman who has experience abuse should be judged for feeling that way.

Why can't trans activists use their energy to campaign set up shelters specifically catering to trans people rather than attacking women who don't agree with them?

The only reason women shelters exist is because women saw a need for them and worked together to set them up. Women have repeatedly said no, that they feel more comfortable in a female only space. Why is this disregarded? It's the same with sports. Women's sports was set up specifically to give women a level playing field and the ability to participate in sports at an elite level. It's taken years to get to the point where female sportspeople get the level of respect they do now. Why should they have to be "nice" and jeopardise their own success or safety in the process?

Widdershins

Zorya wrote: »

Rach - or should I say Dr Rachel McKinnon,Assistant Professor in the Department of Philosophy at the College of Charleston - is all about helping kids too. She advises children whose parents are ''unsupportive'' or ''disrespectful'' to ''walk away'' from them,to find their true ''glitter family'' who can be just as important if not more so than their ''blood family'', and then, you know, hit her up on Skype where they can sort out things. Yeah, cos it's always good when stranger adults are advising confused children to personally contact them.. Watch one minute of this video from 3.25 to 4.25.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8HIUJF--ho

Take a hike on yer bike, McKinnon and leave the kids alone, ok.

Some more information on the organisations who advise schools and government on trans policies.There's an awful lot of frankly very creepy stuff like McKinnon's ''sparkle family'' remark.

Lily Maynard is fantastic.https://lilymaynard.wordpress.com/2018/03/31/but-nobody-is-encouraging-kids-to-be-trans-2/

The following is some advice R.E school sports, from one of the schools toolkits devised by Mermaids!

https://notthenewsinbriefs.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/east-sussex-toolkit-sports.jpg?w=632&h=354&fbclid=IwAR2vAH5Kl3OBR0Bef6gphUaAhkFLh_dZD47lN2mwpAGZZqJOKvS758XxHZs

And hypotherapy for ''transphobes''? https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside?fbclid=IwAR0mfB4vNRjrcPkPokcog4MYuHsFquATQAqTbnXDTY-JNrFG_RiYTZ3sXYo

Franz Von Peppercorn

Widdershins wrote: »

I agree but I've personally never seen people uncivilly disagree with transactivists. I've disagreed with some prominent TRA's numerous times (on sex self ID law and the claim that biological sex is a social construct and a birth certificate is ''just a piece of paper'') and I find the civil mask slips and I'm at the receiving end of comments about being choked on their ''lady d*ck'', set on fire, raped, punched in the face. And the same people maintain they are persecuted and bullied and women saying no to them is transphobic. Just my experience.

What bothers me is that those on the TRA side who purport to be interested in reasonable discussion don't accept my/our ''no''. They keep placing the responsibility on women to ''find a solution that accommodates everyone''. That would be ok in one sense, as long as they accepted that the solution won't involve self identified women with male bodies (with no prerequisites or safeguarding/gatekeeping) using vital sex segregated safe spaces. What they're really saying is ''I'll keep repeating myself until you give in/ agree''. It's like a two pronged attack, on the one side there's overt aggression, on the other there's wheedling 'polite' coercion.

It's interesting that men are not obliged to find the solution.

You should record or report all of this abuse. Take a screen shot.

Franz Von Peppercorn

SmoothMalts wrote: »

For anyone wondering - it translates to 'I find the society I live in confusing so I'll just borrow one of the two mainstream ideologies from American politics with a complete disregard the fact that such ways of thinking don't apply very well outside that particular country or culture (or even within it.)"


Wow, binary is such a expressive language.

I think he’s not serious.

SmoothMalts

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I think he’s not serious.

The whole 'NPC' thing is an American meme implying that people who hold what they think of as left-wing views are just repeating what they here without any internal thought process. The irony is that it's so close to saying something about politics as a whole, but people have chosen to apply it only to those they don't agree with.



https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/npc-wojak

Danzy

SmoothMalts wrote: »

The whole 'NPC' thing is an American meme implying that people who hold what they think of as left-wing views are just repeating what they here without any internal thought process. The irony is that it's so close to saying something about politics as a whole, but people have chosen to apply it only to those they don't agree with.

