Biological males in women's sport

Sir Oxman

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Yeh. I’m blocked from seeing about 1 in 20 Twitter accounts now and when I go to private mode to see who they are it’s invariably the pronoun people. And I haven’t said much about trans, one or two comments is all.

This is what happens when social policy is underhandedly, quietly taken over by well funded minority pressure groups (eg Stonewall UK/Mermaids in the UK, LGB orgs aided and abetted by so-called feminists here)
The situation in the UK is awful and a warning for here - Youth Hostels policy is transgenders in female dorms unless you've been sexually abused in the past whereby you have to give 2 weeks notice, explain the abuse and you might get a female only place.
The cult getting universities (remember them, former institutes of free thinking) to sack and/or deplatform *anyone* who doesn't uncritically agree about *everything* they believe.
If by some miracle, these lecturers are allowed their lawful right to give/attend a talk they are subjected to violence.

Womens sexual abuse centres advertising a counsellor job for anyone who id's as woman.
Poltical parties having men as womens' officers (abusive men by the way, LAbour and the Greens)
Women's business award being doled out to part-time transgender.
Actual trans sexuals being given dog's abuse/doxxed/threatened for daring to give a contrary view to the hivemind.
Sports bodies falling over themselves to erase womens.
Schools not telling parents if their child has decided to id as female/male, unisexing the toilet facilities without regard to young girls starting menstruation.
Public bodies have been captured by policy guidelines drawn up by the above named groups with zero attempt to gather the views of other more critically nuanced groups.



No male spaces are harmed by all of this, only women.


Behind the scenes, social policy is being dictated by people who deny the biological existence of male and female and they have the decision makers in thrall for fear of being branded by a 'phobia' or an 'ism'


Twitter is a private company but what they are doing is a looksee at who and the scope of who has been captured by this utter bullsh1t.

Damn, even this place demands you say black is white, up is down and fcuk an honest, non-aggressive opinion/view.

cloudatlas

There aren’t enough research studies yet on performance differences, some have only just received funding. I doubt there’s enough time before the olympics to draw conclusions, this kind of irrefutable evidence is required to shut down the detractors. The New Zealand weightlifter is very problematic. People will tune in and then discount and laugh at the competition because of this.

fyfe79

Dante7 wrote: »

Bring it on. Bring on the obvious biological males competing in the women's events in the Olympics and winning gold medals. Maybe then the average punter will start seeing this nonsense that has been promoted and quietly legislated for behind our backs.

This is how crazy everything is now. Only an absurd situation such as you described with transgender people winning everything in women’s sports and essentially reducing it to a freak show, will something change. Even then, I’m not convinced it would!

When Navratilova, of all people, got blasted for voicing her objection is when I realised fully the power of the mob and social media. It’s a dangerous precedent which could be applied to any situation in world affairs.

One eyed Jack

fyfe79 wrote: »

This is how crazy everything is now. Only an absurd situation such as you described with transgender people winning everything in women’s sports and essentially reducing it to a freak show, will something change. Even then, I’m not convinced it would!

Sports has been a freak show of sorts throughout human history since sports organisations developed. The introduction of people who are transgender in sports is just another development in sports. It’s the governing bodies of these sports have always decided the rules on who is permitted to participate and under what conditions they may participate, not any mob on social media acting as though they have any decision in the matter as to whether or not people who are transgender may participate in sports.

Simone Biles can launch herself off the ground nine foot into the air, twice her own height. That’s a freak, and she’s picking up a ton of gold medals in competitions. Her short stature is influential in her ability to be able to do this, but a more influential factor has been that she has dedicated her whole life to being able to do it. That’s what makes her stand out from her competition. A boy might be able to achieve the same some day, but as things are now, they aren’t, and it is Simone Biles who has captured the imaginations of scientists, sports enthusiasts and the general public in the US with what she has done, what she can do and what she is doing.

There won’t be a situation where people who are transgender are “winning everything”, because they still have to qualify to be able to compete in their chosen sport, the same as anyone else, either male or female, and people who are bitter losers will always come up with ways to try and tear down their competition, such as accusing them of being on drugs, and now the new tack is accusing their competitors of being transgender. Chinese and Russian athletes have always been accused by the Americans of being on drugs and that’s how they’re winning all the competitions they enter into. There’s nothing new in this latest story about the Chinese athletes either.

fyfe79 wrote: »

When Navratilova, of all people, got blasted for voicing her objection is when I realised fully the power of the mob and social media. It’s a dangerous precedent which could be applied to any situation in world affairs.

