Biological males in women's sport

Paddy Cow

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

And let us never forget what happened to a female gymnast who was pressured to do a move that should only be attempted by men - Elena Mukhina. She got a snapped spine for her trouble.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

It wasn’t just the injury. She had already realised that the new skill they wanted her to learn was very risky even before the injury. It was a combination of the two really, I think. But maybe it’s also risky for guys.

I only became aware of her story last week on 9gag of all places. The move her coaches were pushing her to do was called the Thomas Salto, which up until then was only something that men did. It was extremely tricky and if the person didn't get it right, they could land on their chin, which would break their spine. She badly broke her leg and wasn't given the time to heal. They took her cast off and forced her to do the Thomas Salto. She landed on her chin and ended up paralysed from the neck down.

It was an unforgiveable price to pay for people who thought that women could compete at men's level. The Thomas Salto was subsequently banned as something women could do but the damage was already done. Imagine going from one of the most flexible people on the planet to one of the most immobile, just because the people around you wanted to prove an unproveable point.

Women are not able to compete against men. That is just biology. Men are naturally stronger and faster but that doesn't mean that women are lesser human beings overall. I don't know why people can't understand and accept this.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I only became aware of her story last week on 9gag of all places. The move her coaches were pushing her to do was called the Thomas Salto, which up until then was only something that men did. It was extremely tricky and if the person didn't get it right, they could land on their chin, which would break their spine. She badly broke her leg and wasn't given the time to heal. They took her cast off and forced her to do the Thomas Salto. She landed on her chin and ended up paralysed from the neck down.

It was an unforgiveable price to pay for people who thought that women could compete at men's level. The Thomas Salto was subsequently banned as something women could do but the damage was already done. Imagine going from one of the most flexible people on the planet to one of the most immobile, just because the people around you wanted to prove an unproveable point.

Women are not able to compete against men. That is just biology. Men are naturally stronger and faster but that doesn't mean that women are lesser human beings overall. I don't know why people can't understand and accept this.

I know. So cruel.

One eyed Jack

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Women are not able to compete against men. That is just biology. Men are naturally stronger and faster but that doesn't mean that women are lesser human beings overall. I don't know why people can't understand and accept this.

What do you suggest then PC for women like Caster Semenya? Her natural biological advantages offer her an opportunity to become an elite athlete in her sport. She is exceptional, but elite athletes are exceptional anyway or they wouldn’t be where they are, and simply cannot be compared to average biological men or women in terms of an average persons athletic ability.

Sporting bodies were performing sex tests on women long before they changed the rules to allow for biologically male athletes to compete against women. It’s since been recognised as a humiliating indignity with awful consequences for the women whose sex is questioned, and that’s why the rules have been changed. I don’t think it’s right or fair on any anyone to be subjected to that sort of scrutiny when they win, whereas there wouldn’t be a word about them if they didn’t come to prominence. I think we’re likely to see more athletes like Caster competing, quite simply because they have the biological advantages that offer them opportunities which they are going to make the most of, in spite of the possibility of being subjected to what I would consider at least to be dehumanising and humiliating abuse. Denying her the opportunity to show the world what she can do would be unfair on her and women like her as far as I’m concerned tbh.

ceadaoin.

Caster Semenya has xy chromosomes and no female reproductive organs. In other words , the "natural advantage" semenya has is being a male who is reaping the athletic benefits of going through a male puberty. Not a great example

One eyed Jack

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Caster Semenya has xy chromosomes and no female reproductive organs. In other words , the "natural advantage" semenya has is being a male who is reaping the athletic benefits of going through a male puberty. Not a great example

On the contrary, Caster is a perfect example as to why the rules were changed. I don’t think it’s fair on her or athletes like her to put them through what she has gone through to be able to compete in the sport. I get it of course, you disagree. Sporting bodies who govern the sport disagree with you. All that means is women like Caster will have to either put up with being publicly humiliated, or just not compete. You mentioned earlier about putting women back in their place, but it’s acceptable when you do it of course.

ceadaoin.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

On the contrary, Caster is a perfect example as to why the rules were changed. I don’t think it’s fair on her or athletes like her to put them through what she has gone through to be able to compete in the sport. I get it of course, you disagree. Sporting bodies who govern the sport disagree with you. All that means is women like Caster will have to either put up with being publicly humiliated, or just not compete. You mentioned earlier about putting women back in their place, but it’s acceptable when you do it of course.

Semenya is a male. End of.

