Biological males in women's sport

suicide_circus

keano_afc wrote: »

I think the other participant in the debate was Dr Nicola Williams, from the group Fair Play for Women. McKinnon found this out and refused to go on unless FPfW were disinvited. The topic of discussion was Martina's comments, I dont think she was actually a guest.

The BBC caved in and the "debate" consisted of McKinnon and trans racing driver Charlie Martin, answering questions unopposed, which is against BBC editorial guidelines. An absolute farce, and one which McKinnon bragged about on his twitter after the interview.

remember when those who refused to debate in an open forum, mano-a-mano if you will, and stand by their convictions, lost the debate by default? when did that stop?

jmayo

FTA69 wrote: »

Honest to God this American campus woke lark has empowered every nasty bully and narcissist to go around demanding a pound of flesh off everyone who disagrees with them.

They’re a f*cking scourge in left politics and ironically they’re not even left wing; most of them are liberal types obsessed with the individual over any concept of the collective and have no class analysis whatsoever.

Careful now FTA69, you are coming across all right wing like some of us

yamaha50 wrote: »

There are some images of her playing football
Puts in some massive tackles

Sorry just can't resist

What about her tackle ?

BTW no matter how many fooking times that weapon McKinnon states they are "a biological woman" doesn't make it so.

And no matter how McKinnon wants to describe herself, I can confidently agree that one crude word often used to describe a part of the female anatomy can very aptly be used to describe the doctor.

keano_afc

suicide_circus wrote: »

remember when those who refused to debate in an open forum, mano-a-mano if you will, and stand by their convictions, lost the debate by default? when did that stop?

When men started referring to themselves as biological women.

FTA69

jmayo wrote: »

Careful now FTA69, you are coming across all right wing like some of us

.

I’m actually a communist, that’s the mad thing. I support collective rights and the concept of economic power being in the hands of workers. What I don’t support is championing every individualist fad and rejecting materialist analyses of situations in favour of how someone feels on a given day.

This sort of sh*t is not socialism, it’s not Marxism and it’s got nothing to do with addressing where economic and political power lies in our society. It’s liberalism turned on its head and it makes genuine organising against the status quo impossible.

Ultros

Ultros wrote: »

Bullies is a good word.

Imagine a wholly religion person forcing you to mention God every-time you spoke to them, what would give them that right?

The idea that pronouns are a form of respect is an utter bullying tactic. First off respect is earned not given to anyone who wants it, and second ten's of billions of people around the world are referred to either he or she so I fail to see how two words describing the entire human population have anything to do with an individuals feelings.

McKinnon is not a good person and I think that should be obvious to anyone who's glanced at that persons twitter feed.

There are less than 10 billion people on the planet.

suicide_circus

FTA69 wrote: »

individualist

this is the keyword.

People start looking internally when faith in all the traditional institutions starts collapsing.

ceadaoin.

keano_afc wrote: »

I'd be interested in the reception trans people would get in Omar's mosque.

Better to be trans than gay to many muslims. In Iran, transition is "offered" as a solution to homosexuality. This is also the case for many religious Christians, particularly in America. They're ok with having a trans son on daughter but not a gay one. It's just another form of conversion therapy in some cases

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29832690


Also, have a look at the Iranian women's soccer team. It's mostly males, so it's good for keeping women out of where they don't belong too.

Just saw as well that McKinnon thinks Martina should be fired from the BBC for her comments . Ffs, this person is a nasty bully who wants to punish Martina for daring to be a woman who speaks out , and a better sportsperson than they'll ever be.

mzungu

FTA69 wrote: »

I’m actually a communist, that’s the mad thing. I support collective rights and the concept of economic power being in the hands of workers. What I don’t support is championing every individualist fad and rejecting materialist analyses of situations in favour of how someone feels on a given day.

This sort of sh*t is not socialism, it’s not Marxism and it’s got nothing to do with addressing where economic and political power lies in our society. It’s liberalism turned on its head and it makes genuine organising against the status quo impossible.

This is off topic to the main gist of the tread. But a lot of these things are often cited as being examples of "cultural marxism" (a mythical term that means nothing IMO) and proof of some kind of worldwide "left wing takeover" by right-wing bloggers and the like. The truth is, it doesn't serve any kind of Marxist agenda...whatsoever. Why do people think that corporations are falling over themselves to be a part of it? Because corporations love Marxism?

normanoffside

FTA69 wrote: »

Honest to God this American campus woke lark has empowered every nasty bully and narcissist to go around demanding a pound of flesh off everyone who disagrees with them.

