Biological males in women's sport

Danzy

RollieFingers wrote: »

How could someone born a man and who trains to be a weight lifter not have a strength advantage over the majority of female competitors. That's madness, shouldn't be allowed. Absolutely nothing against anyone who's transgender but I don't see how that's fair on the women involved.

It is so ****ing insane that deep down even those defending it know it to be so.

They however want an issue that they can preach to sinners and hunt out heretics for.

There is an increasing anti science world view creeping in to the activist left.

When a political movement becomes quasi religious, that'll happen.

victor8600

Candamir wrote: »

Semenya is not barred from female (or male) competition. She just has to abide by the testosterone limits, so that she competes fairly with women.

Haha, I see what you did there. She is not barred, but she only has to abide to take drugs with potentially significant side effects to alter her natural testosterone levels which are going to make her unable to compete. Can she take testosterone boosting drugs instead and compete as male? Would you be ok with that?

Danzy

Think they do not care about Semanya as such but with this self identifying thing growing and growing, they were probably going to have athletes claiming to be female with no hormone suppressors.

They are trying to clarify it as much as they can before hand.

victor8600

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Might be Male Captain and Female Captain in the one year if my putting improves. Nice one.

So go ahead, try it. Let us know how accepting your club with that. And then you have to win in the women 's competition, you seem to be sure that you can with only your words for the proof.

Danzy

victor8600 wrote: »

So go ahead, try it. Let us know how accepting your club with that. And then you have to win in the women 's competition, you seem to be sure that you can with only your words for the proof.

In many sports, say running a 400m etc one can be a unknown 17 yr old male who will not not win underage nationals but will sweep the Women's event at the Olympics.

You know that I know that but it is like talking to my Jehovah Witness Uncle, your not for turning, you have your faith.

I'm not knocking you for that, s strong belief system or cause, motivation is important in life.

Candamir

victor8600 wrote: »

Haha, I see what you did there. She is not barred, but she only has to abide to take drugs with potentially significant side effects to alter her natural testosterone levels which are going to make her unable to compete. Can she take testosterone boosting drugs instead and compete as male? Would you be ok with that?

If she doesn’t want to take testosterone blockers (which would still have her with testosterone levels well above that of female athletes btw), she can compete in the male division.
Why would she need to take testosterone ‘boosting’ drugs? She already has male levels of testosterone.

Trans (MtF) athletes have high natural levels of testosterone too. Should they be allowed compete in a female division without lowering their levels?

They should have dedicated categories for trans athletes, intersex athletes etc in the special olympics. Seems like a straightforward solution that is fair to everyone.

Lux23

Deleted User wrote: »

They should have dedicated categories for trans athletes, intersex athletes etc in the special olympics. Seems like a straightforward solution that is fair to everyone.

Special Olympics? They aren't disabled.

Lux23

Lux23 wrote: »

Special Olympics? They aren't disabled.

That's why I said a separate category. Games/events of this nature could be expanded to include athletes who cannot fairly compete against normal men and women due to intersex or trans issues.

Lux23

Lux23 wrote: »

Special Olympics? They aren't disabled.

And even that would be the Paralympics! Bizarre suggestion for a bizarre situation, I suppose.

VinLieger

Deleted User wrote: »

That's why I said a separate category. Games/events of this nature could be expanded to include athletes who cannot fairly compete against normal men and women due to intersex or trans issues.

But they aren't disabled...... unless that's what you are implying?

victor8600

Danzy wrote: »

You know that I know that but it is like talking to my Jehovah Witness Uncle, your not for turning, you have your faith.

You are mistaken, I have only the faith in being accountable for my own actions and my own words. I try not to generalize and do not assume other people's beliefs. Personally, I have no problem with transmen or transwomen in changing rooms, because I believe that the absolute majority of people are decent and considerate and would not intentionally cause embarrassment to others.

You are saying that "an unknown 17 year old male will sweep the Women's event Olympics". Ok, I believe you. That is why I am ok with the Court of Arbitration for Sport in relation to Caster Semenya. She and your hypothetical male have an unfair advantage over female athletes, so they cannot be allowed to compete. Does this make Caster Semenya less of a woman? Not in my opinion.

Now I would like to apply same principles to everyone. If somebody dreams to become a woman, even temporarily, even to win a woman's golf trophy, I am not going to stop them. But their golf club may put conditions on this, for example, same conditions as CAS imposed on Semenya. Fair is fair.

Do you agree?

Penn

Deleted User wrote: »

They should have dedicated categories for trans athletes, intersex athletes etc in the special olympics. Seems like a straightforward solution that is fair to everyone.