The authorities are allowing her to compete, if she reduces the level of testosterone that her testes produce. The same as any other male athlete who wants to identify as a woman. I thought you agreed with those rules?

One eyed Jack

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Semenya is a male. End of.

The authorities are allowing her to compete, if she reduces the level of testosterone that her testes produce. The same as any other male athlete who wants to identify as a woman.

Because you say so? I’m not sure what authority you imagine you have to make that declaration. It’s certainly not the end by any means, that’s why I suggested we’ll see more athletes like Caster, because they have minds of their own and aren’t going to be put back in their place by anyone.

They are like anyone else entitled to exercise their human rights. They may not be human by your standards (by virtue of the fact that they don’t agree with your perspective, not because of what you might think of their biology), but that’s why human rights exist in the first place, to serve as an objective standard to protect the dignity and respect of all human beings, not just the human beings who agree with ceadaoin.

Paddy Cow

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What do you suggest then PC for women like Caster Semenya? Her natural biological advantages offer her an opportunity to become an elite athlete in her sport. She is exceptional, but elite athletes are exceptional anyway or they wouldn’t be where they are, and simply cannot be compared to average biological men or women in terms of an average persons athletic ability.

Sporting bodies were performing sex tests on women long before they changed the rules to allow for biologically male athletes to compete against women. It’s since been recognised as a humiliating indignity with awful consequences for the women whose sex is questioned, and that’s why the rules have been changed. I don’t think it’s right or fair on any anyone to be subjected to that sort of scrutiny when they win, whereas there wouldn’t be a word about them if they didn’t come to prominence. I think we’re likely to see more athletes like Caster competing, quite simply because they have the biological advantages that offer them opportunities which they are going to make the most of, in spite of the possibility of being subjected to what I would consider at least to be dehumanising and humiliating abuse. Denying her the opportunity to show the world what she can do would be unfair on her and women like her as far as I’m concerned tbh.

Are you seriously going to reply to a post which clearly demonstrated that a woman at the top of her game who for whatever reason ended up trying to compete with her male counterparts and paid the price of being quadriplegic, with someone who has a genetic disposition that makes her outside of the norm? We're not comparing like with like.

You can google all the female exceptions you want but it won't change facts. The average woman, even is she is a top athlete, will never be a challenge for her male counterpart. That is down to biology. It doesn't make women inferior or men superior overall but that is just how things are. You would have to be a special type of stupid to not be able to realise the difference in strength between the genders.

metaoblivia

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Just read about it, it was the pressure from Russian Authorities to become the winners across the board again. She broke her leg, was in a cast, doctors were pressured to remove it early so she could get back to training, against her wishes. When they removed it, she said something was wrong, they x rayed and saw it wasn't healed properly, and was put back in a cast. More pressure on the doctors then to remove it early again, which they did, and she was 'forced' back into training.

She knew it was dangerous, and could predict an accident, but they kept pressuring her. Then, shortly before the competition, she landed on her neck and was instantly a quadriplegic. Her first thought was "Thank god I don't have to go to the Olympics". Sad state of affairs.

She didn't blame all the trainers (only 1 I believe) as she knew they were also pressured from Russian authorities to get the win, and get her back onto the podium across all disciplines. She took some of the blame for not saying no, but I can understand the pressure she must have been under. Russia back then didn't care about personnel, just about image and winning. Hope it's not the same today.

I just watched the last ever female Thomas Salto move on YouTube, dangerous stuff.

Unfortunately that same attitude in USA gymnastics allowed Larry Nassar access to victims who turned to him for comfort for decades. And Japan had it's own scandal just last year when this video surfaced of one of their top gymnasts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrCVuwQT_p4

One area where I think gender does play a role in the sport is the age of the athletes. Men tend to peak in their early to mid 20s while women, for many years and sometimes now too, although not as often, peak in their early-mid teens. As a result, the girls start training & feel the pressure to succeed at much younger ages, when they're not as able to defend themselves from or recognize adult manipulation. And then they're also just physically so much smaller than their coaches from the most part. Would Sae's coach have handled a senior male gymnast the way he handles her in that video?

ceadaoin.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Because you say so? I’m not sure what authority you imagine you have to make that declaration. It’s certainly not the end by any means, that’s why I suggested we’ll see more athletes like Caster, because they have minds of their own and aren’t going to be put back in their place by anyone.

