Biological males in women's sport

ceadaoin.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Very simply because that’s been my experience throughout my life that the men I’ve known have been just as capable as women, and vice versa, the women I’ve known have been just as capable as men. I think the way sports are structured for adult competitions could be tweaked to make competitions fairer. I don’t imagine it would be as easy as me simply saying it because frankly there’s a lot of money tied to sponsorships and so on, but I’m simply suggesting that the sports themselves could be tweaked to allow for both sexes to compete on an equal footing.

Look, even the IOC acknowledge that biology is everything when it comes to females who identify as men competing in mens competitions- they can do so unrestricted. meaning they are allowed to supplement with testosterone and will still not have an unfair advantage. So if females doping with testosterone up to male levels still doesn't level the playing field when competing against males then what will? Mind power?

One eyed Jack

ingalway wrote: »

Mixed events are fine when it is indeed mixed. If a relay team is supposed to be 2 females and 2 males on all competing teams then that is fair but when a team puts out 2 biological males and 2 trans females under the guise of competing under their chosen identity rather than the one "assigned" at birth it is completely wrong and this is where this is open to abuse. I'd say the IOC see this as a soft option to their gender problem. It will be another disaster.

I get what you’re saying and I agree with you, the potential for abuse is there, the potential for people who are of a mind to want to abuse any system is always there, but the way I think of it is that it’s the people who are abusing the system should be targeted as opposed to assuming a whole section of society are inherently abusive or want to abuse any given system, or use the system to their advantage to abuse other people, like this case for instance -


USA Gymnastics sex abuse scandal


I’m not going to assume that by virtue of their being transgender that a person is any more likely than anyone else to want to commit abuse or wants to abuse any given system. An opportunistic prick is an opportunistic prick regardless of their sex or gender.

ingalway

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Look, even the IOC acknowledge that biology is everything when it comes to females who identify as men competing in mens competitions- they can do so unrestricted. meaning they are allowed to supplement with testosterone and will still not have an unfair advantage. So if females doping with testosterone up to male levels still doesn't level the playing field when competing against males then what will? Mind power?

OEJ has already explained that women just need to try harder, so I guess that applies to trans men. It's really very simple!

One eyed Jack

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Look, even the IOC acknowledge that biology is everything when it comes to females who identify as men competing in mens competitions- they can do so unrestricted. meaning they are allowed to supplement with testosterone and will still not have an unfair advantage. So if females doping with testosterone up to male levels still doesn't level the playing field when competing against males then what will? Mind power?

Restrictions on the levels of testosterone in athletes is already in place for men who want to compete against women. I’m not suggesting it’s a bulletproof solution, but another suggestion is mixed events team sports. There will undoubtedly be issues with that too, but I just don’t know are any sports governing bodies prepared to do away with individual events altogether. For now they appear to be putting in place measures which they think are fair to everyone, and we’ll just have to see how that plays out.

astrofool

There is nothing to stop a female from competing in the men's category (really the "anyone can compete" category), other than the fact that they would rarely qualify for it at the Olympic level events, the restriction on the female events is purely to ensure that women can compete on a level playing field (similar to the weight categories).

Of course, if you're not bothered with a level playing field, than this is the sport for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2F4hPDhk9I

Of course, OEJ would imply that the man should be trying harder

Paddy Cow

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Restrictions on the levels of testosterone in athletes is already in place for men who want to compete against women. I’m not suggesting it’s a bulletproof solution, but another suggestion is mixed events team sports. There will undoubtedly be issues with that too, but I just don’t know are any sports governing bodies prepared to do away with individual events altogether. For now they appear to be putting in place measures which they think are fair to everyone, and we’ll just have to see how that plays out.

We're already seeing how that plays out. Biological males who compete in women's sports are beating them hands down.

Take laws and rules out of the equation. You have said that you think that women should compete against men and it's actually a good thing because you believe it will motivate women to do better. Everyone has said the opposite. Apart from you, no one thinks that a woman at her physical peak is a match for a man at his physical peak, purely based on the biological fact that men are naturally stronger and faster than women.

After pages and pages of this I still don't have any idea of what your real opinion is. My opinion is crystal clear and I know what other posters think. You are behaving like a politician in that you skirt around things, give vague answers and are very good at deflecting etc.

So I'm going to ask a straight question. And while you don't have to, I would appreciate a straight answer. Do you personally think that it's ok for biological males to compete in female sports? I'm not asking about trans because the rules changed and you don't have to have undergone surgery to compete so we literally have the situation where men are competing against women.

In your personal opinion, is this fair to you and if so, why?

One eyed Jack

Paddy Cow wrote: »

In your personal opinion, is this fair to you and if so, why?

