Biological males in women's sport

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Zorya wrote: »

Yeah, I just kept blinking while reading it, and raising my eyebrows. And this is some sort of qualified person. Very odd.

Here is a quote from her - "T (ie testosterone) has become a powerful technology for the production of subjectivity, the most consequential of which is gender."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katrina_Karkazis

Not really qualified in the relevant area though. She’s not a biologist. Her qualifications seem to be all humanities-based.

The Rape of Lucretia

normanoffside wrote: »

A new low for McKinnon who has now said:

"Excluding transgender women from women's sports is akin to excluding black women from women's sports."

https://www.theblaze.com/news/transgender-cycling-champ-black-women-message?

_Godot_ wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/sport/athletics/2019/0429/1046371-cas-to-announce-verdict-on-semenyas-challenge-to-iaaf/

The result of her appeal to be announced on Wednesday. I hope she wins.

Are the two linked ? ie, is athletics trying to solve the problem of
- men claiming to be women competing in womens events
- or trying to limit the level of testosterone in womens events to exclude genuine women who are doping
- or trying to limit the amount of testosterone a (genuine, not trans) woman can have and compete ?

If its the first, it should be just ban trans and be done with it.
If the second, well, it seems a reasonable course of action
If the third, then its a grey area. And they probably should be allowed compete. But, one can draw the line for eligibility for womens, as a restricted rather than open competition anyway, anywhere you like. As it is, it is already a restriction. After that its just detail.

ingalway

If there is no difference in males and females then why are there separate male and female sports catagories at all? Why don’t men and women play on the same rugby teams? Compete against each other in swimming?
If there are biological women cheating in their sport by taking testosterone, or any other banned substance, then they of course should be banned. Trans women who are competing in womens events can be there purely by self ID as a female (fill out a form) no surgery/medical analysis. Testosterone levels do have to be lower than in mens sport BUT they have the huge advantage of already going through puberty with the benefit of male hormones giving them bigger bones, larger heart, lungs, more muscle mass, less fat etc.
I believe in equal rights for all and trans people are right to want and get those rights but that cannot be at the cost to biological women and girls - not only in sports events but in other places - seperate sex toilets, changing rooms, prisons etc.
New records are starting to be set in womens sport, particulalry in strength events, by trans women. If these records are to stand then women will have little hope of ever bettering them. Not only is it not fair to women who work incredibly hard to compete in their sports but as this becomes more widespread, and more people who watch sport become aware of it, there could be a horrible backlash against transgender people. I believe many trans people are fair and reasonable but there is a hardcore trans group that will countenance nothing other than trans women are women and trans men are men - and there is absolutely no room for debate whatsoever. Not good for anyone.

gypsy79

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Are the two linked ? ie, is athletics trying to solve the problem of
- men claiming to be women competing in womens events
- or trying to limit the level of testosterone in womens events to exclude genuine women who are doping
- or trying to limit the amount of testosterone a (genuine, not trans) woman can have and compete ?

If its the first, it should be just ban trans and be done with it.
If the second, well, it seems a reasonable course of action
If the third, then its a grey area. And they probably should be allowed compete. But, one can draw the line for eligibility for womens, as a restricted rather than open competition anyway, anywhere you like. As it is, it is already a restriction. After that its just detail.

It is closer to 3. But you are using the term woman as totally binary term. It is in 99.9999% of cases (and that is without going down the liberal loons case that gender is a social construct). But Caster does not comply. She is androgynous. As are two other 'girls' who competed in her Olympic final,

Trans people should not compete in female competitions under any circumstances (unless they were born female and havent started testosterone and are they even trans yet!!)). But androgynous people are a completely different case

gypsy79

ingalway wrote: »

If there is no difference in males and females then why are there separate male and female sports catagories at all? Why don’t men and women play on the same rugby teams? Compete against each other in swimming?
If there are biological women cheating in their sport by taking testosterone, or any other banned substance, then they of course should be banned. Trans women who are competing in womens events can be there purely by self ID as a female (fill out a form) no surgery/medical analysis. Testosterone levels do have to be lower than in mens sport BUT they have the huge advantage of already going through puberty with the benefit of male hormones giving them bigger bones, larger heart, lungs, more muscle mass, less fat etc.
I believe in equal rights for all and trans people are right to want and get those rights but that cannot be at the cost to biological women and girls - not only in sports events but in other places - seperate sex toilets, changing rooms, prisons etc.
New records are starting to be set in womens sport, particulalry in strength events, by trans women. If these records are to stand then women will have little hope of ever bettering them. Not only is it not fair to women who work incredibly hard to compete in their sports but as this becomes more widespread, and more people who watch sport become aware of it, there could be a horrible backlash against transgender people. I believe many trans people are fair and reasonable but there is a hardcore trans group that will countenance nothing other than trans women are women and trans men are men - and there is absolutely no room for debate whatsoever. Not good for anyone.

