Biological males in women's sport

alan partridge aha

Stop men taking part in women's sport otherwise it's fu5ked.

ceadaoin.

Martina Navratilova speaks out after her bullying by male cyclist McKinnon. She isn't backing down. This is what a true female sportswoman and role model looks like. Even though she states that she believes those who have surgically transitioned should be able to compete against women (which seems to contradict what she says about male puberty giving an advantage tbh), she's still going to get a ton of abuse no doubt. McKinnon has already said she's gone "full transphobe"

Shortly before Christmas I inadvertently stumbled into the mother and father of a spat about gender and fair play in sport. It began with an instinctive reaction and a tweet that I wrote on a serious forum dealing with the subject. “You can’t just proclaim yourself a female and be able to compete against women,” I tweeted. “There must be some standards, and having a penis and competing as a woman would not fit that standard.”

Perhaps I could have phrased it more delicately and less dogmatically, but I was not prepared for the onslaught that followed, chiefly from a Canadian academic and transgender cyclist named Rachel McKinnon.

McKinnon won the Masters Track cycling world championship in Los Angeles last October in the 35-44 age category. It was a victory that gave rise to controversy — not least because the woman who came third, Jennifer Wagner-Assali, said it was “not fair”.


McKinnon has vigorously defended her right to compete, pointing out that, when tested, her levels of testosterone, the male hormone, were well within the limits set by world cycling’s governing body. Nevertheless, at 6ft tall and weighing more than 14 stone, she appeared to have a substantial advantage in muscle mass over her rivals.

My tweet brought an angry response from McKinnon, whom I had not named (I had no idea who she was at the time). She accused me of being “transphobic” and demanded I delete my tweet and apologise. Since I have spent much of my life fighting injustice, on my own behalf and for others, I was pretty put out, especially when the bullying tweets from McKinnon continued, like incoming fire.


Ever the peacemaker, I promised to keep quiet on the subject until I had properly researched it.

Well, I’ve now done that and, if anything, my views have strengthened. To put the argument at its most basic: a man can decide to be female, take hormones if required by whatever sporting organisation is concerned, win everything in sight and perhaps earn a small fortune, and then reverse his decision and go back to making babies if he so desires. It’s insane and it’s cheating. I am happy to address a transgender woman in whatever form she prefers, but I would not be happy to compete against her. It would not be fair.

Simply reducing hormone levels — the prescription most sports have adopted — does not solve the problem. A man builds up muscle and bone density, as well as a greater number of oxygen-carrying red blood cells, from childhood. Training increases the discrepancy. Indeed, if a male were to change gender in such a way as to eliminate any accumulated advantage, he would have to begin hormone treatment before puberty. For me, that is unthinkable

Hundreds of athletes who have changed gender by declaration and limited hormone treatment have already achieved honours as women that were beyond their capabilities as men, especially in sports in which power rather than skill is paramount. McKinnon is just one example. That may uphold the International Olympic Committee’s charter, which holds that “the practice of sport is a human right”, but it is surely unfair on women who have to compete against people who, biologically, are still men.

I know the argument is made that sport is always unfair and that the notion of a level playing field is a myth. Someone who is 5ft tall has next to no chance on a basketball court. But I still believe that fairness should always be valued and strived for, and that unfairness introduced through human action and chemical means should be condemned and outlawed.

Let me make a critical distinction between transgender and transsexual athletes. Transsexuals have decided to change their gender and have had the deed done, surgically. They have made the full commitment. They are few in number and rarely enjoy a competitive advantage.

Back in the 1970s, when I was competing, Renée Richards appeared on the women’s tour. Originally a man named Richard Raskind — a strong but not outstanding player who competed at the US Open — Raskind changed his sex through surgery, changed his name (Renée means “reborn” in French) and began to compete as a woman.

I had no objection (she later became my coach and a friend), but some players refused to compete against her and the United States Tennis Association prevented her from competing at the US Open. She took the organisation to court for discrimination and won. She competed once more at the US Open, with very similar results to those she achieved two decades earlier as a man.