Why is Navratilova’s opinion being regarded as being any sort of an authority in the first place? She was originally as I understand it some sort of a representative for people who are LGBT in sport, then she expressed her sincerely held views on what she determines are or aren’t women and under what conditions they should or shouldn’t be permitted to compete in sports... and she received a backlash for it. What did she think was going to happen? The same way you’re complaining about the dangerous precedent being set by the power of the mob and social media is because you’re blind to the fact that it’s been you and those who agree with you have the power of the mob behind you on social media, and now you’re complaining because that power is being threatened? It’s an even more dangerous precedent IMO when we allow people to dictate how other people should think and behave without question.

FTA69

Yeah that’s all well and good mate but if you think people born and raised and developed as males should be involved in women’s boxing and rugby and the like then you’re off your head.

silverharp

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Sports has been a freak show of sorts throughout human history since sports organisations developed. The introduction of people who are transgender in sports is just another development in sports.

its a development, just not a positive one. Its telling that trans "male" athletes will probably never feature in any serious competitions.

One eyed Jack

FTA69 wrote: »

Yeah that’s all well and good mate but if you think people born and raised and developed as males should be involved in women’s boxing and rugby and the like then you’re off your head.

Here’s the thing as far as I’m concerned - sports, and the rules governing sports, and the governing bodies of these sports, have changed and evolved throughout their history. At the same time, there were always people who demanded that the rules should stay the same. It was no small coincidence that the people who demanded the rules stay the same were the people who stood to lose the most from the rules being changed. I’m reminded of a time when there were complaints about black athletes competing in sports because they had biological advantages over white athletes, particularly in boxing and athletics. Black people dominate both boxing and athletics today and white boxers and athletes are still competing in the sports.

Even if we did take physical sports like rugby or boxing - have the rules not changed to make the sports safer? Yes, people still get injured and sometimes their injuries are life-threatening or in some tragic circumstances their lives are ended, but that has never meant we bar those people from participating in the sport or we call a halt to the sport itself. We can change the bloody rules so that men and women can compete in the same sports or compete in their chosen categories in those sports, and still there will always be winners and sore losers. In this case ironically if we allow the losers to dictate the rules, then we may as well start handing out participation medals so that everyone gets to feel like a winner and everyone is equal. Kinda takes the whole competitive element out of the sport.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

One eyed Jack wrote: »

There won’t be a situation where people who are transgender are “winning everything”, because they still have to qualify to be able to compete in their chosen sport, the same as anyone else, either male or female, and people who are bitter losers will always come up with ways to try and tear down their competition, such as accusing them of being on drugs, and now the new tack is accusing their competitors of being transgender.

The new tack is accusing them of being transgender when they are transgender?

And transgender athletes won’t win all female competitions, but most. In fact, if accepted, most female professional sports will be biologically male.

Chinese and Russian athletes have always been accused by the Americans of being on drugs and that’s how they’re winning all the competitions they enter into. There’s nothing new in this latest story about the Chinese athletes either.

Again are you saying they are not transgender?

Why is Navratilova’s opinion being regarded as being any sort of an authority in the first place? She was originally as I understand it some sort of a representative for people who are LGBT in sport, then she expressed her sincerely held views on what she determines are or aren’t women and under what conditions they should or shouldn’t be permitted to compete in sports... and she received a backlash for it. What did she think was going to happen? The same way you’re complaining about the dangerous precedent being set by the power of the mob and social media is because you’re blind to the fact that it’s been you and those who agree with you have the power of the mob behind you on social media, and now you’re complaining because that power is being threatened?

The mob on social media is pro trans, as is twitter policy. In fact feminists have been banned for minor complaints about trans. As for Navratilova she’s worried that biological women won’t be able to compete in future in Tennis. Which is correct of course as there are hundreds of male tennis players who are better than the best female tennis player.

It’s an even more dangerous precedent IMO when we allow people to dictate how other people should think and behave without question.

It is, which is what the trans movement is doing.

ingalway

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Sports has been a freak show of sorts throughout human history since sports organisations developed. The introduction of people who are transgender in sports is just another development in sports. It’s the governing bodies of these sports have always decided the rules on who is permitted to participate and under what conditions they may participate, not any mob on social media acting as though they have any decision in the matter as to whether or not people who are transgender may participate in sports.