.

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/npc-wojak

Don't usually follow memes etc but that NPC one is cutting to the bone accurate.

pleas advice

thanks for that link, now i have a deeper appreciation of this meme

https://i.4pcdn.org/pol/1540376361696.jpg

Edit, you gotta admire his commitment to the persona

Calhoun

SmoothMalts wrote: »

The whole 'NPC' thing is an American meme implying that people who hold what they think of as left-wing views are just repeating what they here without any internal thought process. The irony is that it's so close to saying something about politics as a whole, but people have chosen to apply it only to those they don't agree with.



https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/npc-wojak

Pretty much like any label thrown out from either side of the political divide. Its funnier with the left though as they generally use labels to shut down conversation with people they disagree with.

Calhoun

Widdershins wrote: »

Some more information on the organisations who advise schools and government on trans policies.There's an awful lot of frankly very creepy stuff like McKinnon's ''sparkle family'' remark.

Lily Maynard is fantastic.https://lilymaynard.wordpress.com/2018/03/31/but-nobody-is-encouraging-kids-to-be-trans-2/

The following is some advice R.E school sports, from one of the schools toolkits devised by Mermaids!

https://notthenewsinbriefs.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/east-sussex-toolkit-sports.jpg?w=632&h=354&fbclid=IwAR2vAH5Kl3OBR0Bef6gphUaAhkFLh_dZD47lN2mwpAGZZqJOKvS758XxHZs

And hypotherapy for ''transphobes''? https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside?fbclid=IwAR0mfB4vNRjrcPkPokcog4MYuHsFquATQAqTbnXDTY-JNrFG_RiYTZ3sXYo

I would say in the next generation we are going to have some fairly dodgy stories coming out of these sparkle families.

However i wont be surprised because around the same time we will be seeing the result of some fairly questionable drugs being use from a transition perspective.

ceadaoin.

How has mermaids been allowed to supply information to schools when the high court has ruled that the chairty was to have no contact with a family who were harmed by their ideology.
A child was forced to live as the opposite gender by his mother and even now Susie green and mermaids deny that this was the case. Despite the boy saying he is not a girl and doesn't want to be one, they still think they did nothing wrong.

I'm sure they aren't the only ones who have suffered as a result of mermaids advice, especially given how much influence they wield over the policies of many organisations.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4960080/Transgender-charity-banned-contacting-family.html

Widdershins

ceadaoin. wrote: »

How has mermaids been allowed to supply information to schools when the high court has ruled that the chairty was to have no contact with a family who were harmed by their ideology.
A child was forced to live as the opposite gender by his mother and even now Susie green and mermaids deny that this was the case. Despite the boy saying he is not a girl and doesn't want to be one, they still think they did nothing wrong.

I'm sure they aren't the only ones who have suffered as a result of mermaids advice, especially given how much influence they wield over the policies of many organisations.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4960080/Transgender-charity-banned-contacting-family.html

I've spoken to mothers who said children were affected by said 'charity'. I think Lily Maynard may have had some experience too.

I hope this is not too far off topic but I saw this news this evening and it's an example of other important areas affected by sex self-ID. How can they compile statistics on sexual violence and base adequate safeguarding policy on those statistics when UK police allow criminals to self id?


https://www.herts.police.uk/news-and-appeals/woman-sentenced-for-historical-sexual-offences-against-a-child-1970?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=SocialSignIn&fbclid=IwAR1WFMn-0wTah-cBcoWDIUVkcCETcuBLZiMFUmm_JjcUlnL54o8d8m8IRyo

Danzy

ceadaoin. wrote: »

How has mermaids been allowed to supply information to schools when the high court has ruled that the chairty was to have no contact with a family who were harmed by their ideology.
A child was forced to live as the opposite gender by his mother and even now Susie green and mermaids deny that this was the case. Despite the boy saying he is not a girl and doesn't want to be one, they still think they did nothing wrong.