Judgments are difficult and dilemmas abound (Richards, now an ophthalmologist, these days has misgivings about her actions herself), but the ruling principle most be fairness.

That brings me to the most controversial current case, involving Caster Semenya, the Olympic 800m champion. She was designated female at birth and has been raised as female throughout her life. Suspicions were aroused because she was such a dominant runner and her body shape looked male.

It turned out that Semenya has a condition called hyperandrogenism, which produces naturally occurring, but elevated, levels of testosterone. She has never taken medication or sought an advantage. She has just trained and run.

Unfortunately, the International Association of Athletics Federations decided to bring in a rule requiring female athletes with naturally high testosterone levels to take hormone therapy for six months and then to maintain lower testosterone levels.

The new rule, which was due to come into force last November until it was legally challenged by Semenya and Athletics South Africa, was to apply to track events from 400m to a mile. Leaving out sprints and longer distances seems to me to be a clear case of discrimination by targeting Semenya. And can it be right to order athletes to take medication? What if the long-term effects proved harmful?

Semenya’s case will come up tomorrow at the Court of Arbitration for Sport. It is expected to last a week and the outcome is expected on March 29. I hope she wins.

Semenya, Richards and many others have been subject to vilification, ostracism and the awful human inclination to identify anyone who is different and start a witch hunt. I had problems of that kind myself when I came out as gay in 1981, and it hurt, terribly.

McKinnon, who says she received more than 100,000 hate messages on Twitter after winning the world championship, has presented herself and other transgender athletes as victims of prejudice. Certainly, there can be no excuse for such ignorance and nastiness.

But I also deplore what seems to be a growing tendency among transgender activists to denounce anyone who argues against them and to label them all as “transphobes”. That’s just another form of tyranny. I’m relatively tough and was able to stand up for myself in my Twitter exchange with McKinnon, but I worry that others may be cowed into silence or submission.

Here’s how I concluded my Twitter spat: “Rachel, you may be an expert on all things trans, but you are one nasty human being. Attack, attack, attack. I will not take it from you. You did not engage; you bullied. Not blocking you [though I later did, because who wants all that negativity], but enough already. All I want is fairness

seligehgit

David Walsh expresses a diametrically opposite opinion to Martina Navratilova re Caster Semenya's CAS appeal this week.Whilst sympathetic to her case he puts forward an eloquent argument against her winning the appeal.

CAS reinstated the IAAF rule that females with male levels of testosterone could not compete in women's races.

Excellent read.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/walsh-caster-semenya-2p377rbvd

GreeBo

The problem i have with Walsh's argument is fairness..i don't know how you can label something natural as unfair, especially if the outcome is to prevent semanya from competing naturally... how is that fair?

seligehgit

GreeBo wrote: »

The problem i have with Walsh's argument is fairness..i don't know how you can label something natural as unfair, especially if the outcome is to prevent semanya from competing naturally... how is that fair?

Not saying I agree with him.Caster Semenya hit the biological jackpot.:)

The Rape of Lucretia

The accusation of Navratilova being transphobic is certainly nonsense, whatever ones views on transitioners competing in their non-birth sex sport.

It perfectly reasonable to both be fair to trans people, and hold the view that they then shouldnt compete in the new-sex division.

Sex partitioning in sport exists to make it worthwhile for women. A bit like handicapped golf. Women overall, cannot compete with men. So having a special section for them in sensible. Letting men who have decided they want to be women, compete as women, makes a mockery of that division. The bottom line is that they are still men - less men than they were, and adopting some female characteristics, but fundamentally still men. The reverse direction is less problematic from a sporting perspective, but still a nonsense.

Candamir

seligehgit wrote: »

David Walsh expresses a diametrically opposite opinion to Martina Navratilova re Caster Semenya's CAS appeal this week.Whilst sympathetic to her case he puts forward an eloquent argument against her winning the appeal.