Yes. There’s your straight answer.

I’ve already given numerous reasons why I think it’s fair to everyone who wants to compete in sports, and they’ve simply been dismissed, which is fair enough as I can understand it’s not a popular opinion round these parts to suggest that fairness doesn’t just apply to one group or another, but to everyone.

ingalway

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I get what you’re saying and I agree with you, the potential for abuse is there, the potential for people who are of a mind to want to abuse any system is always there, but the way I think of it is that it’s the people who are abusing the system should be targeted as opposed to assuming a whole section of society are inherently abusive or want to abuse any given system, or use the system to their advantage to abuse other people, like this case for instance -


USA Gymnastics sex abuse scandal


I’m not going to assume that by virtue of their being transgender that a person is any more likely than anyone else to want to commit abuse or wants to abuse any given system. An opportunistic prick is an opportunistic prick regardless of their sex or gender.

I guess you must have missed this one:
https://twitter.com/KCTransforms/sta...134545409?s=19

ceadaoin.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Yes. There’s your straight answer.

I’ve already given numerous reasons why I think it’s fair to everyone who wants to compete in sports, and they’ve simply been dismissed, which is fair enough as I can understand it’s not a popular opinion round these parts to suggest that fairness doesn’t just apply to one group or another, but to everyone.

With your stance of eliminating categories based on sex, "fairness for everyone" only applies to men, as they are the only ones who will benefit. It's completely unfair to women who have fought long and hard to be able to compete and succeed at the elite level with other women. But yeah sure I suppose if they want equality they can have it right? Isn't that what misogynists say when they want to see women put back in their place? Hmm

One eyed Jack

ingalway wrote: »

I guess you must have missed this one:
https://twitter.com/KCTransforms/sta...134545409?s=19

I did miss it. I’m not sure what you expect me to think other than if I went trawling the web for shìtty behaviour and attitudes among any particular group in society, it wouldn’t take me all that long before I could amass a couple of dossiers on some really shìtty individuals. All that thread shows is that being an opportunistic prick isn’t based upon either sex or gender, as I had already said. Do I really need to actually go and demonstrate the point by hitting google and looking for terms like violence perpetrated by women, violence perpetrated by men, violence perpetrated by <insert whatever demographic you like here> ?

Because that’s essentially all that’s going on there, and not for a minute do I believe that person is capable of reason, so this in their bio -

Liberal. Supporting the human condition. Grown-ups can respect each other, even while disagreeing on particular issues. That’s how politics work.

Load of shìte, but good enough reason to avoid twitter all the same.

ingalway

ceadaoin. wrote: »

With your stance of eliminating categories based on sex, "fairness for everyone" only applies to men, as they are the only ones who will benefit. It's completely unfair to women who have fought long and hard to be able to compete and succeed at the elite level with other women. But yeah sure I suppose if they want equality they can have it right? Isn't that what misogynists say when they want to see women put back in their place? Hmm

OEJ: The Misogynist word again...starting to see the pattern or is it a badge of honour?

One eyed Jack

ceadaoin. wrote: »

With your stance of eliminating categories based on sex, "fairness for everyone" only applies to men, as they are the only ones who will benefit. It's completely unfair to women who have fought long and hard to be able to compete and succeed at the elite level with other women. But yeah sure I suppose if they want equality they can have it right? Isn't that what misogynists say when they want to see women put back in their place? Hmm

Maybe it’s our different understanding of fairness, but when I suggest eliminating categorisation based upon sex, the idea isn’t to give men an advantage over women, because obviously that isn’t being fair to everyone. I don’t know how many times I’ve said it on this site but I’ve never been interested in gender equality, I’ve always been more about fairness, you’re going down the wrong track there, but yeah I do agree with you that is what some men say when they want to rub women’s noses in it (I can think of plenty of examples in a couple of threads), but that’s not and has never been my intent. I get that it isn’t fair to women who have always competed against other women, there’s probably going to be plenty of men too who aren’t happy about the idea, and there are plenty of people who are transgender who aren’t happy about the idea either. That’s why I’m suggesting the idea is to try and be fair to everyone and make sports more accessible to everyone.

I’m almost certain the same type of arguments against the idea of women entering the labour market were made at the time that it was unfair on men because it would displace men from their jobs and mean less opportunities for men. That same sort of rhetoric still goes on today, and society hasn’t managed to come apart at the seams yet in spite of women’s participation in the labour market. Basically you’re viewing women’s participation in sports as it is today, without thinking that the changes made today could have a positive influence on society as a whole in the future.

One eyed Jack

ingalway wrote: »

OEJ: The Misogynist word again...starting to see the pattern or is it a badge of honour?

