Biological males in women's sport

judeboy101

KSU wrote: »

I have been following the case in depth for the past 10 years.

XY female are intersex as they can still have female reproductive organs while also having (under developed) male genitalia. That rule is based on Testosterone as a determining factor rather than a classification. IAAF didn't wanna go down the road of sex classifications as that brought its own host of legal issues where is testosterone levels is something which is quantifiable and through hormone treatment does not exclude an athlete (easier to say you have to get X treatment rather than a complete ban which doping life bans have proven are unenforceable)



You probably should look into it a bit more gene mutuation can have a whole host of affects on sex determination irrespective of chromosones (Klinefelter Syndrome, Turner Syndrome, Swyer syndrome just to name a few)

You can have as many X's and Y's as you want but i you accept humans are mammals then you have to accept that only MALE mammals carry the Y chromosome.

ceadaoin.

KSU wrote: »

I have been following the case in depth for the past 10 years.

XY female are intersex as they can still have female reproductive organs while also having (under developed) male genitalia.

That doesn't apply to semenya. As per the ruling, semenya was prohibited based on the rule that applied to athletes

who have one of a certain number of specified DSDs, which mean that they have:
male chromosomes (XY) not female chromosomes (XX)
testes not ovaries
circulating testosterone in the male range (7.7 to 29.4 nmol/L) not the (much lower) female range (0.06 to 1.68 nmol/L); and
the ability to make use of that testosterone circulating within their bodies (i.e., they are ‘androgen-sensitive’)

Semenya, does not have female reproductive organs and is an XY male who was misidentified as a female at birth

Calhoun

Imagine being a regular woman in 2019 and having to put up with this bull****, the worst thing is that if you complain as well your are silenced.

I think it was this thread where a lesbian was forced off of some council in the states and was unpersoned because she reported a sexual misconduct from a trans member of the board.

Similar crap here women without biological advantage being left behind and without a voice because they are down the totem pole.

Zorya

Calhoun wrote: »

Imagine being a regular woman in 2019 and having to put up with this bull****, the worst thing is that if you complain as well your are silenced.

I think it was this thread where a lesbian was forced off of some council in the states and was unpersoned because she reported a sexual misconduct from a trans member of the board.

Similar crap here women without biological advantage being left behind and without a voice because they are down the totem pole.

Julia Beck. Baltimore. Will some day be remembered as a heroine for publicly speaking out.

El_Duderino 09

There’s a show about this on BBC1 at the moment. Martina Navratilova going around discussing the issue with academics, sports scientists and athletes.

Very interesting.

TheDiceMan2020

Pump them a full of drugs until they resemble mutants and then pit them all against each other no matter what the fcuk they are

MrKingsley

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

There’s a show about this on BBC1 at the moment. Martina Navratilova going around discussing the issue with academics, sports scientists and athletes.

Very interesting.

I thought it was excellent until the last 10 minutes or so when Navratilova had to pretend to change her stance on the matter. I really think it was a BBC pr move to help with any potential backlash against her during Wimbledon

The fact that the only “evidence” of hormone treatment having an instant negative impact upon performance comes from a study with a sample size of 8 says an awful lot.

The lady talking about the right for trans women to compete amongst “born” females made excellent points I thought

El_Duderino 09

MrKingsley wrote: »

I thought it was excellent until the last 10 minutes or so when Navratilova had to pretend to change her stance on the matter. I really think it was a BBC pr move to help with any potential backlash against her during Wimbledon

The fact that the only “evidence” of hormone treatment having an instant negative impact upon performance comes from a study with a sample size of 8 says an awful lot.

The lady talking about the right for trans women to compete amongst “born” females made excellent points I thought

Bit harsh. MN went into the experience with a viewpoint. Having actually gained a lot of experience she changed her mind in some areas. She would be a fool if all that experience failed to impact her opinion at all.

I would have to watch it again but I don’t think she really changed her opinion on whether they should be allowed to take part in women’s sport. She certainly empathised with how difficult it must be for a trans person (athlete or not).
I can’t imagine how difficult it would be to have a body that doesn’t match my gender. But losing your job as an athlete on top of that must be even more difficult.

It would be hard not to see their point of view after actually spending time talking to them about it.