Simone Biles can launch herself off the ground nine foot into the air, twice her own height. That’s a freak, and she’s picking up a ton of gold medals in competitions. Her short stature is influential in her ability to be able to do this, but a more influential factor has been that she has dedicated her whole life to being able to do it. That’s what makes her stand out from her competition. A boy might be able to achieve the same some day, but as things are now, they aren’t, and it is Simone Biles who has captured the imaginations of scientists, sports enthusiasts and the general public in the US with what she has done, what she can do and what she is doing.


There won’t be a situation where people who are transgender are “winning everything”, because they still have to qualify to be able to compete in their chosen sport, the same as anyone else, either male or female, and people who are bitter losers will always come up with ways to try and tear down their competition, such as accusing them of being on drugs, and now the new tack is accusing their competitors of being transgender. Chinese and Russian athletes have always been accused by the Americans of being on drugs and that’s how they’re winning all the competitions they enter into. There’s nothing new in this latest story about the Chinese athletes either.


Why is Navratilova’s opinion being regarded as being any sort of an authority in the first place? She was originally as I understand it some sort of a representative for people who are LGBT in sport, then she expressed her sincerely held views on what she determines are or aren’t women and under what conditions they should or shouldn’t be permitted to compete in sports... and she received a backlash for it. What did she think was going to happen? The same way you’re complaining about the dangerous precedent being set by the power of the mob and social media is because you’re blind to the fact that it’s been you and those who agree with you have the power of the mob behind you on social media, and now you’re complaining because that power is being threatened? It’s an even more dangerous precedent IMO when we allow people to dictate how other people should think and behave without question.

Simone Biles is a WOMAN; she competes in the female sports category, against other WOMEN. SHE is outstandingly good and generally beats the other WOMEN. That is the nature of sport, someone has a natural talent then works incredibly hard to hone that skill to become the very best against their competition.
Martina Navratilova did more for LGB and amazingly the T than nearly anyone else I can think of in an era when it was incredibly difficult. Not only did she win 18 grand slams, many of them in an era of deep homophobia, she had a trans woman coach in the early 1980's - can you imagine the controversy that caused?
That coach, Renee Richards, who had previously played professionally as a man, had sex reassignment surgery and went to court (legal) to play in the 1977 US Women's Open and became the first trans woman to play professional sport. Richards recently said:

“The notion that one can take hormones and be considered a woman without sex reassignment surgery is nuts in my opinion,” Richards says.
She also revealed that she would never have competed as a woman if she had transitioned in her 20s rather than 40s because she "would have beaten the women to a pulp".

There are no greater mob on Twitter than TRA's - a vicious bunch whose only mantra is Trans Women are Women and going on about gay people being obsessed by genitals, which in itself is homophobic.
Renee Riachards interview: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tennis/2019/03/26/meet-renee-richards-sports-accidental-transgender-pioneer/

One eyed Jack

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

The new tack is accusing them of being transgender when they are transgender?

And transgender athletes won’t win all female competitions, but most. In fact, if accepted, most female professional sports will be biologically male.

Well it seems that way? I mean, the athletes themselves aren’t claiming to be women, it’s other people are pointing out that they look like, and sound like, men. I can remember Sonia O’ Sullivan competing and I remember the very same thought occurring to me - “That’s a woman?” Simply because at the time she didn’t look like any woman I’d ever known. She was ripped and sinewy and perfectly built in such a way as she stood out from all her other competitors. I think the same thing is happening with the Chinese competitors here. This isn’t the same as that Rachel McKinnon one who was giving it welly on social media. She was just painful, hardly a word about her now, thankfully!

I think the same will happen in any sport - it’s inevitable that people who are transgender are going to want to compete in sports, and it is the governing bodies in those sports who will determine the criteria which athletes must comply with in order to participate in competitions. Demanding that athletes must harm themselves in order to participate in competitions is simply unethical in my view, and by harm themselves I mean that they must submit themselves to surgery and hormone regimes that will do them harm. They do that kind of thing in Middle Eastern countries. I think we’re a bit more civilised in this part of the world, and I’m thankful that sports governing bodies are taking a different approach to the issue of people who are transgender who want to participate in competitions.

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Again are you saying they are not transgender?