CAS reinstated the IAAF rule that females with male levels of testosterone could not compete in women's races.

Excellent read.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/walsh-caster-semenya-2p377rbvd

Article is behind a paywall. Any chance of a copy and paste?

seligehgit

Candamir wrote: »

Article is behind a paywall. Any chance of a copy and paste?

Sorry I read the paper version.

No sub for the on line publication.

keano_afc

That McKinnon really is a nasty piece of work.

jmayo

seligehgit wrote: »

David Walsh expresses a diametrically opposite opinion to Martina Navratilova re Caster Semenya's CAS appeal this week.Whilst sympathetic to her case he puts forward an eloquent argument against her winning the appeal.

CAS reinstated the IAAF rule that females with male levels of testosterone could not compete in women's races.

Excellent read.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/walsh-caster-semenya-2p377rbvd

I stopped respecting Walsh when he became a mouthpiece for Team Sky.

Letting blokes, and lets face that is as good as what they are, compete against women is a joke.

Yes they have taken female hormones, but they have all gone through male puberty and have just looking at them the physique of a man.

Just look at these pictures and spot the "new woman".

Hector Savage

keano_afc wrote: »

That McKinnon really is a nasty piece of work.

He is indeed.

Calhoun

keano_afc wrote: »

That McKinnon really is a nasty piece of work.

Also facinated with kids , had a YouTube up saying kids should leave for their sparkle families if they weren't getting support from home.

Some sinister **** their and I have do doubt we will see cases of abuse in a few years.

Candamir

GreeBo wrote: »

The problem i have with Walsh's argument is fairness..i don't know how you can label something natural as unfair, especially if the outcome is to prevent semanya from competing naturally... how is that fair?

I haven’t been able to read Walsh’s article, so I don’t know what his argument is, but on the subject of ‘natural’ .....
I’m not specifically talking about Semanya, because I don’t know for sure what her condition is, but it seems that there are a number of intersex athletes competing at elite level in female categories-far exceeding their representation in the general population - and that would suggest there is a competitive advantage, even if you cant quantify where exactly that comes from, whether it be testosterone or elsewhere.
Many of these athletes have a Y chromosome, X(X)Y or XY, many have testes and produce testosterone, and many are sensitive to testosterone and develop male characteristics as a result. Reading between the lines, I’m guessing that Semenya falls into this area.
Often these kids have ambiguous genitalia at birth, and because they look more like little girls than boys, they are raised as girls. In cases where they are diagnosed early, a decision is made by parents to choose to raise them either male or female.
Many of these kids have many of the advantages that males achieve by going through puberty.
While all this may be natural, it doesn’t take away from the fact that they have a male phenotype (and genotype in some cases) and they are female only by virtue of a sociological decision taken at birth.
I’m not sure I agree with the methods the IAAF propose - it seems senseless to omit 100m and 200m from the rules (and I think that decision may be so as to exclude Dutee Chand from the proposed regulations) But I do think that it is inherently unfair to have XX females competing against athletes who have a Y chromosome, testes, testosterone, and have developed male body types as a result.

suicide_circus

too bad ladies, this is equality

Zorya

McKinnon refused to debate with Martina Navratilova on BBC 5 yesterday and they caved to McKinnon's demands, excluding Martina.

McKinnon had argued thusly...



''I am a biological woman.'' Now, remember Rachel McKinnon is a Doctor of Philosophy teaching philosophy as Assistant Professor at the College of Charleston, South Carolina.

On their website McKinnon says

I am one of the only transgender world champions in any sport. I achieved this in my 2018 UCI Masters Track Cycling gold medal in the Women 35-44 Sprint event in Los Angeles.

In the summer of 2018, I reached a UCI Elite world ranking of 90th in the sprint event. My goal is to compete for Canada in the 2020 and 2024 Olympics. This might make me the first out transgender Olympian.

seligehgit

jmayo wrote: »

I stopped respecting Walsh when he became a mouthpiece for Team Sky.