They are like anyone else entitled to exercise their human rights. They may not be human by your standards (by virtue of the fact that they don’t agree with your perspective, not because of what you might think of their biology), but that’s why human rights exist in the first place, to serve as an objective standard to protect the dignity and respect of all human beings, not just the human beings who agree with ceadaoin.

No, not because I say so, because science. I mean,xy chromosomes, testes, no uterus or ovaries. Still human, just a male one. That's not an opinion, it's a medical fact.

One eyed Jack

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Are you seriously going to reply to a post which clearly demonstrated that a woman at the top of her game who for whatever reason ended up trying to compete with her male counterparts and paid the price of being quadriplegic, with someone who has a genetic disposition that makes her outside of the norm? We're not comparing like with like.

No, I’m not, that’s why I cut it out of your post and asked you the question I did because it related to what you posted. I wasn’t trying to compare like for like, I was wondering what you would suggest for women like Caster is all.

Paddy Cow wrote: »

You can google all the female exceptions you want but it won't change facts. The average woman, even is she is a top athlete, will never be a challenge for her male counterpart. That is down to biology. It doesn't make women inferior or men superior overall but that is just how things are. You would have to be a special type of stupid to not be able to realise the difference in strength between the genders.

I’m not talking about the average woman or man though. I think the comparison is simply pointless. I’m not disputing the differences between the genders either. I guess what I’m suggesting is that facts are only facts so long as the evidence supports those facts. We now have evidence which calls those facts into question. Sporting bodies as just one example don’t have the luxury of being able to ignore evidence like individuals have every right to do. Hell I don’t mind admitting I’d often prefer to remain ignorant and not have to acknowledge evidence which contradicts what I had previously considered to be incontrovertible fact, but when I’m aware of the evidence, there’s no putting that back in Pandora’s box. I can’t pretend I’m not aware of something which causes me to question what I previously imagined was fact.

One eyed Jack

ceadaoin. wrote: »

No, not because I say so, because science. I mean,xy chromosomes, testes, no uterus or ovaries. Still human, just a male one. That's not an opinion, it's a medical fact.

And we all know of course science is static and never changes on the basis of new evidence which contradicts what was previously thought to be in incontrovertible fact.

ceadaoin.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

And we all know of course science is static and never changes on the basis of new evidence which contradicts what was previously thought to be in incontrovertible fact.

Still waiting for what defines male and female on a biological level to change but ok. Whatever you say.

Youd have to wonder how on earth has the human race survived and thrived at all given that male and female is so nebulous and changeable a concept that it's impossible to even visually identify a suitable partner to reproduce with. Oh wait, it isnt.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Semenya is a male. End of.

The authorities are allowing her to compete, if she reduces the level of testosterone that her testes produce. The same as any other male athlete who wants to identify as a woman. I thought you agreed with those rules?

I’m still confused about Semenya. She was raised as a woman all her life but everything points to her being born male. What was it about her at birth that prompted the decision her parents made? Are there intersex conditions where one can be XY?

I have sympathy for Semenya. She was raised as a woman. That’s all she knows.

ceadaoin.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I’m still confused about Semenya. She was raised as a woman all her life but everything points to her being born male. What was it about her at birth that prompted the decision her parents made? Are there intersex conditions where one can be XY?

I have sympathy for Semenya. She was raised as a woman. That’s all she knows.

According to the ruling semenya is 46 xy dsd and has internal testes.

46, XY disorder of sex development (DSD) is a condition in which an individual with one X chromosome and one Y chromosome in each cell , the pattern normally found in males, have genitalia that is not clearly male or female. ... People with with 46, XY DSD may be raised as males or females.

I do have sympathy for her, it's not her fault of course but I'm not sure if that means she should be competing against women who haven't had the benefits of a male puberty. If she is allowed to compete with unrestricted testosterone then it opens for the door for any biological male to do so, once they identify as a woman. It seems clear that that authorities dont want this to happen so they have to tread carefully I suppose.

One eyed Jack

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Still waiting for what defines male and female on a biological level to change but ok. Whatever you say.

Youd have to wonder how on earth has the human race survived and thrived at all given that male and female is so nebulous and changeable a concept that it's impossible to even visually identify a suitable partner to reproduce with. Oh wait, it isnt.

I don’t expect how male and female are defined on a biological level to change any time soon either to be fair, I think DSD will be regarded as biological anomalies in humans for a long time to come yet in the same way as it was previously thought that homosexuality was an anomaly in terms of human sexuality.