I haven’t any evidence to say they are transgender. Nobody has. There have been accusations levelled at the athletes alright on social media that they are transgender, but nothing so far in the way of evidence apart from they look and sound like men. Female athletes generally do look and sound like men anyway! Again, this isn’t the same thing as Rachel McKinnon who came out with all sorts of nonsense on social media which is best simply ignored IMO, she’s simply a shìte role model for anyone, let alone people who are transgender.

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

The mob on social media is pro trans, as is twitter policy. In fact feminists have been banned for minor complaints about trans. As for Navratilova she’s worried that biological women won’t be able to compete in future in Tennis. Which is correct of course as there are hundreds of male tennis players who are better than the best female tennis player.

There are all sorts of mobs on social media, honestly, so I wouldn’t use the content that a private company dictates is or isn’t permitted on their platform as evidence of anything. It’s not as though there aren’t already hundreds of avenues on the Internet available to people who are kicked off one platform or dozens of social media platforms, that there’s nowhere else for them to go where their opinions will be appreciated, validated and promoted. Twitter, Facebook, Youtube et al are only as popular as they are because of people expressing popular opinions and having those opinions appreciated, validated and promoted. They’re not the best place to start if one is genuinely interested in having an honest discussion that their opinions won’t always be appreciated, validated and promoted. Boards at least for all the times I’ve disagreed with some of their policies, is still a place where I feel an honest discussion can be had, apart from the fact that I just can’t make head nor tails of Twitter and Facebook anyway! :rolleyes:

Navratilova’s paranoia (and that’s what it is), simply shouldn’t be entertained IMO. The sport of tennis is bigger than just her opinion being the determining one in who does or doesn’t get to play in competitions in a sport they want to participate in. Had people said lesbians can’t play tennis or lesbians shouldn’t be allowed in the changing rooms because they’ll be eyeballing all the women (of course like, because that’s what every lesbian does, right?), Navratilova would have kicked up an almighty stink, and she did change the game for women back in the 70’s and 80’s, and now she’s in the position where she has the ability to have a positive influence on the game, and she decides to say “those people can’t play with us”. Talk about pulling the ladder up after yourself!

I’m not denying there are of course plenty of male players who are able to compete at a higher level than female players, the rules are completely different for both male and female players, but the rules can be changed to make the playing field fairer to all competitors if fairness is the intent of excluding people from playing in competitions. The rules are changed all the time to make the game fairer to all competitors, so this isn’t any sort of a revolutionary suggestion. It’s the same as the point I made earlier when some people complained about black people participating in sports that they have biological advantages over white people - they do, and that hasn’t stopped white people competing, any more than the inclusion of people who are transgender in sports would prevent women (or indeed men) from competing. People who aren’t transgender will still dominate competitions simply because there’s more of them, and there’s more to competing and winning in sports than just biology. As I always understood sports anyway they were about pushing the human body beyond it’s limits. That’s what made elite sportspeople who they are, it’s why Sonia O’ Sullivan could lap me easily twice and three times over without so much as breaking a sweat, or why I just wouldn’t last one round with Katie Taylor, not because she could knock me out, but simply because I wouldn’t have the endurance to be able to last one round of being constantly pummelled while I wouldn’t even get a look in! I know it’s not a fair comparison because I haven’t trained like the athletes I mentioned, but if I had, then I might have some chance, but I don’t imagine I’d still be able to compete at their level. You wouldn’t fancy Sonia’s chances against Katie and vice versa in their respective sports either, so it’s not just the case that because they’re women nobody who isn’t a woman should be permitted to compete against them. There are other factors which determine if a competition is fair or not, besides biological advantages or disadvantages.

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

It is, which is what the trans movement is doing.

Well, it’s what the trans rights movement (some of them anyway, let’s be fair to those people who aren’t complete fcukwits) are trying to do, and they’re not doing anyone any favours IMO. It’s easy to see that they’re acting out of self-interest, no different to the way Navratilova is acting now. The difference between them of course is that Navratilova is Navratilova, one of the greatest tennis players there ever was in the sport, and she got there because she was given every opportunity to do so, opportunities she now wants to deny other people. I would question on that basis why anyone nowadays should take any heed of her when her opinions carry about as much weight as a bishop in a brothel and she simply doesn’t have the authority to stop people who are transgender from competing in sports. Excluding people has never been what sports are about. Sports have always been about the opposite - including people and giving people opportunities they wouldn’t otherwise have had.