They’re a f*cking scourge in left politics and ironically they’re not even left wing; most of them are liberal types obsessed with the individual over any concept of the collective and have no class analysis whatsoever.

100%
Slightly off topic but related, this thinking has infiltrated our own 'left' politics as evidenced by that clown Paul Murphy objecting to the phrase 'pregnant women' in abortion legislation. Apparently it should be 'pregnant people' :rolleyes:.

https://twitter.com/rtepolitics/status/1052275728644009984

Questioning sacred Cows

I think this whole transgender shenanigans is just going too far - I’ve no problem with people who are adults and want to undergo a sex change - it’s their life, their bodies, their choice - but encouraging young children to “transition” is wrong on every level and on one web forum I read that a “T girl admirer” liked performing fellatio on a T-“girl’s” dick. WTF??:(:confused:

All this “cisgender” and “non-binary” “TERF” and “genderqueer” rubbish. When and where will this nonsense end?

What is this total and utter nonsense.

Only a woman can be pregnant.

Cuddlesworth

seligehgit wrote: »

Caster Semenya has a condition called hyperandrogenism which produces naturally occurring,but elevated,levels of testosterone.

She has a naturally occurring biological advantage.No fault can be attached to her for same.

Caster won in competition, by a huge margin. People saw the obvious male features and questions were raised about the win. Caster was asked to take a gender test, to see if there were undescended testicles. The results of that test, if it was even, were never released.

To me, her specific case is super interesting because its such a grey area.

McKinnon is just the same mentality of any sports cheater. "If I can do it, why shouldn't I?"

Candamir

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Caster won in competition, by a huge margin. People saw the obvious male features and questions were raised about the win. Caster was asked to take a gender test, to see if there were undescended testicles. The results of that test, if it was even, were never released.

To me, her specific case is super interesting because its such a grey area.

McKinnon is just the same mentality of any sports cheater. "If I can do it, why shouldn't I?"

Interestingly enough, having a Y chromosome, or testes, is not a current barrier to competing in the female division.


I think this is the way things will go in the future - it seems to me the fairist way for the vast majority:

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2018/apr/26/iaaf-doctor-calls-for-intersex-category-athletics-caster-semenya

“In elite female athletics the number of intersex athletes is 140 times more than what you might find in the normal female population.”

Dante7

This should be a huge talking point, but it's not because it is awkward for the progressives. Martina Navratilova tried to address it and the ensuing headlines were about her being transphobic. The regressive woke dudes are wrong on this one and they will quietly remove the pronouns from their profiles when the lawsuits start landing.

GreeBo

Candamir wrote: »

“In elite female athletics the number of intersex athletes is 140 times more than what you might find in the normal female population.”

But isn't that akin to saying "in elite basketball the number of people over 7ft tall is 140 times more than in what you might find in the normal population"?

I'm left waiting for the point of that argument other than "and thus its an advantage and clearly not fair"...

benjamin d

GreeBo wrote: »

But isn't that akin to saying "in elite basketball the number of people over 7ft tall is 140 times more than in what you might find in the normal population"?

I'm left waiting for the point of that argument other than "and thus its an advantage and clearly not fair"...

Genuine intersex and hyperandrogenism cases are certainly tricky from an ethical point of view and outside the scope of this thread IMO, but if anything those cases should actually be seen as an almost indisputable argument against MTF transsexuals in women's sport.
If, by a quirk of genetics, a woman has a huge, proven advantage bestowed by a slight-to-miniscule amount of male hormones caused by a medical disorder, how can anyone argue that a biological male who's had the full plethora of male genetic advantages should be allowed to compete against women?

FWIW my view is that a biological woman with an intersex or androgen disorder should probably be allowed to compete, although I do think it's a little unfair.

Dyr

Take the set of values that are in vogue and follow them to their logical conclusion: do away with gender segregation in sport.


In the immortal words of John Lydon: "This is what you want - This is what you get"

Candamir

GreeBo wrote: »

But isn't that akin to saying "in elite basketball the number of people over 7ft tall is 140 times more than in what you might find in the normal population"?

I'm left waiting for the point of that argument other than "and thus its an advantage and clearly not fair"...

Not quite. In most (if not all) cases of intersex athletes, there’s a Y chromosome at play. Some athletes raised female are simply XY - making them biologically male, and in another circumstance (eg if their intersex state has been discovered at birth or during early childhood) they would have been raised as men. So it’s not simply a female who happens to be lucky in their genetic make up. Often it’s athletes with male chromosomes, male hormones, who have gone through a male puberty, and have many of the advantages that males have, competing in women’s categories. Now that is unfair IMO.