Adam Conover on JRE tried to claim that a trans woman winning the Olympics would be brilliant and advocated 6 years olds getting treatment to alter sex. It was car crash podcasting

gypsy79

ingalway wrote: »

If there is no difference in males and females then why are there separate male and female sports catagories at all? Why don’t men and women play on the same rugby teams? Compete against each other in swimming?
If there are biological women cheating in their sport by taking testosterone, or any other banned substance, then they of course should be banned. Trans women who are competing in womens events can be there purely by self ID as a female (fill out a form) no surgery/medical analysis. Testosterone levels do have to be lower than in mens sport BUT they have the huge advantage of already going through puberty with the benefit of male hormones giving them bigger bones, larger heart, lungs, more muscle mass, less fat etc.
I believe in equal rights for all and trans people are right to want and get those rights but that cannot be at the cost to biological women and girls - not only in sports events but in other places - seperate sex toilets, changing rooms, prisons etc.
New records are starting to be set in womens sport, particulalry in strength events, by trans women. If these records are to stand then women will have little hope of ever bettering them. Not only is it not fair to women who work incredibly hard to compete in their sports but as this becomes more widespread, and more people who watch sport become aware of it, there could be a horrible backlash against transgender people. I believe many trans people are fair and reasonable but there is a hardcore trans group that will countenance nothing other than trans women are women and trans men are men - and there is absolutely no room for debate whatsoever. Not good for anyone.

Adam Conover on JRE tried to claim that a trans woman winning the Olympics would be brilliant and advocated 6 years olds getting treatment to alter sex. It was car crash podcasting.

He also claimed that men only beat women in sport by designing all sport to be advantageous to men. And used the height of a hoop as an example

ceadaoin.

Another trans woman competitor smashing women's world records, in, judging by their comments, what appears to be their first time competing as a woman. This time in powerlifting. Wow, a male can lift heavier things than females, colour me shocked. How is this being allowed?

Plymouth Olympian Sharron Davies and Dame Kelly Holmes have reacted with dismay after a trans woman with "a male body with male physiology" set four new world records while wining a women’s powerlifiting event in America.

On Instagram, transgender powerlifter Mary Gregory shared her joy at winning 'nine out of nine' events at the Raw Powerlifting Federation Event - and setting new world records for Masters Squat, Open bench, Masters dead lift and Masters total.

However, former swimming champion Sharron Davies isn't congratulating Mary - and neither is Double Olympic Champion Dame Kelly Holmes.

On Twitter, Sharron said: "This is a trans woman a male body with male physiology setting a world record & winning a woman’s event in America in powerlifting. A woman with female biology cannot compete... it’s a pointless unfair playing field."

ingalway

gypsy79 wrote: »

It is closer to 3. But you are using the term woman as totally binary term. It is in 99.9999% of cases (and that is without going down the liberal loons case that gender is a social construct). But Caster does not comply. She is androgynous. As are two other 'girls' who competed in her Olympic final,

Trans people should not compete in female competitions under any circumstances (unless they were born female and havent started testosterone and are they even trans yet!!)). But androgynous people are a completely different case

I think Caster's case is very difficult and unique. It has been alluded to that she might be intersex and was raised by her family as female. Intersex people are not trans and I think it is very misleading and unfair to group them together. I don't think the sporting bodies have handled her case very well and it has come back to bite them and I think it has had and will continue to have a knock on affect with trans women in sports.

gypsy79

ingalway wrote: »

I think Caster's case is very difficult and unique. It has been alluded to that she might be intersex and was raised by her family as female. Intersex people are not trans and I think it is very misleading and unfair to group them together. I don't think the sporting bodies have handled her case very well and it has come back to bite them and I think it has had and will continue to have a knock on affect with trans women in sports.

androgynous means intersex!!

RollieFingers

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Another trans woman competitor smashing women's world records, in, judging by their comments, what appears to be their first time competing as a woman. This time in powerlifting. Wow, a male can lift heavier things than females, colour me shocked. How is this being allowed?