Letting blokes, and lets face that is as good as what they are, compete against women is a joke.

Yes they have taken female hormones, but they have all gone through male puberty and have just looking at them the physique of a man.

Just look at these pictures and spot the "new woman".

Totally agree,he undid so much of the good work he'd done around Lance Armstrong.

Candamir

Zorya wrote: »

McKinnon refused to debate with Martina Navratilova on BBC 5 yesterday and they caved to McKinnon's demands, excluding Martina.

McKinnon had argued thusly...

Did McKinnon just liken Navratilova to the KKK???

Jesus wept.

seligehgit

Candamir wrote: »

I haven’t been able to read Walsh’s article, so I don’t know what his argument is, but on the subject of ‘natural’ .....
I’m not specifically talking about Semanya, because I don’t know for sure what her condition is, but it seems that there are a number of intersex athletes competing at elite level in female categories-far exceeding their representation in the general population - and that would suggest there is a competitive advantage, even if you cant quantify where exactly that comes from, whether it be testosterone or elsewhere.
Many of these athletes have a Y chromosome, X(X)Y or XY, many have testes and produce testosterone, and many are sensitive to testosterone and develop male characteristics as a result. Reading between the lines, I’m guessing that Semenya falls into this area.
Often these kids have ambiguous genitalia at birth, and because they look more like little girls than boys, they are raised as girls. In cases where they are diagnosed early, a decision is made by parents to choose to raise them either male or female.
Many of these kids have many of the advantages that males achieve by going through puberty.
While all this may be natural, it doesn’t take away from the fact that they have a male phenotype (and genotype in some cases) and they are female only by virtue of a sociological decision taken at birth.
I’m not sure I agree with the methods the IAAF propose - it seems senseless to omit 100m and 200m from the rules (and I think that decision may be so as to exclude Dutee Chand from the proposed regulations) But I do think that it is inherently unfair to have XX females competing against athletes who have a Y chromosome, testes, testosterone, and have developed male body types as a result.

Caster Semenya has a condition called hyperandrogenism which produces naturally occurring,but elevated,levels of testosterone.

She has a naturally occurring biological advantage.No fault can be attached to her for same.

RobiePAX

There's a reason why we separate women and men from sports. Not because people are sexist but because nature wasn't fair and gave more physical strength to men. It's a fact you can't change with political correctness.

For a biological man to identify as a woman is not good enough to participate in women group category. This is equally as fair as 16 year old playing sports against 10 year olds and expect it's fair.

Zorya

I can't recall if anyone has mentioned the delicate flower known as JayCee Cooper, on behalf of whom Democrat Ilhan Omar has lodged a complaint with the Attorney General of Minnesota, to investigate USA Powerlifting over a decision to bar transgender women from competition.

How people do not laugh openly in the faces of such pious bull****ters is beyond me. People can transition their gender all day long, but to hell with their claiming there is no advantage in sports.



“I urge you to reconsider this discriminatory, unscientific policy and follow the example of the International Olympic Committee,” Omar wrote. “The myth that trans women have a ‘direct competitive advantage’ is not supported by medical science, and it continues to stoke fear and violence against one of the most at-risk communities in the world.”

klaaaz

seligehgit wrote: »

Totally agree,he undid so much of the good work he'd done around Lance Armstrong.

What is the GAA rules on transgender athletes participating in GAA sports, particularly those participating in ladies football and camogie?

Candamir

seligehgit wrote: »

Caster Semenya has a condition called hyperandrogenism which produces naturally occurring,but elevated,levels of testosterone.

She has a naturally occurring biological advantage.No fault can be attached to her for same.

It seems pretty obvious that she has some form of hyperandrogenism, I’d be interested to know exactly what form. For instance, Dutee Chand also has hyperandrogenism. She also has an XY genotype, so is genetically male, but she also has complete androgen insensitivity, so her body doesn’t respond to testosterone, and so she has developed a more female body type. Semenya on the other hand clearly responds to testosterone. Both are natural, and neither athlete is at fault in any way, but fairness is the issue here.

jmayo

I think Lance Armstrong has more of a right to participate in female cycling events than yer wan.