Man gives birth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu6fQIZN3c0

cloudatlas

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Well it seems that way? I mean, the athletes themselves aren’t claiming to be women, it’s other people are pointing out that they look like, and sound like, men. I can remember Sonia O’ Sullivan competing and I remember the very same thought occurring to me - “That’s a woman?” Simply because at the time she didn’t look like any woman I’d ever known. She was ripped and sinewy and perfectly built in such a way as she stood out from all her other competitors. I think the same thing is happening with the Chinese competitors here. This isn’t the same as that Rachel McKinnon one who was giving it welly on social media. She was just painful, hardly a word about her now, thankfully!

I think the same will happen in any sport - it’s inevitable that people who are transgender are going to want to compete in sports, and it is the governing bodies in those sports who will determine the criteria which athletes must comply with in order to participate in competitions. Demanding that athletes must harm themselves in order to participate in competitions is simply unethical in my view, and by harm themselves I mean that they must submit themselves to surgery and hormone regimes that will do them harm. They do that kind of thing in Middle Eastern countries. I think we’re a bit more civilised in this part of the world, and I’m thankful that sports governing bodies are taking a different approach to the issue of people who are transgender who want to participate in competitions.





I haven’t any evidence to say they are transgender. Nobody has. There have been accusations levelled at the athletes alright on social media that they are transgender, but nothing so far in the way of evidence apart from they look and sound like men. Female athletes generally do look and sound like men anyway! Again, this isn’t the same thing as Rachel McKinnon who came out with all sorts of nonsense on social media which is best simply ignored IMO, she’s simply a shìte role model for anyone, let alone people who are transgender.





There are all sorts of mobs on social media, honestly, so I wouldn’t use the content that a private company dictates is or isn’t permitted on their platform as evidence of anything. It’s not as though there aren’t already hundreds of avenues on the Internet available to people who are kicked off one platform or dozens of social media platforms, that there’s nowhere else for them to go where their opinions will be appreciated, validated and promoted. Twitter, Facebook, Youtube et al are only as popular as they are because of people expressing popular opinions and having those opinions appreciated, validated and promoted. They’re not the best place to start if one is genuinely interested in having an honest discussion that their opinions won’t always be appreciated, validated and promoted. Boards at least for all the times I’ve disagreed with some of their policies, is still a place where I feel an honest discussion can be had, apart from the fact that I just can’t make head nor tails of Twitter and Facebook anyway! :rolleyes:

Navratilova’s paranoia (and that’s what it is), simply shouldn’t be entertained IMO. The sport of tennis is bigger than just her opinion being the determining one in who does or doesn’t get to play in competitions in a sport they want to participate in. Had people said lesbians can’t play tennis or lesbians shouldn’t be allowed in the changing rooms because they’ll be eyeballing all the women (of course like, because that’s what every lesbian does, right?), Navratilova would have kicked up an almighty stink, and she did change the game for women back in the 70’s and 80’s, and now she’s in the position where she has the ability to have a positive influence on the game, and she decides to say “those people can’t play with us”. Talk about pulling the ladder up after yourself!

I’m not denying there are of course plenty of male players who are able to compete at a higher level than female players, the rules are completely different for both male and female players, but the rules can be changed to make the playing field fairer to all competitors if fairness is the intent of excluding people from playing in competitions. The rules are changed all the time to make the game fairer to all competitors, so this isn’t any sort of a revolutionary suggestion. It’s the same as the point I made earlier when some people complained about black people participating in sports that they have biological advantages over white people - they do, and that hasn’t stopped white people competing, any more than the inclusion of people who are transgender in sports would prevent women (or indeed men) from competing. People who aren’t transgender will still dominate competitions simply because there’s more of them, and there’s more to competing and winning in sports than just biology. As I always understood sports anyway they were about pushing the human body beyond it’s limits. That’s what made elite sportspeople who they are, it’s why Sonia O’ Sullivan could lap me easily twice and three times over without so much as breaking a sweatd.

That’s all well and good but sport at a high level is also for spectators, if people are angered because the New Zealand weightlifter who failed at the sport whilst male transitioned well into their 30’s is kicking the crap out of the competition who have trained as hard as Biles then it is no longer sport or competition it’s a mockery of the sport. I laughed when I saw the pictures of the AFL player smashing opponents half her size it wasn’t sport it was so absurd the gap in the physical presence on the field so wide it was hilarious. A non-binary friend said to me that people are only annoyed because these trans athletes are winning. Let’s just repeat that except slower. I welcome the results of the studies but I’m surprised at how long it’s taken the medical sports scientists to respond.

cj maxx

silverharp wrote: »

its a development, just not a positive one. Its telling that trans "male" athletes will probably never feature in any serious competitions.