How could someone born a man and who trains to be a weight lifter not have a strength advantage over the majority of female competitors. That's madness, shouldn't be allowed. Absolutely nothing against anyone who's transgender but I don't see how that's fair on the women involved.

Zorya

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Another trans woman competitor smashing women's world records, in, judging by their comments, what appears to be their first time competing as a woman. This time in powerlifting. Wow, a male can lift heavier things than females, colour me shocked. How is this being allowed?

Was seeing that over the last few days, ceadaoin, it's crazy. Women's world records smashed. And apparently everyone at the competition was falling over themselves to be nice and suppportive to them - who are all these fecking eegits?

The lovely Mary...



Mary's Instagram :rolleyes:

https://www.instagram.com/75marylifts/

Littlehorny

Where has all the common sense gone in this? It's baffling that more people aren't kicking up a stink over this.
I remember Serena Williams saying years ago that if she competed in the men's game that she wouldn't even be able to get into the world's top 100.
If the greatest female player of all time and lets be honest she's a a tank of a woman cannot compete than what hope for the average female athlete?
With the big money that can be made in sports like tennis and golf then it's only a matter of time before a man declares himself female to join these tours.

suicide_circus

Zorya wrote: »

Was seeing that over the last few days, ceadaoin, it's crazy. Women's world records smashed. And apparently everyone at the competition was falling over themselves to be nice and suppportive to them - who are all these fecking eegits?

The lovely Mary...



Mary's Instagram :rolleyes:

https://www.instagram.com/75marylifts/

^^^take that cis weaklings!

suicide_circus

Littlehorny wrote: »

Where has all the common sense gone in this? It's baffling that more people aren't kicking up a stink over this.
I remember Serena Williams saying years ago that if she competed in the men's game that she wouldn't even be able to get into the world's top 100.
If the greatest female player of all time and lets be honest she's a a tank of a woman cannot compete than what hope for the average female athlete?
With the big money that can be made in sports like tennis and golf then it's only a matter of time before a man declares himself female to join these tours.

taken from wikipedia:

"1998: Karsten Braasch vs. the Williams sisters

Another event dubbed a "Battle of the Sexes" took place during the 1998 Australian Open[56] between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena Williams had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked outside the world's top 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both. Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple bottles of ice cold lager".[57][56] The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park,[58] after Braasch had finished a round of golf and two shandies. With a broken wrist and a badly sprained ankle following a bar brawl, He first took on Serena and after leading 5–0, beat her 6–1. Venus then walked on court and again Braasch was victorious, this time winning 6–2.[59] Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance". He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun".[60] Braasch said the big difference was that men can chase down shots much easier, and that men put spin on the ball that the women can't handle. The Williams sisters adjusted their claim to beating men outside the top 350.[56]"

Hoboo

Venus was 17, Serena 16. He was number 38 in the world in singles 4 years earlier. He was 36 in the world in doubles 6 weeks earlier. He was a 38 year old professional tennis player, not some bum off the street, playing two very talented kids.

It did shut them up though, back down to earth with a bang.

Candamir

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2019/may/01/caster-semenya-loses-landmark-legal-case-iaaf-athletics

CAS rejects appeal against IAAF. DSD athletes will have to reduce testosterone to compete in female divisions.

Good news for women’s sport.

pc7

Really interesting read, I like Ross Tucker he often appears on Off The Ball, his quote from that article is mind blowing in the terms of the difference it makes.
The sports scientist Ross Tucker, who was part of Semenya’s team of experts at Cas last month, believes it will mean the South African will run the 800m around seven seconds slower

victor8600

ingalway wrote: »

I believe in equal rights for all and trans people are right to want and get those rights but that cannot be at the cost to biological women and girls - not only in sports events but in other places - seperate sex toilets, changing rooms, prisons etc. ....

I agree with you on the sport side, but categorically disagree on everything else. If any person cannot behave appropriately in a changing room, regardless of their gender, there are laws and regulations for that. But transwomen are women, and transmen are men and they should be allowed to use facilities for their gender.

Candamir

victor8600 wrote: »

I agree with you on the sport side, but categorically disagree on everything else. If any person cannot behave appropriately in a changing room, regardless of their gender, there are laws and regulations for that. But transwomen are women, and transmen are men and they should be allowed to use facilities for their gender.