I'm sure they aren't the only ones who have suffered as a result of mermaids advice, especially given how much influence they wield over the policies of many organisations.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4960080/Transgender-charity-banned-contacting-family.html

When you put ideological or religious fanatics in charge it will end in tears.

mazcon

wexie wrote: »

It's absolutely mind boggling how we ended up in a situation where questioning something like that has become frowned upon. Never mind considered discrimination.

And at the same time voting to decide whether or not to get rid of the crime of blasphemy!

pleas advice

ceadaoin. wrote: »

How has mermaids been allowed to supply information to schools when the high court has ruled that the chairty was to have no contact with a family who were harmed by their ideology. ...l

Just seen this group have been granted half a million pounds by the UK National Lottery, and plan to use the money to create a network of 45 groups nationwide.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/my-articles/child-sex-change-charity-handed-500-000-by-national-lottery-dvbt7t2kb
(paywalled article)
from reddit

Times article wrote:

In the absence of NHS treatment, Mermaids has referred parents to a private GP, Helen Webberley, who prescribed cross-sex hormones to children as young as 12. Mermaids recommended Webberley even after she was convicted of operating an illegal gender clinic.

I'm a GP who used to practice in the NHS. Dr Webberley is notorious - she has recently been convicted of running an illegal transgender service. She is a GP with absolutely no relevant gender training who has been charging people privately for her "services". GPs have regularly got letters from her puporting to be a "specialist" in this area demanding they prescribe all sorts of hormonal treatments which the GPs would ultimately be taking the responsibility for.

She has an interim suspension from the GMC and has passed on the care of those patients to her husband - who is a gastroenterologist.

This organisation is doing great harm and shouldn't be getting any Lottery funding whatsoever.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/my-articles/child-sex-change-charity-handed-500-000-by-national-lottery-dvbt7t2kb

ceadaoin.

Martina Navratilova is the latest woman to be labelled transphobic, bullied and forced to back down after making the following statement on Twitter.

“Clearly that can’t be right. You can’t just proclaim yourself a female and be able to compete against women. There must be some standards, and having a penis and competing as a woman would not fit that standard…”

And who else should put themselves at the forefront of that bullying than cyclist Rachel McKinnon, a male who competes against females, lecturing Martina Navratilova about women's sports.

Yep, clearly a female sporting legend and pioneer such as her is a bigot needs to be "re educated". Of course males have no advantage over females in sports. Silly woman.

She won Wimbledon nine times and is widely regarded as one of the greatest tennis players of all time, so most people would agree that Martina Navratilova has earned the right to discuss fairness in women’s sport.

Not everyone. Rachel McKinnon, a transgender cyclist from Canada, has been accused of bullying Navratilova on social media, demanding she retract and apologise for “transphobic” comments about transgender athletes competing in women’s sport.

Transgender campaigners have insisted that biological males should be allowed to compete against women if they identify as female. Critics say it gives male-to-female transgender athletes an unfair physical advantage and, in some contact sports, could threaten their safety.

Expressing her concern, Navratilova tweeted: “Clearly that can’t be right. You can’t just proclaim yourself a female and be able to compete against women. There must be some standards, and having a penis and competing as a woman would not fit that standard.”

The comment prompted a series of hostile responses from Dr McKinnon, an assistant professor in the department of philosophy at College of Charleston, South Carolina, who was born male but identifies as female. Navratilova apologised for causing any offence and said she would “keep quiet”, adding: “All I want is fairness

However, Dr McKinnon was unsatisfied by Navratilova’s reply, telling her: “All you had to do: ‘I’m sorry. I made a mistake. I will work to do better’. People: genitals are IRRELEVANT to sports performance.” She added: “You . . . realize I’m a world champion trans athlete who happens to publish and speak worldwide on trans rights . . . right?”