After all it appears he has one ball less than the good Dr.

BTW the good doctor is always trying to use her academic profile to belittle detractors and just shows how fooked up academia has become nowadays.

jmayo

yamaha50 wrote: »

Jaysus Hannah Mouncey is an absolute unit.
The ladies are really going to have to up their game

She also plays AFL but that has caused a bit of shyte storm.

FTA69

Honest to God this American campus woke lark has empowered every nasty bully and narcissist to go around demanding a pound of flesh off everyone who disagrees with them.

They’re a f*cking scourge in left politics and ironically they’re not even left wing; most of them are liberal types obsessed with the individual over any concept of the collective and have no class analysis whatsoever.

Candamir

jmayo wrote: »

I think Lance Armstrong has more of a right to participate in female cycling events than yer wan.

After all it appears he has one ball less than the good Dr.

BTW the good doctor is always trying to use her academic profile to belittle detractors and just shows how fooked up academia has become nowadays.

I know I probably shouldn’t, but I had to laugh at that!:D:D

Also agree very much with your point of her academic profile. She is a bully imo.

keano_afc

Zorya wrote: »

McKinnon refused to debate with Martina Navratilova on BBC 5 yesterday and they caved to McKinnon's demands, excluding Martina.

McKinnon had argued thusly...



''I am a biological woman.'' Now, remember Rachel McKinnon is a Doctor of Philosophy teaching philosophy as Assistant Professor at the College of Charleston, South Carolina.

On their website McKinnon says

I think the other participant in the debate was Dr Nicola Williams, from the group Fair Play for Women. McKinnon found this out and refused to go on unless FPfW were disinvited. The topic of discussion was Martina's comments, I dont think she was actually a guest.

The BBC caved in and the "debate" consisted of McKinnon and trans racing driver Charlie Martin, answering questions unopposed, which is against BBC editorial guidelines. An absolute farce, and one which McKinnon bragged about on his twitter after the interview.

keano_afc

Zorya wrote: »

I can't recall if anyone has mentioned the delicate flower known as JayCee Cooper, on behalf of whom Democrat Ilhan Omar has lodged a complaint with the Attorney General of Minnesota, to investigate USA Powerlifting over a decision to bar transgender women from competition.

How people do not laugh openly in the faces of such pious bull****ters is beyond me. People can transition their gender all day long, but to hell with their claiming there is no advantage in sports.



“I urge you to reconsider this discriminatory, unscientific policy and follow the example of the International Olympic Committee,” Omar wrote. “The myth that trans women have a ‘direct competitive advantage’ is not supported by medical science, and it continues to stoke fear and violence against one of the most at-risk communities in the world.”

I'd be interested in the reception trans people would get in Omar's mosque.

Ultros

Bullies is a good word.

Imagine a wholly religion person forcing you to mention God every-time you spoke to them, what would give them that right?

The idea that pronouns are a form of respect is an utter bullying tactic. First off respect is earned not given to anyone who wants it, and second ten's of billions of people around the world are referred to either he or she so I fail to see how two words describing the entire human population have anything to do with an individuals feelings.

McKinnon is not a good person and I think that should be obvious to anyone who's glanced at that persons twitter feed.

Zorya

keano_afc wrote: »

I think the other participant in the debate was Dr Nicola Williams, from the group Fair Play for Women. McKinnon found this out and refused to go on unless FPfW were disinvited. The topic of discussion was Martina's comments, I dont think she was actually a guest.

The BBC caved in and the "debate" consisted of McKinnon and trans racing driver Charlie Martin, answering questions unopposed, which is against BBC editorial guidelines. An absolute farce, and one which McKinnon bragged about on his twitter after the interview.

Oh, thank you. Sorry, I got my facts wrong.