Can you appreciate that a young girl (or any aged woman) might feel uncomfortable changing in a room with naked male bodied (including genitals) trans women? While I understand that we should try to vindicate a trans persons rights, this shouldn’t come at the cost is a cis gendered persons rights either.

is_that_so

victor8600 wrote: »

I agree with you on the sport side, but categorically disagree on everything else. If any person cannot behave appropriately in a changing room, regardless of their gender, there are laws and regulations for that. But transwomen are women, and transmen are men and they should be allowed to use facilities for their gender.

You do have to take locations and who the users of such facilities might be into account. Not everyone is clearly as comfortable as you.

victor8600

victor8600 wrote: »

I agree with you on the sport side, but categorically disagree on everything else. If any person cannot behave appropriately in a changing room, regardless of their gender, there are laws and regulations for that. But transwomen are women, and transmen are men and they should be allowed to use facilities for their gender.

Transwomen are men who identify and/or present themselves as women. They're not actual women.

Zorya

Deleted User wrote: »

Transwomen are men who identify and/or present themselves as women. They're not actual women.

POsters who believe that people can actually transition sex - as in actually become the other sex - better be careful when it comes to things like blood transfusions. You know, where actual facts might mean that a male receiving blood from a transman, even if they believe that person is ACTUALLY a man, will be putting themselves in danger of higher mortality because the blood from a woman who has ever given birth - even if they magically one day become a man - is linked to an increased risk of death among male recipients. This risk will be aggravated as birth certs and medical records are changed retroactively to align with ideology.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Hoboo wrote: »

Venus was 17, Serena 16. He was number 38 in the world in singles 4 years earlier. He was 36 in the world in doubles 6 weeks earlier. He was a 38 year old professional tennis player, not some bum off the street, playing two very talented kids.

It did shut them up though, back down to earth with a bang.

Probably most remembered for his habit of chain smoking cigarettes between sets.

JohnnyFlash

Do you have to get your cock and balls removed to become Trans, or can you just suddenly identify as a woman? There’s a woman’s competition down at the golf club this Saturday and there’s a lovely trophy I wouldn’t mind winning. Might be able to drive one or two of the shorter par 4’s from the ladies tee.

victor8600

Candamir wrote: »

Can you appreciate that a young girl (or any aged woman) might feel uncomfortable changing in a room with naked male bodied (including genitals) trans women?....

Somebody somewhere is going to be less comfortable with any change. Caster Semenya is now effectively barred from competing, she (and we can agree that she is a female, right?) cannot compete neither in women or in men competitions. So she is now very uncomfortable, but this change gives a chance to compete for others.

Going back to your changing room question -- there are rules, some may be unwritten. I would expect a transwoman with male bits to cover those bits with a towel in the common area of a changing room, out of courtesy to others. This can be put as a written rule, if needed.

victor8600

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

...There’s a woman’s competition down at the golf club this Saturday and there’s a lovely trophy I wouldn’t mind winning. ....

Go ahead, I dare you to do this. Of course, the club may be within their rights to bar you from competing in any men competitions after that. But sure, winning a trophy is worth it, right?

victor8600

victor8600 wrote: »

Somebody somewhere is going to be less comfortable with any change. Caster Semenya is now effectively barred from competing, she (and we can agree that she is a female, right?) cannot compete neither in women or in men competitions.

I would not agree. My understanding is that she is intersex.

DEFTLEFTHAND

victor8600 wrote: »

Go ahead, I dare you to do this. Of course, the club may be within their rights to bar you from competing in any men competitions after that. But sure, winning a trophy is worth it, right?

No, you can be gender fluid these days.

JohnnyFlash

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

No, you can be gender fluid these days.

Might be Male Captain and Female Captain in the one year if my putting improves. Nice one.

Candamir

victor8600 wrote: »

Somebody somewhere is going to be less comfortable with any change. Caster Semenya is now effectively barred from competing, she (and we can agree that she is a female, right?) cannot compete neither in women or in men competitions. So she is now very uncomfortable, but this change gives a chance to compete for others.

Going back to your changing room question -- there are rules, some may be unwritten. I would expect a transwoman with male bits to cover those bits with a towel in the common area of a changing room, out of courtesy to others. This can be put as a written rule, if needed.

Semenya is not barred from female (or male) competition. She just has to abide by the testosterone limits, so that she competes fairly with women.
As to whether she is female, as I understand it, she has XY chromosomes and male gonads, and is intersex, and was raised as a female.

As for the changing room issue, I can see a problem when a trans woman refuses to cover her male bits, because, as you say, she has as much right to be there as the next person, and they aren’t required to cover themselves.