Why the Special Olympics? Why not just a dedicated category in the actual Olympics?

Penn

Penn wrote: »

Why the Special Olympics? Why not just a dedicated category in the actual Olympics?

It would be more of a token competition type thing. Give them an outlet to compete for dignity purposes etc.

If you gave it too much stature and put it in the real Olympics then I guarantee you'd have ex-Olympians pretending to be trans just to win a medal.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

So Caster Semenya has to reduce her testosterone:epitestosterone ratio levels to within whatever the normal range is for women in order to compete. That seems fair. I wonder will that harm her bodily? I guess she’ll have to find that out. I presume the races she has won prior to this will stand. It must be frustrating for the other competitors in those races but it wasn’t her fault.

victor8600

Candamir wrote: »

If she doesn’t want to take testosterone blockers (which would still have her with testosterone levels well above that of female athletes btw), she can compete in the male division.
Why would she need to take testosterone ‘boosting’ drugs? ...

"Normal testosterone levels in men are around 280 to 1,100 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dL). Women secrete much lower amounts, with normal levels considered to be between 15 and 70 ng/dL."

"The South African athlete has testosterone levels three times higher than is expected in women due to hyperandrogenism."

So taking even the highest limit of normal concentration of the hormone in women and multiplying by 3, gives 210 ng/dL which is lower than the lower limit for men. To make Caster's level approach the average male, she needs to boost her testosterone to 700 ng/dL (another 3X).

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

So Caster Semenya has to reduce her testosterone:epitestosterone ratio levels to within whatever the normal range is for women in order to compete. That seems fair.

It is not fair because she has had elevated levels of testosterone her entire adult life. Six months of blockers will not undo the permanent changes that high testosterone levels made to her muscular and skeletal systems.

And of course male athletic advantages derive from far more than just testosterone.

Candamir

victor8600 wrote: »

"Normal testosterone levels in men are around 280 to 1,100 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dL). Women secrete much lower amounts, with normal levels considered to be between 15 and 70 ng/dL."

"The South African athlete has testosterone levels three times higher than is expected in women due to hyperandrogenism."

So taking even the highest limit of normal concentration of the hormone in women and multiplying by 3, gives 210 ng/dL which is lower than the lower limit for men. To make Caster's level approach the average male, she needs to boost her testosterone to 700 ng/dL (another 3X).

If her levels are ‘only’ x3 what is ‘expected’ in normal women, she is already well below the threshold for IAAF competition. I suggest that statement is not quite accurate. I didn’t realise her medical records had been made public?

Zorya

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

So Caster Semenya has to reduce her testosterone:epitestosterone ratio levels to within whatever the normal range is for women in order to compete. That seems fair. I wonder will that harm her bodily? I guess she’ll have to find that out. I presume the races she has won prior to this will stand. It must be frustrating for the other competitors in those races but it wasn’t her fault.

Have to say I feel sorry for Caster. As you say it is not her fault.
Also, she is not trans. She is intersex, and from what I have seen around many intersex people are fed up to the teeth with being conflated with transgender. Reducing her levels of hormones will ultimately harm her body. These are serious medications.

Candamir

Zorya wrote: »

Have to say I feel sorry for Caster. As you say it is not her fault.
Also, she is not trans. She is intersex, and from what I have seen around many intersex people are fed up to the teeth with being conflated with transgender. Reducing her levels of hormones will ultimately harm her body. These are serious medications.

I agree with you, I also feel very sorry for her. It’s not her fault that she is intersex, she has done nothing wrong. But if the CAS had ruled that intersex athletes could compete in female divisions with no limit to their testosterone, that I think would be a huge argument for trans athletes to be allowed to compete with no limit. At the end of the day, having levels of testosterone far above female levels gives an unfair advantage, whether you’re trans, intersex or doping.

Zorya

Candamir wrote: »

I agree with you, I also feel very sorry for her. It’s not her fault that she is intersex, she has done nothing wrong. But if the CAS had ruled that intersex athletes could compete in female divisions with no limit to their testosterone, that I think would be a huge argument for trans athletes to be allowed to compete with no limit. At the end of the day, having levels of testosterone far above female levels gives an unfair advantage, whether you’re trans, intersex or doping.

Yes, I agree.

klaaaz

Candamir wrote: »

I agree with you, I also feel very sorry for her. It’s not her fault that she is intersex, she has done nothing wrong. But if the CAS had ruled that intersex athletes could compete in female divisions with no limit to their testosterone, that I think would be a huge argument for trans athletes to be allowed to compete with no limit. At the end of the day, having levels of testosterone far above female levels gives an unfair advantage, whether you’re trans, intersex or doping.