Neither should they .

suicide_circus

Wibbs wrote: »

Y'know what? bugger this bloody nonsense. Frankly I've had enough at this stage and I give precisely .00001 % of fcuks in saying it any more, or whomever this apparently "offends". :rolleyes:

That's a man. Same for the cyclist referenced earlier in the thread. Same for the Chinese competitor referenced recently. Same for the Australian weightlifter. Same for the MMA fighter. The list is depressingly long enough, but it shouldn't get any bloody longer.

If you want to self identify as male/female/two spirit/whatever, go right ahead and with my best wishes for whatever contentment you find, like the rest of us, but when the rubber meets the road in something like sports and access to spaces for vulnerable women like shelters and also apparently have some clearly dangerous looper who wants his balls and cock waxed as a "woman" and talk about menstruation with children and gets some leverage legally and in the "minds" of some on the twittersphere on that position? Get the ever living fcuk out of it, you bloody morons.

It's time to fight back against this assault on reality, actual science and medical fact and yes actual common sense. If that makes me "transphobic" work away and ban me. Enough is enough FFS.

“I can’t believe that!” said Alice.

“Can’t you?” the queen said in a pitying tone. “Try again, draw a long breath, and shut your eyes.”

Alice laughed. “There’s no use trying,” she said. “One can’t believe impossible things.”

“I dare say you haven’t had much practice,” said the queen

from Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll

AllForIt

I'm not going to quote the unnecessarily wordy post.

Navratilova is not trying to stop transgender people participating in professional sport.

No professional sports person can pick and choose which categorythey want to participate in.

If transgender women take hormones such that they are at a disadvantage competing against cis men then that is a situation that has come about by their own actions, not anyone else's, so they have to accept the consequences IMO, not expect everyone else to bend to suit them. And if they so choose to participate in the cis mens category they are still participating, noone would object. But they more than likely wouldn't win ! That to me is what they are really after - the right to win.

Roger Hassenforder

Any transmen doing well in Mens sports?

One eyed Jack

cloudatlas wrote: »

That’s all well and good but sport at a high level is also for spectators, if people are angered because the New Zealand weightlifter who failed at the sport whilst male transitioned well into their 30’s is kicking the crap out of the competition who have trained as hard as Biles then it is no longer sport or competition it’s a mockery of the sport. I laughed when I saw the pictures of the AFL player smashing opponents half her size it wasn’t sport it was so absurd the gap in the physical presence on the field so wide it was hilarious. A non-binary friend said to me that people are only annoyed because these trans athletes are winning. Let’s just repeat that except slower. I welcome the results of the studies but I’m surprised at how long it’s taken the medical sports scientists to respond.

Yeah speaking of New Zealand you reminded me of Jonah Lomu who took out half the England team in the ‘95 World Cup, an absolute beast who had pace, power, skill and strength, but none of that would have made any difference if he didn’t also have the brains to be able to compete at an elite level in his chosen sport. The world laughed when he took out half the England team, and scratched their heads when he was taken down by Peter Stringer, who if you aren’t familiar with rugby is only 5’7” and 15 stone, against Jonah Lomu who was 6”7 and 18 stone! Sports as I said previously isn’t just about biological advantages or disadvantages, there’s a hell of a lot more involved in being an elite athlete in any sport than just being the biggest or the fastest or the most agile or aggressive. Plenty of it involves making tactical decisions on the fly while someone the size of Jonah Lomu is either coming at you or trying to get away from you.

There will always be athletes who look like they’re making a mockery of the sport, but that shouldn’t mean that all players who share those traits (or indeed don’t), should be excluded from participating competitive sports. It’s the outliers we refer to as elites who make the sports interesting to watch for spectators, and it gives young people something to aspire to. It won’t happen today, but over time, generations from now, just like the way it happened for Navratilova when she was given the opportunity to defect to the US where she became a household name. That would have been unlikely if people had cried foul when she wanted to defect from her home country. The US were only too happy to take her in and welcome her as one of their own.