I’m scratching my head at that second paragraph as I don’t imagine with the best will in the world a visual inspection would have revealed that Caster doesn’t have a womb, which one would think would be a prerequisite to be able to reproduce, but I’m guessing you know something I don’t.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

ceadaoin. wrote: »

According to the ruling semenya is 46 xy dsd and has internal testes.



I do have sympathy for her, it's not her fault of course but I'm not sure if that means she should be competing against women who haven't had the benefits of a male puberty. If she is allowed to compete with unrestricted testosterone then it opens for the door for any biological male to do so, once they identify as a woman. It seems clear that that authorities dont want this to happen so they have to tread carefully I suppose.

Okay so, at birth because the testes couldn’t be observed due to being internal, they were unsure of the sex? It sounds like she did have clear genitalia but it just couldn’t be visually observed. Kinda getting it now. I think.

Paddy Cow

ceadaoin. wrote: »

According to the ruling semenya is 46 xy dsd and has internal testes.



I do have sympathy for her, it's not her fault of course but I'm not sure if that means she should be competing against women who haven't had the benefits of a male puberty. If she is allowed to compete with unrestricted testosterone then it opens for the door for any biological male to do so, once they identify as a woman. It seems clear that that authorities dont want this to happen so they have to tread carefully I suppose.

I thought that door was already opened in 2017 when they said that trans people no longer have to have undergone surgery and self-identification was enough, hence the very obvious case of the two Chinese "females".

Tokyo

Moved from AH > CA.

One eyed Jack

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I thought that door was already opened in 2017 when they said that trans people no longer have to have undergone surgery and self-identification was enough, hence the very obvious case of the two Chinese "females".

Bit more complicated than just not having to undergo surgery or having their gender legally recognised, the main sticking point is basically their levels of testosterone, which the IAAF acknowledges is higher in female athletes anyway than in the general female population -


(a) she must be recognised at law either as female or as intersex (or equivalent);

(b) she must reduce her blood testosterone level to below five (5) nmol/L for a continuous period of at least six months (e.g., by use of hormonal contraceptives); and

(c) thereafter she must maintain her blood testosterone level below five (5) nmol/L continuously (ie: whether she is in competition or out of competition) for so long as she wishes to remain eligible.

...

“We have seen in a decade and more of research that 7.1 in every 1000 elite female athletes in our sport have elevated testosterone levels, the majority are in the restricted events covered by these regulations. This is around 140 times what you will find in the general female population which demonstrates to us in statistical terms a recruitment bias. The treatment to reduce testosterone levels is a hormone supplement similar to the contraceptive pill taken by millions of women around the world. No athlete will be forced to undergo surgery. It is the athlete's responsibility, in close consultation with her medical team, to decide on her treatment.”


https://www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/eligibility-regulations-for-female-classifica


The problem is Caster doesn’t want to take hormone suppressants to lower her testosterone levels, and the World Medical Association are pointing out the obvious breach of medical ethics and human rights standards in the new rules -


Meanwhile the World Medical Association has reiterated its advice to physicians around the world not to take part in implementing the IAAF’s new eligibility regulations for classifying female athletes. The latest guidance follows a WMA council meeting last month where the doctors warned that compelling female DSD athletes to take hormone suppressants were contrary to international medical ethics and human rights standards.

The WMA president Dr Leonid Eidelman added: “We have strong reservations about the ethical validity of these regulations. They are based on weak evidence from a single study, which is currently being widely debated by the scientific community. They are also contrary to a number of key WMA ethical statements and declarations, and as such we are calling for their immediate withdrawal.”


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/may/02/caster-semenya-doha-sebastian-coe-iaaf-cas-ruling-athletics


EDIT: I read that back and I thought “they didn’t base their decision on just one study, that can’t be right”... apparently that’s exactly what they did -


But in a study released just this month, researchers at the University of Colorado Boulder (CU) found that the the regulations requiring certain female athletes to lower their tester one levels are based on “fatally flawed” data from a study published last year in the British Journal of Sports Medicine.

The paper, published this month in the International Sports Law Journal, asks for the original research to be binned.

“In almost any other setting of science, errors of this magnitude would lead to a paper being retracted,” said lead author Roger Pielke Jr., director of the Centre for Sports Governance at CU. “And it certainly would not be the basis for broad regulations that have a profound impact on people’s lives.”

