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Biological males in women's sport

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    #1292
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Zorya wrote: »
    I hope you actually read what I wrote before enquiring. An earlier poster said that trans people BECAME the biological sex to which they transitioned. As in the new mantra ''Transwomen are women'' /''Transmen are men''.
    They are not. It is untrue. For many reasons. But one implication of the new ideology could prove dangerous medically.
    If the ideology is followed then a biological male receiving blood from a transman, who is supposedly now an actual man, is at higher risk of dying if that transman has ever in their life been pregnant. The biological male is 13% more likely to die in that case.

    https://www.livescience.com/60702-blood-transfusions-women-men.html

    Ah right. No proof on trans peoples blood endagering others then.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1293
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    We are at peak madness now.
    We should protect our women this insanity had set back women's sports 50 years, it's not a level playing field Trans athletes should have their own category.
    I'd love to know the motivation behind this pushing trans agenda
    "Our" women - who said that women are owned by anyone?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1294
    Charles Ingles
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    "Our" women - who said that women are owned by anyone?

    "Our" refers to our mothers sisters and daughters I never suggested they are "owned" by anybody.
    But we can support them and ensure they are treated fairly


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    #1295
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Ah right. No proof on trans peoples blood endagering others then.

    You don't do extrapolation, no? Simple consequential thinking?

    That's fine. Work away.


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    #1296
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    It's a pretty simple solution. If you have a y chromosome you are not allowed compete in the female competition. Simple test simple solution. None of this "intersex" pseudo science. Y means male, no y means not male.


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    #1297
    YFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    "Our" women - who said that women are owned by anyone?

    Lol


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    #1298
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,839 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    It's a pretty simple solution. If you have a y chromosome you are not allowed compete in the female competition. Simple test simple solution. None of this "intersex" pseudo science. Y means male, no y means not male.

    Intersex is established science.

    I've had intersex heifers on my farm, not unusual.

    Hoping you don't strain a testicle in the Women's weightlifting competition is a different thing altogether though.


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    #1299
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    Danzy wrote: »

    Hoping you don't strain a testicle in the Women's weightlifting competition is a different thing altogether though.

    :D:D


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    #1300
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,839 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    What did Gregory lift, the photo has 300 lbs approx on the deadlift bar.

    I was deadlifting 7 weeks when I hit that. I could cut to 82kgs and blow that out of the water.


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    #1301
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Danzy wrote: »
    Intersex is established science.

    I've had intersex heifers on my farm, not unusual.

    Hoping you don't strain a testicle in the Women's weightlifting competition is a different thing altogether though.

    It's an umbrella term for various pheno/geno types that don't fit standard xx/xy. No definitive test/definition hence the pseudo science. As the y chromosome is a gene desert and only passed from males to other males (father to son) it is the ONLY true indication of sex which is why it should be the only one that matters. The more you try to include variety the harder it is to agree. Keep it simple , Y's your only man!


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    #1302
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    Charles Ingles wrote: »
    We are at peak madness now.
    We should protect our women this insanity had set back women's sports 50 years, it's not a level playing field Trans athletes should have their own category.
    I'd love to know the motivation behind this pushing trans agenda

    She's not trans.... She has a naturally occurring amount of high testosterone.


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    #1303
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    batgoat wrote: »
    She's not trans.... She has a naturally occurring amount of high testosterone.

    I think the poster might be referring to Mary Gregory, mentioned a few posts up from theirs.

    https://fitnessvolt.com/transgender-athletes-world-record/


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    #1304
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    batgoat wrote: »
    She's not trans.... She has a naturally occurring amount of high testosterone.

    If she doesn't have a y chromosome she is being badly treated.


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    #1305
    Candamir
    Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Candamir


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    It's an umbrella term for various pheno/geno types that don't fit standard xx/xy. No definitive test/definition hence the pseudo science. As the y chromosome is a gene desert and only passed from males to other males (father to son) it is the ONLY true indication of sex which is why it should be the only one that matters. The more you try to include variety the harder it is to agree. Keep it simple , Y's your only man!

    It’s not pseudoscience- it’s a thing. Or more correctly, lots of things!
    Unfortunately the IAAF have painted themselves into a bit of a corner because they already allow, and have for years, XY athletes to compete in female categories.
    Possessing a Y chromosome would seem a good disqualifier, but that would be unfair to athletes like Dutee Chand.
    Personally I think posessing a Y chromosome (or more specifically the SRY gene) AND being sensitive to testosterone would be a good start. But there’s no way that will happen without a sea change in thinking. We're tripping over ourselves not to offend a very vocal minority in the Trans community, and any suggestion that they should be excluded from female sport won’t go down well.