EDIT: I just looked up Will Carling’s comment about Jonah Lomu after the game in ‘95 -


Carling himself set the tone as he was interviewed in the immediate aftermath of the final whistle. Looking somewhat dazed, he smiled a little ruefully and said, "I am hoping not to come across him again. He's a freak - and the sooner he goes away the better."


https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/i-am-hoping-not-to-come-across-him-again-hes-a-freak-and-the-sooner-he-goes-away-the-better-1587270.html

dodderangler

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Any transmen doing well in Mens sports?

Haha. Not a fùckin hope.

Potential-Monke

It's ok, the governing bodies who make money from these sports will change it when they see the drop off in attendance or interest due to unfair biological advantages.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

I don’t think Jonah Lomu would have been stopped by a female version of peter stringer all the same if he self identified.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Potential-Monke wrote: »

It's ok, the governing bodies who make money from these sports will change it when they see the drop off in attendance or interest due to unfair biological advantages.

It’s depends on the laws in different countries.

jmayo

I have fooking heard it all now.

Jonah Lomu is now dragged in as an excuse for a bloke, yes that's basically what some of these still are physically, to compete against women, who have been born, reared and matured as females.

There is one poster here who is trying to twist the facts to suit an agenda which basically allows guys compete in womens sport.

And to put it most sucintly if not somewhat crudely, someone is still a guy in sporting physical terms if they were born a guy, grew up as a guy and most especially are still walking around with a cock and two balls.

One eyed Jack

Potential-Monke wrote: »

It's ok, the governing bodies who make money from these sports will change it when they see the drop off in attendance or interest due to unfair biological advantages.

More than made up for by the interest and attendance figures which the elites and the freaks in any sport attracts. If what you’re suggesting were true, then why was the Women’s World Cup in spite of it’s constant promotion in the media not attracting the same viewership as the Men’s World Cup does? Or why are the Paralympics not as popular as the Olympics?

They’re not as popular simply because audiences generally don’t give a shìte about social justice, they want to be entertained. The media have been aware of this phenomenon since PT Barnums travelling freak shows and all they care about is what’s going to make them money.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

It’s worth parsing some of this.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Here’s the thing as far as I’m concerned - sports, and the rules governing sports, and the governing bodies of these sports, have changed and evolved throughout their history.

Sports has changed its rules before. It’s a logical fallacy to assume that all changes, past or future, are good or will be good.

At the same time, there were always people who demanded that the rules should stay the same. It was no small coincidence that the people who demanded the rules stay the same were the people who stood to lose the most from the rules being changed.

There are always discussions on rule changes yes, and in fact sometimes the rules don’t change because of this discussion. This “no small coincidence” isn’t proven at all, maybe people who opposed rule changes were motivated by loss of status or maybe some people just didn’t like the new rules. Citation needed.

I’m reminded of a time when there were complaints about black athletes competing in sports because they had biological advantages over white athletes, particularly in boxing and athletics. Black people dominate both boxing and athletics today and white boxers and athletes are still competing in the sports.

The comparison here between race (biologically dubious as a category) and sex (biologically very real) is fairly dubious. It’s odd that OEJ says she doesn’t like McKinnon as this is, verbatim, the argument that McKinnon uses. You have to accept the axiom that trans women are women to begin with, to accept this logic.

Even if we did take physical sports like rugby or boxing - have the rules not changed to make the sports safer?

The rules have indeed changed to make the sports safer, unlike the rules on allowing transwomen or men to compete which clearly make rugby obviously less safe.

Yes, people still get injured and sometimes their injuries are life-threatening or in some tragic circumstances their lives are ended, but that has never meant we bar those people from participating in the sport or we call a halt to the sport itself.

We do however “change the rules to make the sport safer”, until now. It’s not much of an argument to say “it was always dangerous” to justify exponentially increasing the danger.

We can change the bloody rules so that men and women can compete in the same sports or compete in their chosen categories in those sports, and still there will always be winners and sore losers.

We are to infer here that the losers will be biological women. Given OEJ is a self declared feminist this is an extraordinary statement, I can imagine a parallel universe where men’s rights advocates were demanding closing down or de-categorising women’s sports , one where OEJ would have the exact opposite opinion.

In this case ironically if we allow the losers to dictate the rules, then we may as well start handing out participation medals so that everyone gets to feel like a winner and everyone is equal. Kinda takes the whole competitive element out of the sport.