MrKingsley

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Bit harsh. MN went into the experience with a viewpoint. Having actually gained a lot of experience she changed her mind in some areas. She would be a fool if all that experience failed to impact her opinion at all.

I would have to watch it again but I don’t think she really changed her opinion on whether they should be allowed to take part in women’s sport. She certainly empathised with how difficult it must be for a trans person (athlete or not).
I can’t imagine how difficult it would be to have a body that doesn’t match my gender. But losing your job as an athlete on top of that must be even more difficult.

It would be hard not to see their point of view after actually spending time talking to them about it.

All good points. I meant more so that her mind hadn’t changed regarding trans athletes competing in elite sports.

I absolutely believed her when she spoke about empathizing with the athletes. And do think she went into it with an open mind. But I will be cynical and say that the BBC were the ones pushing it.

DEFTLEFTHAND

India Willoughby a trans women journalist stated that there's currently 2000 male 100m sprinters alive today who have ran faster than the fasted female time in history.

1500 of the top male tennis players could beat Serena Williams.

What's to stop one of these guys going on the female tour for a few yrs? With the same prize money on offer?

Biology is just a fact of life that we have to accept. At the elite level men and women will never be able to complete with each other on an equal footing.

B.A._Baracus

Older I get the more I realise this world is mad. Complete and utter mad. Stuff like this just confirms it and the messed up thing is there are those who will find it perfectly fine, fair and acceptable for a transgender (man to woman) person competing against a naturally born woman.

DEFTLEFTHAND

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Older I get the more I realise this world is mad. Complete and utter mad. Stuff like this just confirms it and the messed up thing is there are those who will find it perfectly fine, fair and acceptable for a transgender (man to woman) person competing against a naturally born woman.

This type of stuff always flourishes in peace time.

Some sort of war will happen in the west eventually or maybe a climate emergency and there will be a complete revert to nature.

It's happened before it will happen again.

suicide_circus

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

This type of stuff always flourishes in peace time.

Some sort of war will happen in the west eventually or maybe a climate emergency and there will be a complete revert to nature.

It's happened before it will happen again.

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

El_Duderino 09

MrKingsley wrote: »

All good points. I meant more so that her mind hadn’t changed regarding trans athletes competing in elite sports.

I absolutely believed her when she spoke about empathizing with the athletes. And do think she went into it with an open mind. But I will be cynical and say that the BBC were the ones pushing it.

That’s fair enough. I agree her mind hadn’t changed on the principle of trans athletes. But I think the fact that it’s so flippantly thrown out there “what’s to stop... for the money...”.

I think the thing that MN changed was her understanding of transgenderism. It’s such a serious issue that people aren't faking it simply to win a medal. It’s not happening. People suggesting that athletes might do it just for the money is pretty wide of the mark.

A few people in the world would chop off their head if they thought it would make them famous. But it’s not happening often in athletics

BeerWolf

MtF should have its own category in sports. It's an inherent unfair advantage over naturally born women, and makes a mockery of women that worked hard to get to where they are in sports.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

India Willoughby a trans women journalist stated that there's currently 2000 male 100m sprinters alive today who have ran faster than the fasted female time in history.

1500 of the top male tennis players could beat Serena Williams.

What's to stop one of these guys going on the female tour for a few yrs? With the same prize money on offer?

Biology is just a fact of life that we have to accept. At the elite level men and women will never be able to complete with each other on an equal footing.

I suppose what will have to happen is that in order to compete, somebody who says they are transitioning from male to female would have had to have started the process in some irreversible way. Of course, they would still have a huge physical advantage but it would discourage any chancers.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I suppose what will have to happen is that in order to compete, somebody who says they are transitioning from male to female would have had to have started the process in some irreversible way. Of course, they would still have a huge physical advantage but it would discourage any chancers.

How can that be legal if there is no legal distinction between a trans woman and a woman.

El_Duderino 09

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

How can that be legal if there is no legal distinction between a trans woman and a woman.

The legal part was the level of testosterone in the blood. But the limit is 5 times higher than a normal woman. Seems to me the answer is to reduce the allowable limit to whatever the reasonable limit for a female athlete.

There’s probably much more to it than testosterone. But that seems like a good start.