I think you’re of the impression I’m supposed to care for being labelled whatever on the basis of my opinion. Bit long in the tooth for kowtowing to that sort of behaviour.

Calina

OEJ, can you please differentiate between gender categorisation and sex based categorisation. They are not the same thing but your screeds appear to confuse them.

One eyed Jack

Calina wrote: »

OEJ, can you please differentiate between gender categorisation and sex based categorisation. They are not the same thing but your screeds appear to confuse them.

Whichever categorisation a sports governing body uses I suppose. I mean, personally I differentiate based upon sex, male and female, and I couldn’t care less about the idea of there being a whole infinite amount of gender identities. If someone wants to identify themselves as whatever gender, I can work with that easily enough, things get a bit sketchy when I’m expected to accept a person as the sex they identify as when I know bloody well they aren’t the sex they claim to be.

If you’re confused by that, I’m not sure what you’re going to make of S.18 of the Gender Recognition Act 2015


18. (1) Where a gender recognition certificate is issued to a person the person’s gender shall from the date of that issue become for all purposes the preferred gender so that if the preferred gender is the male gender the person’s sex becomes that of a man, and if it is the female gender the person’s sex becomes that of a woman.

GreeBo

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That’s something men simply won’t be able to do, solely by virtue of their biology, and no amount of hormones taken in later life will ever give them that ability.

There shouldn’t be anything to stop them of course if that’s what they want to try and do, even if they are regarded as delusional.

Erm isn't this missing the rather obvious point that of course men can be as good as that gymnast... all they have to do is train really hard, have good genetics... oh and be born a woman who later identifies as a man?

Interesting choice of words by the way... delusional. Very apt.

silverharp

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Maybe it’s our different understanding of fairness, but when I suggest eliminating categorisation based upon sex, the idea isn’t to give men an advantage over women, because obviously that isn’t being fair to everyone. I don’t know how many times I’ve said it on this site but I’ve never been interested in gender equality, I’ve always been more about fairness, you’re going down the wrong track there, but yeah I do agree with you that is what some men say when they want to rub women’s noses in it (I can think of plenty of examples in a couple of threads), but that’s not and has never been my intent. I get that it isn’t fair to women who have always competed against other women, there’s probably going to be plenty of men too who aren’t happy about the idea, and there are plenty of people who are transgender who aren’t happy about the idea either. That’s why I’m suggesting the idea is to try and be fair to everyone and make sports more accessible to everyone.

I’m almost certain the same type of arguments against the idea of women entering the labour market were made at the time that it was unfair on men because it would displace men from their jobs and mean less opportunities for men. That same sort of rhetoric still goes on today, and society hasn’t managed to come apart at the seams yet in spite of women’s participation in the labour market. Basically you’re viewing women’s participation in sports as it is today, without thinking that the changes made today could have a positive influence on society as a whole in the future.

i dont think your labour analogy works, its more about changing definitions. women didnt enter the workforce pretending to be men, plus there is only one labour market. All i can see if that there should be trans competitions and they have their own categories.

One eyed Jack

GreeBo wrote: »

Erm isn't this missing the rather obvious point that of course men can be as good as that gymnast... all they have to do is train really hard, have good genetics... oh and be born a woman who later identifies as a man?

Interesting choice of words by the way... delusional. Very apt.

Biological women will have the advantage of oestrogen hormone which increases flexibility, whereas biological men will have testosterone which builds muscle which reduces their flexibility. There are also different events and different scoring systems between men’s and women’s gymnastics.

One eyed Jack

silverharp wrote: »

i dont think your labour analogy works, its more about changing definitions. women didnt enter the workforce pretending to be men, plus there is only one labour market. All i can see if that there should be trans competitions and they have their own categories.

The analogy was in relation to the idea of people arguing at the time that women’s participation in the labour market would not only take jobs from men but reduce the opportunities for men. It’s not all that different to people arguing that participation in sports of people who are transgender means that they’ll take all the medals from women and reduce women’s opportunities in sports. Women and men have been participating in the workforce for some time now and there hasn’t been any major overtaking of men by women. On that basis I just don’t foresee any major overtaking of women in sports by people who are transgender either.

silverharp

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The analogy was in relation to the idea of people arguing at the time that women’s participation in the labour market would not only take jobs from men but reduce the opportunities for men. It’s not all that different to people arguing that participation in sports of people who are transgender means that they’ll take all the medals from women and reduce women’s opportunities in sports. Women and men have been participating in the workforce for some time now and there hasn’t been any major overtaking of men by women. On that basis I just don’t foresee any major overtaking of women in sports by people who are transgender either.

i dont agree with your conclusion, the only reason trans women wont overtake women in sports is down to numbers, but in principle they would because they bring their male biology with them. if some adults started identifying as children you wouldnt let them compete with children? i wouldnt want to see a 6"3 30 year old dude with a beard playing on a team against my son's rugby JCT team. why is the current situation any less ridiculous?