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    #1306
    Brendan Delaney
    Site Banned Posts: 51 ✭✭Brendan Delaney


    Google Hannah Mouncey and tell me with a straight face he doesn't have an advantage over the women in his sport.


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    #1307
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    It's an umbrella term for various pheno/geno types that don't fit standard xx/xy. No definitive test/definition hence the pseudo science. As the y chromosome is a gene desert and only passed from males to other males (father to son) it is the ONLY true indication of sex which is why it should be the only one that matters. The more you try to include variety the harder it is to agree. Keep it simple , Y's your only man!


    Pseudo science?

    There is a huge swathe of science literature proving intersex exists

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Options
    #1308
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,080 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Zorya wrote: »
    You don't do extrapolation, no? Simple consequential thinking?

    That's fine. Work away.

    Nah - you are trying to claim something with no proof. Work away. Just dont expect me to buy your bullshït

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1309
    Sweetemotion
    Registered Users Posts: 2,502 ✭✭✭Sweetemotion


    kildare lad wrote: »
    He/she broke 4 world records in one day. Whoever thinks transgender should compete in women's competitions needs to get their head examined.


    https://fitnessvolt.com/transgender-athletes-world-record/


    No female records were broken. The RAW Powerlifting federation released this.

    Facts:
    1. The lifter identifies as female, and so entered the contest (with no
    prior consultation with the Meet Director or (100% RAW officials). Our rules,
    and the basis of separating genders for competition, are based on
    physiological classification rather than identification. On the basis of all
    information presented to the Board of Directors for this particular case, the
    conclusion made, is that the correct physiological classification is male.
    2. Since the lifter’s gender classification for the purpose of our rules is
    not consistent with female, no female records will be broken by these lifts.
    3. The lifter was uncontested during the event therefore no female lifters
    were denied a place finish. The lifter will be placed in a different category
    once the Transgender Division is introduced with a new policy.
    4. Drug testing results have not been completed and will take about
    another week to come back from the lab. As a drug test failure invalidates
    the lifts, we will need to wait for the results of the drug tests to determine if
    the lifts can be counted at all under our current set of rules.


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    #1310
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Sweetemotion wrote: »
    No female records were broken. The RAW Powerlifting federation released this.

    Facts:
    1. The lifter identifies as female, and so entered the contest (with no
    prior consultation with the Meet Director or (100% RAW officials). Our rules,
    and the basis of separating genders for competition, are based on
    physiological classification rather than identification. On the basis of all
    information presented to the Board of Directors for this particular case, the
    conclusion made, is that the correct physiological classification is male.
    2. Since the lifter’s gender classification for the purpose of our rules is
    not consistent with female, no female records will be broken by these lifts.
    3. The lifter was uncontested during the event therefore no female lifters
    were denied a place finish. The lifter will be placed in a different category
    once the Transgender Division is introduced with a new policy.
    4. Drug testing results have not been completed and will take about
    another week to come back from the lab. As a drug test failure invalidates
    the lifts, we will need to wait for the results of the drug tests to determine if
    the lifts can be counted at all under our current set of rules.

    Don't worry. They'll be forced to change their rules to allow transgender women enter women's competitions.

    The proposed transgender category is very sensible and therefore won't be allowed. It will be ruled discriminatory and gotten rid of. The transgender athlete will then fill in the correct paperwork and break all those female records at the next competition as long as they haven't failed the drugs test.


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    #1311
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,839 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Battle Corp is right, it is a blip for the trans athlete, next meeting or the one after the records will fall.


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    #1312
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 18,483 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Sweetemotion wrote: »
    No female records were broken. The RAW Powerlifting federation released this.

    Facts:
    1. The lifter identifies as female, and so entered the contest (with no
    prior consultation with the Meet Director or (100% RAW officials). Our rules,
    and the basis of separating genders for competition, are based on
    physiological classification rather than identification. On the basis of all
    information presented to the Board of Directors for this particular case, the
    conclusion made, is that the correct physiological classification is male.
    2. Since the lifter’s gender classification for the purpose of our rules is
    not consistent with female, no female records will be broken by these lifts.
    3. The lifter was uncontested during the event therefore no female lifters
    were denied a place finish. The lifter will be placed in a different category
    once the Transgender Division is introduced with a new policy.
    4. Drug testing results have not been completed and will take about
    another week to come back from the lab. As a drug test failure invalidates
    the lifts, we will need to wait for the results of the drug tests to determine if
    the lifts can be counted at all under our current set of rules.


    damn, thats a kick in the balls

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #1313
    Brendan Delaney
    Site Banned Posts: 51 ✭✭Brendan Delaney


    silverharp wrote: »
    damn, thats a kick in the balls

    Oh you!