BattleCorp

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The legal part was the level of testosterone in the blood. But the limit is 5 times higher than a normal woman. Seems to me the answer is to reduce the allowable limit to whatever the reasonable limit for a female athlete.

There’s probably much more to it than testosterone. But that seems like a good start.

The average man is bigger than the average female, with a greater muscle density etc., so logic dictates that the average trans woman would be bigger than the average woman. There are a lot of sports where size makes a hell of a difference so yeah, there's a lot more to it than testosterone.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The legal part was the level of testosterone in the blood. But the limit is 5 times higher than a normal woman. Seems to me the answer is to reduce the allowable limit to whatever the reasonable limit for a female athlete.

There’s probably much more to it than testosterone. But that seems like a good start.

Yes but no but.

The ideology of the trans movement is that a trans person is the gender/sex they have changed to.

That’s also the law in Ireland and some other countries. I assume therefore any challenge to the IOC rules in countries that allow self identification would win as its legally discriminatory.

El_Duderino 09

BattleCorp wrote: »

The average man is bigger than the average female, with a greater muscle density etc., so logic dictates that the average trans woman would be bigger than the average woman. There are a lot of sports where size makes a hell of a difference so yeah, there's a lot more to it than testosterone.

Yeah. It’s a complicated issue.

BattleCorp

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah. It’s a complicated issue.

In my mind it isn't complicated though.

People born male compete against people born male.
People born female compete against people born female.
People who transition from male to female compete against others who transitioned from male to female.
Problem solved.

Potential-Monke

I agree with BattleCorp 100%, but as others have pointed out, someone who has transitioned from male to female now identify as female, and due to legislation they are legally allowed to enter female competitions. Having these people identify as trans would be seen as sexist or something like that, as they identify as a woman so shouldn't have to. I personally don't agree with this, but that's the law as far as I'm aware. The law needs to be changed before any of this can change.

As an aside, are there any females who have transitioned to male and start dominating their chosen sport then?

Silentcorner

The issue is the amount of chancers who will spot an opportunity to make some easy cash...the result will be devastating to women in professional sport...all because we can't say certain things anymore because people will react hysterically!

Womens professional sport is under enough pressure as it is.

alan partridge aha

Sports bodies need to get a handle on this immediately, stop trans people taking part in women's sport. If they want to take part start their own tournaments or take part in the mens. Simples.

El_Duderino 09

Silentcorner wrote: »

The issue is the amount of chancers who will spot an opportunity to make some easy cash...the result will be devastating to women in professional sport...all because we can't say certain things anymore because people will react hysterically!

Womens professional sport is under enough pressure as it is.

How large do you think the amount of chancers is? Honestly. I doubt anyone would seriously transition from male to female for some easy cash. Do you not take your gender seriously? I couldn't imagine transitioning if I really wanted to because I was transgender, let alone doing it for a few quid.

DEFTLEFTHAND

There's even more than physical strength at play.

Males evolved with hunting instincts and are seen on average to possess greater spacial awarness and hand eye coordination skills.


In sports this manifests in the likes of darts , pool and snooker. At the elite levels.

Potential-Monke

Shur what is gender any more? The [Oxford](https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/american_english/gender) definition is:

"the fact of being male or female, especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences, not differences in biology"

So going by that,I initially read as only 2, but we know that's no longer the case, so without a proper definition what does it matter any more? I still think there should be separate competitions and sports for trans people, but that goes against their right to identify as whatever, so it's a catch 22 really...

Silentcorner

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

How large do you think the amount of chancers is? Honestly. I doubt anyone would seriously transition from male to female for some easy cash. Do you not take your gender seriously? I couldn't imagine transitioning if I really wanted to because I was transgender, let alone doing it for a few quid.

Well...it will depend on the amount of money involved in the sport, you are underestimating how completely selfish athletes can be, and if a man isn't within an asses roar of winning in his discipline he now has options

You can't be thinking about the now, you need to think about what will happen in 5/10 years time, encouraging women into sport is vital and needs to be encouraged and it needs to be a level playing field.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

How large do you think the amount of chancers is? Honestly. I doubt anyone would seriously transition from male to female for some easy cash. Do you not take your gender seriously? I couldn't imagine transitioning if I really wanted to because I was transgender, let alone doing it for a few quid.

No need to transition.