One eyed Jack

silverharp wrote: »

i dont agree with your conclusion, the only reason trans women wont overtake women in sports is down to numbers, but in principle they would because they bring their male biology with them. if some adults started identifying as children you wouldnt let them compete with children? i wouldnt want to see a 6"3 30 year old dude with a beard playing on a team against my son's rugby JCT team. why is the current situation any less ridiculous?

Because they’re two completely different situations. There are no age discrimination laws for example that suggest a 30 year old is being discriminated against because they don’t qualify for juvenile sports.

There are laws relating to discrimination on the basis of gender which make it unlawful for sports governing bodies to say transgender athletes who have been recognised in law as their preferred gender are not permitted to compete against other athletes of the same gender (or sex, if you want to go that way).

Potential-Monke

So the law is wrong then.

ceadaoin.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The analogy was in relation to the idea of people arguing at the time that women’s participation in the labour market would not only take jobs from men but reduce the opportunities for men. It’s not all that different to people arguing that participation in sports of people who are transgender means that they’ll take all the medals from women and reduce women’s opportunities in sports. Women and men have been participating in the workforce for some time now and there hasn’t been any major overtaking of men by women. On that basis I just don’t foresee any major overtaking of women in sports by people who are transgender either.

With self ID, how do we distinguish between someone who is transgender and someone who wants to cheat their way into winning?

Sir Oxman

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

T

I’m putting you on ignore now because the lack of logic coupled with the verbal diarrhoea is tiresome.

Unfortunately, I have to do the same - it's painful reading his/her wall of garbage every third or so post.
Only my second ignore ever too.

silverharp

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Because they’re two completely different situations. There are no age discrimination laws for example that suggest a 30 year old is being discriminated against because they don’t qualify for juvenile sports.

There are laws relating to discrimination on the basis of gender which make it unlawful for sports governing bodies to say transgender athletes who have been recognised in law as their preferred gender are not permitted to compete against other athletes of the same gender (or sex, if you want to go that way).

in some countries now you just have to tell the state you want to identify as the other gender and its job done, no evidence or requirement to do anything. to meet your requirements any restrictions currently in place must be wrong?

One eyed Jack

Potential-Monke wrote: »

So the law is wrong then.

Essentially, yes, if you’re coming at it from the point of view that prohibiting biological males from competing against biological females in sports shouldn’t be considered discriminatory in law.

I’m no fan of the gender recognition act in it’s current form btw, just to be absolutely clear on that much, but the idea behind it is again to be fair to everyone in Irish society, not just favouring one group over another or riding roughshod over the rights of one group. It’s about legal recognition of the rights of one group where previously there was no legal recognition of their rights.

GreeBo

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Biological women will have the advantage of oestrogen hormone which increases flexibility, whereas biological men will have testosterone which builds muscle which reduces their flexibility. There are also different events and different scoring systems between men’s and women’s gymnastics.

Indeed, but you just identify as whatever gender you are best at.. your actual gender is apparently irrelevant these days.

cloudatlas

It's already a farce but lets hope Sarah Robles beats Hubbard this month.

One eyed Jack

silverharp wrote: »

in some countries now you just have to tell the state you want to identify as the other gender and its job done, no evidence or requirement to do anything. to meet your requirements any restrictions currently in place must be wrong?

I’m guessing you think it’s wrong that people should be able to identify themselves as their preferred gender without any other evidence other than simply the fact that they want to. The issues don’t arise there though, they arise based upon what an individual decides to do once their new identity has been recognised in law. The law doesn’t exist to permit people to abuse it, and it certainly doesn’t give them a get out of jail free card to commit wrongdoing against another person. There are still laws governing that sort of behaviour which apply to everyone in society.

cloudatlas

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m guessing you think it’s wrong that people should be able to identify themselves as their preferred gender without any other evidence other than simply the fact that they want to. The issues don’t arise there though, they arise based upon what an individual decides to do once their new identity has been recognised in law. The law doesn’t exist to permit people to abuse it, and it certainly doesn’t give them a get out of jail free card to commit wrongdoing against another person. There are still laws governing that sort of behaviour which apply to everyone in society.

Yeah we know they have to keep their testosterone below a certain limit to compete. the most "fair" result would be the creation of a transgeneder category, I think that would probably go against what transpeople are actually looking for, which is to be seen as their new identified gender. However, saying that there is no potential performance benefit for a woman who was born, grew up, and spent all their development period as a biological male, is a bit of a stretch I think.