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    #1314
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    CeCe.png

    Cece Telfer, who until January 2018 was competing as their birth sex, a biological male, has won a national championship for their Franklin Pierce University women's track & field team.

    https://www.fpuravens.com/sports/wtrack/2018-19/releases/052519WOTF-NCAA?fbclid=IwAR3LCE53GoKkEhe8FT0kjYADfCazW4auxuPzbj4A8D80IQkdkRzLEuD3s2s
    In just its seventh year of existence, the Franklin Pierce University women's track & field team has its first national champion. Senior CeCe Telfer (Lebanon, N.H.) took control of the 400-meter hurdles down the back stretch on Saturday night and went on to post victory by more than a second, in a personal collegiate-best time of 57.53 seconds. Telfer also added All-America First Team accolades in the 100-meter hurdles earlier in the day, on the third and final day of the NCAA Championships, hosted by Texas A&M-Kingsville, at Javelina Stadium.

    Telfer is the first student-athlete in Franklin Pierce history to collect an individual national title.



    Apparently it is okay that the girls were defeated because CeCe, according to Outsports, sometimes doesn't even win every race.

    https://www.outsports.com/2019/3/10/18257930/ncaa-cece-telfer-trans-woman-athlete-track-field


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    #1315
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,839 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Zorya wrote: »
    CeCe.png

    Cece Telfer, who until January 2018 was competing as their birth sex, a biological male, has won a national championship for their Franklin Pierce University women's track & field team.

    https://www.fpuravens.com/sports/wtrack/2018-19/releases/052519WOTF-NCAA?fbclid=IwAR3LCE53GoKkEhe8FT0kjYADfCazW4auxuPzbj4A8D80IQkdkRzLEuD3s2s





    Apparently it is okay that the girls were defeated because CeCe, according to Outsports, sometimes doesn't even win every race.

    https://www.outsports.com/2019/3/10/18257930/ncaa-cece-telfer-trans-woman-athlete-track-field

    CaCa Telfer is still about 13 seconds slower than the mens collegial event.


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    #1316
    KSU
    Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭KSU


    Zorya wrote: »
    CeCe.png

    Cece Telfer, who until January 2018 was competing as their birth sex, a biological male, has won a national championship for their Franklin Pierce University women's track & field team.

    https://www.fpuravens.com/sports/wtrack/2018-19/releases/052519WOTF-NCAA?fbclid=IwAR3LCE53GoKkEhe8FT0kjYADfCazW4auxuPzbj4A8D80IQkdkRzLEuD3s2s





    Apparently it is okay that the girls were defeated because CeCe, according to Outsports, sometimes doesn't even win every race.

    https://www.outsports.com/2019/3/10/18257930/ncaa-cece-telfer-trans-woman-athlete-track-field

    Put it this was 55y time would rank 3rd in NCAA division 1 (d2 is actually bottom ranked division below d3 due to scholarship and foreign athlete policies)

    This would be good enough to rank globally

    The races she is stating prove doesn’t have an advantage we’re hurdles and 200m what they don’t say is those races were run 15 min between.

    Also notable that hurdles is a highly technical even and moving from different height and step pattern that would be required going from men to female (the reason why men run 110 m and women run 100m in these events) it gets less technical and more physiological in longer distance where shows more that CeCe is a bad hurdler technique wise.

    Thankfully at D1 level hormone treatment is required for a year prior to competing as a rule and there are rules around this happening there (which is why the Connecticut sprinters have gone backwards since HS)


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    #1317
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLfUjrUO_7w


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    #1318
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Danzy wrote: »
    CaCa Telfer is still about 13 seconds slower than the mens collegial event.

    And?


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    #1319
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 18,483 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    CeCe Telfer and Transgender’s like HER will improve Women’s sport...They will close the gap on Men!

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #1320
    KSU
    Registered Users Posts: 946 ✭✭✭KSU


    silverharp wrote: »
    CeCe Telfer and Transgender’s like HER will improve Women’s sport...They will close the gap on Men!

    Actually they will kill women's sport. Biologically born women will lose opportunity of scholarships and sponsorship and many women believe the same

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIlq85dL0C4

    It also will have huge ramifications on drug testing (will have to ammend Testosterone thresholds and a number of others)


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    #1321
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,839 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    uptherebels wrote: »
    And?

    He was a poor runner, now she is on track for Olympic success.


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