This isn’t even ironic in the Allanis Morrisette definition of unfortunate. I mean losers (biological women) are obviously going to complain if they can no longer compete at elite level ands there’s no irony.

One eyed Jack

jmayo wrote: »

I have fooking heard it all now.

Jonah Lomu is now dragged in as an excuse for a bloke, yes that's basically what some of these still are physically, to compete against women, who have been born, reared and matured as females.

There is one poster here who is trying to twist the facts to suit an agenda which basically allows guys compete in womens sport.

And to put it most sucintly if not somewhat crudely, someone is still a guy in sporting physical terms if they were born a guy, grew up as a guy and most especially are still walking around with a cock and two balls.

No, if anyone’s attempting to twist facts here, you’re taking the example I gave of Jonah Lomu completely out of context.

The facts are that governing bodies in sports will determine who can and cannot compete in competitions, it’s not the athletes themselves who get to decide who can or cannot compete in competitions. If an athlete doesn’t want to compete, that’s fine, but trying to prevent other athletes from competing who are entitled to compete and qualify to compete, and thinking that they have the authority to prevent other athletes from competing against them, is a distortion of reality.

Put it in whatever crude terms you feel you need to in order to make your point. Your point has been made numerous times already, and the IOC for one governing body at least, simply disagree with your perspective, which is good news for athletes like Chris Mosier -


The Trans Athlete Behind the Olympic Committee’s New Gender Policy

suicide_circus

One eyed Jack wrote: »

More than made up for by the interest and attendance figures which the elites and the freaks in any sport attracts. If what you’re suggesting were true, then why was the Women’s World Cup in spite of it’s constant promotion in the media not attracting the same viewership as the Men’s World Cup does? Or why are the Paralympics not as popular as the Olympics?

They’re not as popular simply because audiences generally don’t give a sh about social justice, they want to be entertained. The media have been aware of this phenomenon since PT Barnums travelling freak shows and all they care about is what’s going to make them money.

do you think the practice of separating the sexes in sports is valid?

One eyed Jack

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

The comparison here between race (biologically dubious as a category) and sex (biologically very real) is fairly dubious. It’s odd that OEJ says she doesn’t like McKinnon as this is, verbatim, the argument that McKinnon uses. You have to accept the axiom that trans women are women to begin with, to accept this logic.

...

We are to infer here that the losers will be biological women. Given OEJ is a self declared feminist this is an extraordinary statement, I can imagine a parallel universe where men’s rights advocates were demanding closing down or de-categorising women’s sports , one where OEJ would have the exact opposite opinion.

This isn’t even ironic in the Allanis Morrisette definition of unfortunate. I mean losers (biological women) are obviously going to complain if they can no longer compete at elite level ands there’s no irony.

Franz I’ve no hassle with you assuming I’m a woman, but when did I ever declare I’m a feminist? That’s below the belt that is! :pac:

One eyed Jack

suicide_circus wrote: »

do you think the practice of separating the sexes in sports is valid?

No, frankly, I think it’s ridiculous. Separation of the sexes in sports is one of the reasons why women have been held back IMO in sports, especially at elite level where there is no reason other than the barrier of low expectations as to why they cannot compete against men. If women aren’t expected to perform as well as men, or men aren’t expected to perform as well as women, chances are they won’t, because they won’t be driven to push themselves to get to the elite levels in their chosen sport, regardless of their gender. Who really praises or even acknowledges athletes who drop down to levels they can comfortably compete at? Very few people, social justice types who are all about participation medals and everyone’s a winner and we’re all equal. That’s about as exciting to watch as bowls.

Dante7

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, frankly, I think it’s ridiculous. Separation of the sexes in sports is one of the reasons why women have been held back IMO in sports, especially at elite level where there is no reason other than the barrier of low expectations as to why they cannot compete against men. If women aren’t expected to perform as well as men, or men aren’t expected to perform as well as women, chances are they won’t, because they won’t be driven to push themselves to get to the elite levels in their chosen sport, regardless of their gender. Who really praises or even acknowledges athletes who drop down to levels they can comfortably compete at? Very few people, social justice types who are all about participation medals and everyone’s a winner and we’re all equal. That’s about as exciting to watch as bowls.

FFS. You'd get more sense talking to the cat.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Franz I’ve no hassle with you assuming I’m a woman, but when did I ever declare I’m a feminist? That’s below the belt that is! :pac:

You are what then?