Trans athletes in professional competitions have already for years had to abide by rules in having low testosterone levels(not more than the levels in cisgender female athletes) hence no trans Olympic champions yet, Caster did not have to abide by those rules until now hence she won many Olympic medals despite her male puberty as a result of being intersex. Interesting in that they only apply those rules from 400m to the mile run, sounds like she was targeted.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Deleted User wrote: »

It is not fair because she has had elevated levels of testosterone her entire adult life. Six months of blockers will not undo the permanent changes that high testosterone levels made to her muscular and skeletal systems.

And of course male athletic advantages derive from far more than just testosterone.

Yes, they do. But testosterone is a huge part of it. Which was why East German athletes in the ‘70s and ‘80s were fed them. The male East German athletes were given testosterone too but the advantage it conferred on them was tiny whereas the women... well, we all know what happened there.

ceadaoin.

It sucks for semenya but she has an unfair advantage as a person who has gone through a male puberty (and allegedly in possession of testes and a y chromosome). The rights of all females to have a level playing field come before the rights of one individual. If she truly cared about women's sports and not just her own personal victories then she would accept the ruling. I fully understand her reluctance to take testosterone suppressors that could be damaging to her health. So don't do it and accept that you can't compete as a result.

Should her competitors campaign for the right to dope with testosterone to reach her level? I wonder how that would go down with the IAAF.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

ceadaoin. wrote: »

It sucks for semenya but she has an unfair advantage as a person who has gone through a male puberty (and allegedly in possession of testes and a y chromosome). The rights of all females to have a level playing field come before the rights of one individual. If she truly cared about women's sports and not just her own personal victories then she would accept the ruling. I fully understand her reluctance to take testosterone suppressors that could be damaging to her health. So don't do it and accept that you can't compete as a result.

Should her competitors campaign for the right to dope with testosterone to reach her level? I wonder how that would go down with the IAAF.

The thing is, athletes have two essential ingredients: the natural ability and a preternatural competitive streak that gives them the drive to capitalise on that natural ability by practicing and practicing and practicing. Athletes are freaks. That’s why so many of us are fascinated by them. Because we can’t imagine what it’s like to be that dogged. That’s why so many succumb to the lure of doping. And also that’s why she may have trouble accepting the ruling. That crazy competitive streak.

ceadaoin.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

The thing is, athletes have two essential ingredients: the natural ability and a preternatural competitive streak that gives them the drive to capitalise on that natural ability by practicing and practicing and practicing. Athletes are freaks. That’s why so many of us are fascinated by them. Because we can’t imagine what it’s like to be that dogged. That’s why so many succumb to the lure of doping. And also that’s why she may have trouble accepting the ruling. That crazy competitive streak.

Yes, of course she wants to keep her unfair advantage. What athlete wouldn't? that's why this ruling has to stand. If not the door is opened for all sorts of cheating .

And honestly, if it's true about the y chromosome and testes, why is Semenya even competing against women at all, even with reduced testosterone?

riffmongous

Hm I'm not convinced, if it's natural it's natural.. should every physical and biological trait be subject to a range and anyone outside it stopped from competing? What about the freakishly tall or with incredibly long legs who would gain massive advantages in certain sports? Elite sports are usually dominated by the genetically gifted, why is that any different?

Wibbs

riffmongous wrote: »

Hm I'm not convinced, if it's natural it's natural.. should every physical and biological trait be subject to a range and anyone outside it stopped from competing? What about the freakishly tall or with incredibly long legs who would gain massive advantages in certain sports? Elite sports are usually dominated by the genetically gifted, why is that any different?

On that basis being male is "natural" and "genetically gifted" if competing in women's sports so hey why not let men and women compete in the same events? Pretty soon the vast majority would be almost exclusively male events.

seamus

"Just because you chop off your penis, doesn't make you a woman. Biology is biology"

"Oh, except for Caster. That's complicated, you know, a weird fluke of birth, she's only kind of half a woman or something. Biology is complex"

Hypocrites.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Yes, of course she wants to keep her unfair advantage. What athlete wouldn't? that's why this ruling has to stand. If not the door is opened for all sorts of cheating .

And honestly, if it's true about the y chromosome and testes, why is Semenya even competing against women at all, even with reduced testosterone?

I’m not sure really. Those traits would seem to say she is male in reality. I’m not sure what the story is. I know that athletes have to submit DNA to prove their gender at competitions. Is Caster XY? Or something else?