I appreciate that it’s also unfair to an individual who is raised female and perhaps had no knowledge of their condition, to be suddenly told they can’t compete, or have to undergo hormonal therapy to be allowed compete, but if a choice needs to be made, I would choose to be fair to the many, and like I said, perhaps an intersex category might be the answer.

And I agree with the poster above. Trans athletes should not be competing against biological women. There are far too many advantages bestowed by virtue of their previous malehood, and often their remaining male hormones.

DEFTLEFTHAND

normanoffside wrote: »

100%
Slightly off topic but related, this thinking has infiltrated our own 'left' politics as evidenced by that clown Paul Murphy objecting to the phrase 'pregnant women' in abortion legislation. Apparently it should be 'pregnant people' :rolleyes:.

https://twitter.com/rtepolitics/status/1052275728644009984

It's like Folie a deux or infectious insanity.

Once the well is poisoned they all become infected.

ceadaoin.

Martina has now been removed from the advisory board of athlete ally, an organisation for LGBT athletes.they actually say this in their statement. Ffs

There is no evidence at all that the average trans woman is any bigger, stronger, or faster than the average cisgender woman

I guess that means that there is no evidence that males outperform females then, and its just that we don't try hard enough. Just a coincidence that the trans athletes that we are seeing beating women, were nowhere near as successful against men.


And

As an organization dedicated to addressing root causes of homophobia and transphobia in and through sport, we will only affiliate with those committed to the same goal, and not those who further misinformation or discrimination in any way.

Note that another advisory member is Rachel McKinnon, who bullies and shames lesbians who aren't sexually interested in "female" penises. That is the very definition of homophobia. You couldnt make it up.

Franz Von Peppercorn

GreeBo wrote: »

But isn't that akin to saying "in elite basketball the number of people over 7ft tall is 140 times more than in what you might find in the normal population"?

I'm left waiting for the point of that argument other than "and thus its an advantage and clearly not fair"...

You mean caster or transwomen? Different scenarios.

Dante7

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Martina has now been removed from the advisory board of athlete ally, an organisation for LGBT athletes.they actually say this in their statement. Ffs



I guess that means that there is no evidence that males outperform females then, and its just that we don't try hard enough. Just a coincidence that the trans athletes that we are seeing beating women, were nowhere near as successful against men.


And



Note that another advisory member is Rachel McKinnon, who bullies and shames lesbians who aren't sexually interested in "female" penises. That is the very definition of homophobia. You couldnt make it up.

It has begun, but they are ultimately pissing against the wind. This will all end very quickly once the lawsuits start coming in.

GreeBo

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You mean caster or transwomen? Different scenarios.

I'm talking about Caster, any "manly" advantage she has is as natural as someone else being above average height.

Dr Rachel Mc Crazy Balls is an unnatural "female" who, based on her interactions with Martina is a complete headcase and a bully.

AllForIt

Transgender activism is of such a state that it is like a comical parody of Homosexuality activism of years go in the same way Galaxy Quest is a comical parody of Star Trek.

DrumSteve

I feel real bad for Martina here; she's a legend and should be at least heard out as she has a valid point. How can women compete against transwomen, when those transwomen have an inherent biological advantage.

I think the people accusing Martina of transphobia are being wilfully blind to this to appear the most woke, but in reality, you are just pushing women away from sport.

ceadaoin.

McKinnon only started cycling in her late 20s. In the space of a few years she has risen to the top and has even won a world championship. Beating women who have trained their whole lives.

Same with Laurel Hubbard, and Tiffany abreau. Setting world records within a few years or even months of competing. Has anyone ever heard of this happening when people are competing against their own sex?

Martina has spent years in women's sports. She knows what she is talking about. It's pure misogyny and gaslighting to simply tell her to shut up , that she is wrong. Pretty much everyone is on her side here, with more people coming out in support publicly.

jmayo

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Martina has now been removed from the advisory board of athlete ally, an organisation for LGBT athletes.they actually say this in their statement. Ffs



I guess that means that there is no evidence that males outperform females then, and its just that we don't try hard enough. Just a coincidence that the trans athletes that we are seeing beating women, were nowhere near as successful against men.


Note that another advisory member is Rachel McKinnon, who bullies and shames lesbians who aren't sexually interested in "female" penises. That is the very definition of homophobia. You couldnt make it up.

That is one truly fooked up organisation that lambasts one of the women that pioneered bisexual/lesbian acceptance in high level sport along with another tennis player Billy Jean King.

Who the fook are the plonkers, who put their careers on the line, that are on the board that made this decision.

That Canadian ballsack isn't fit to grace the same stage as one of the greatest females athletes of all time.