She added: “You don’t hit a tennis ball with your penis or vagina. If you do, you’re doing it wrong.” Navratilova replied: “Rachel — you might be an expert on all things trans, but you are one nasty human being. You didn’t engage, you bullied. I regret nothing

Zorya

Thanks ceadaoin, saw that yesterday Julian Vigo collected the tweets between Martina and McKinnon into a thread -

https://twitter.com/lubelluledotcom/status/1076170560579780608


Earlier this December was Hannah Mouncey's debut with the Australia women's national handball team at the 2018 Asian Women's Handball Championship.

The pictures were really something to behold. How anyone can stand over this and applaud is beyond me. Are they going to wait until someone on an opposite team is seriously damaged by a transwoman?

(Sorry if the images turn out ginormous, I don't know how to make them smaller).








https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dub6j7BVYAAE_x6.jpg



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dtyzh4JVAAAZKzz.jpg

FTA69

Hannah Mounsey has already broken a woman’s leg apparently so she’s ahead of you there Zorya.

As for McKinnon; imagine lecturing Navratilova on sporting achievement? God above. She’s up there with Maradona and the like; and getting condescended to by someone who wins races cos she was a man for years.

Zorya

FTA69 wrote: »

Hannah Mounsey has already broken a woman’s leg apparently so she’s ahead of you there Zorya.

As for McKinnon; imagine lecturing Navratilova on sporting achievement? God above. She’s up there with Maradona and the like; and getting condescended to by someone who wins races cos she was a man for years.

Oh I didn't know that about Mouncey at all. Several of those pics I chose are also on their own Twitter account, so they are quite proud of what they are doing.

McKinnon is a nasty piece of work.

Tasmania to be first Aussie state to remove gender on birth certificate

THERE’S a big change coming to baby birth certificates in Tasmania. And it’s been hailed as a huge win for the transgender community.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/tasmania-to-be-first-aussie-state-to-remove-gender-on-birth-certificate/news-story/ec605df2b3d1384a7cff33e9c0db7f87

Other countries, including New Zealand, India, Germany and Bangladesh, as well as recently New York City, also permit gender-neutral and/or non-binary designations on birth certificates.

The proposal being debated in Tasmania goes a step further. While providing a gender-neutral option on birth certificates may improve the situation for non-binary and intersex Australians, there is growing interest in removing sex designations from birth certificates altogether.

https://theconversation.com/explainer-why-removing-sex-from-birth-certificates-matters-to-gender-diverse-people-105571


If this kind of thing became widespread could you even have male female differentiated sports?

Guy:Incognito

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If this kind of thing became widespread could you even have male female differentiated sports?

If it goes that way all it'll mean is there will be men in sport and no women so it'll become differentiated naturally, but with women just not competing .

DS86DS

This nonsense of Trans men insisting that we identify them as women has to stop. If they want to partake in sports, then they can partake in sports with other men. And they most certainly should not be allowed use the women's bathroom or join women only clubs.

I would like to know where the feminists are on this one. You have men who are claiming to be women, but have an unfair advantage in female sports. Not to mention putting the security of women at risk by insisting on their rights to use female bathrooms or female only clubs.

This is just the latest in a long line of the loony left and social engineering, regardless of the scientific fact.

Biologically, you are either a man or a woman. And you were born that way. Been a gender is not like choosing which book club to join. It's a scientific fact of biology, you are either male or female. End of discussion.

This politically correct nonsense has gone too far this time.

pjohnson

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

If it goes that way all it'll mean is there will be men in sport and no women so it'll become differentiated naturally, but with women just not competing .

Is it any wonder they are so mad to be let in. Guaranteed easy medals. Just be the elite men and the poorer men hoovering up medals. Until enough men enter that the poorer men are again pushed out of medals. McKinnon and Mouncey obviously had no hope if they competed against men.

Jimbob1977

The only labels that matter are XX and XY