The board of directors includes Hudson Taylor, Mike Balaban, Sean Avery, Brian Ellner, Alison Grover, Laura Clise, Lia Parifax, Sam Marchiano, Frederick Raffetto, Frank Selvaggi, Robert Smith, Joe Solmonese, Mark Stephanz, Sandye Taylor, Andrew Ward, Deborah Block and Christine Quinn.[23]

This is their sport advisory board according to wiki.

Athlete Ally also includes an advisory board of athletes, media, academics and other sports professionals that help drive the organization's programmatic work. The advisory board includes:[22]

1. Brendon Ayanbadejo, chairman of Athlete Ally Advisory Board, NFL player
2. Kathleen Behrens, executive vice president, Social Responsibility & Player Programs, NBA
3. LZ Granderson, journalist and commentator, CNN & ESPN
4. Brett Haber, sportscaster, The Tennis Channel
5. David Kopay, former National Football League Player, author of The David Kopay Story
6. Mark Kriegel, commentator on NFL Network's morning show NFL AM, Author of Namath: A Biography; Pistol: The Life of Pete Maravich; and The Good Son: The Life of Boom Boom Mancini
7. Beth A. Livingston, assistant professor of human resource studies, Cornell University
8. Martina Navratilova, professional tennis player and coach
9. Akil Patterson, director of programs, Greco-Roman wrestler, Terrapin Wrestling Club
10. Nick Rogers, president, Minnesota United Football Club
11. Robbie Rogers, professional soccer player
12. Erin Sharoni, host, "Romering the World", Jim Rome on Showtime
13. Rennae Stubbs, professional tennis player

Yeah what a list of household names :rolleyes:

normanoffside

ceadaoin. wrote: »

McKinnon only started cycling in her late 20s. In the space of a few years she has risen to the top and has even won a world championship. Beating women who have trained their whole lives.

Same with Laurel Hubbard, and Tiffany abreau. Setting world records within a few years or even months of competing. Has anyone ever heard of this happening when people are competing against their own sex?

Martina has spent years in women's sports. She knows what she is talking about. It's pure misogyny and gaslighting to simply tell her to shut up , that she is wrong. Pretty much everyone is on her side here, with more people coming out in support publicly.

Nah to be fair the age group world championships are a joke.
It's just wealthy people who basically have to pay to represent their country (because federations won't pay to send a team to such meaningless championships). The athletes even have to buy their own singlets and tracksuits.
The same thing happens in Athletics and people come back with 'world medals' who would barely win their age category at the local GAA 5k.

One of the most ridiculous things in this whole debacle is McKinnon masquerading as a 'world champion'.

jmayo

normanoffside wrote: »

Nah to be fair the age group world championships are a joke.
It's just wealthy people who basically have to pay to represent their country (because federations won't pay to send a team to such meaningless championships). The athletes even have to buy their own singlets and tracksuits.
The same thing happens in Athletics and people come back with 'world medals' who would barely win their age category at the local GAA 5k.

One of the most ridiculous things in this whole debacle is McKinnon masquerading as a 'world champion'.

Ah now that last bit is debatable.
She could also be accused of masquerading as a woman.

Or even masquerading as a human being.

El CabaIIo

GreeBo wrote: »

But isn't that akin to saying "in elite basketball the number of people over 7ft tall is 140 times more than in what you might find in the normal population"?

I'm left waiting for the point of that argument other than "and thus its an advantage and clearly not fair"...

Because Basketball isn't a protected sport whereas Womens is by definition, short basketballers aren't protected in sport, women are. I think a huge issue in understanding this that politics gets in the way of science. What if I told you that the top three women in the Rio Olympics 800m final were all on testosterone inhibitors at one point.

They have all gone through male type puberty which amounts to the fundamental difference between male and female performance. The "transpobhic" comments levelled at Martina are completely ridiculous and are coming from a political bias. She has no issue with how these athletes identify, she just has an issue with people who went through male puberty competing in womens sport.

I wish people would understand the difference between gender and sex before they got outraged and calling people transphobic. The major issue is people not looking at data and information and speaking out.

Here's an article that everyone who is giving Martina stick and rushing to conclusions should read mainly focusing on Caster Semenya. The article is between highly regarded sport scientist Ross Tucker and former trans athlete/reknowned rights activist and biologist Joanna Harper. She is regarded as one of the top eperts on this.

https://sportsscientists.com/2016/05/hyperandrogenism-women-vs-women-vs-men-sport-qa-joanna-harper/

Is a trans woman like Joanna transphobic because she says the same as Martina? No because this whole outrage is way overblown.