“Any agency, in sport or beyond, should be expected to produce science that can withstand scrutiny and which actually supports the justification for proposed regulations. That simply did not happen here,” he told Science Daily.


https://thewire.in/sport/caster-semenyas-new-iaaf-rules-hormone-testing


This is the Colorado University study -


https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40318-019-00143-w


This is the BJSM study -


https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/17/1309#

ceadaoin.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Okay so, at birth because the testes couldn’t be observed due to being internal, they were unsure of the sex? It sounds like she did have clear genitalia but it just couldn’t be visually observed. Kinda getting it now. I think.

Bear in mind also that as well it being extremely obvious at puberty that something was amis, Semenya herself has known about this for the past 10 years at least and apparently identifies as a male outside of the sporting world. You'd have to wonder how much this was covered up in order to allow semenya to continue to win medals. But coaches would never do that would they?

I've seen today that Semenya has joined a womens soccer team now. Where she won't have to reduce testosterone.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Bear in mind also that as well it being extremely obvious at puberty that something was amis, Semenya herself has known about this for the past 10 years at least and apparently identifies as a male outside of the sporting world. You'd have to wonder how much this was covered up in order to allow semenya to continue to win medals. But coaches would never do that would they?

I've seen today that Semenya has joined a womens soccer team now. Where she won't have to reduce testosterone.

Aaaah, what? Is that true?

Paddy Cow

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Aaaah, what? Is that true?

Non binary is a thing now. People can identify as male on some days and female on others and woe betide the person who gets their pronouns wrong.

SoupMonster

Credit Suisse director, Philip/Pippa Bunce, makes it easy to guess the pronouns.
He wears a suit on man days and a dress on woman days.
Gendered clothes should be mandatory and womandatory.

Eric Cartman

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Non binary is a thing now. People can identify as male on some days and female on others and woe betide the person who gets their pronouns wrong.

When can we all admit that this is just as attention seeking and damaging as say scientology.

Paddy Cow

Eric Cartman wrote: »

When can we all admit that this is just as attention seeking and damaging as say scientology.

Ssshhhhh. You're not supposed to say things like that or the rabble rousers will accuse you of being phobic of something or order.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

At work I filled in captain/captain as my prefferred pronouns.

cloudatlas

ceadaoin. wrote: »

According to the ruling semenya is 46 xy dsd and has internal testes.



I do have sympathy for her, it's not her fault of course but I'm not sure if that means she should be competing against women who haven't had the benefits of a male puberty. If she is allowed to compete with unrestricted testosterone then it opens for the door for any biological male to do so, once they identify as a woman. It seems clear that that authorities dont want this to happen so they have to tread carefully I suppose.

This podcast covers the case and answers all questions, Semenya should be able to continue to compete. https://sigmanutrition.com/episode283/ Dr. Alun Williams 'SNR #283: Alun Williams, PhD – The Genetics & Science Behind the Historic Caster Semenya/IAAF Case'.

cloudatlas

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Semenya is a male. End of.

The authorities are allowing her to compete, if she reduces the level of testosterone that her testes produce. The same as any other male athlete who wants to identify as a woman. I thought you agreed with those rules?

Wrong. 'Critical points: There are some XY females and XX males. XY obviously usually is in males, but XY does not necessarily equal male. See WHO https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html
And XY chromosome testing in sport has a disastrous history https://www.nature.com/articles/gim2000258.pdf

The very same complex genetic reasons why some female athletes are in the DSD in the first place means they probably don’t have the ‘full advantage’ of the Y chromosome in relation to sport performance that men have.
‏
Biological sex (not gender identity) is determined by an array of genetic and other factors, of which X&Y chromosomes are important parts, but not the only ones, not even the only genetic ones. It’s complex. So biology can’t define exactly where 'female' ends and 'male' begins...

.. nor (if included) the female/DSD & DSD/male boundaries.

Biology provides a strong framework to define sex, but people (preferably well-informed) still have to decide the precise boundaries.

I think the IAAF have got the boundary wrong.' Dr Alun Williams.

Please stop conflating intersex athletes with transgender athletes, thank you.

interactive

Mr/He/Him/Bloke

I for one cannot wait for the Olympics, i want to see women with "adams apples & hairy shoulders" destroy the competition in all events.
There is a a photo doing the rounds of a trans woman on the podium winning a gold medal for weight lifting, "she" is looking at the flag as the nation anthem is playing, you can see her "lunch box" bulging from her lycra shorts as the silver & bronze medalists look dismayed.
Imagine the outrage if "our" Katie Taylor, got pummelled by a Trans athlete?
Every Irish man i know is proud of Katie , she is held in even higher esteem by every Irish women i know, she is a national hero, now imagine her been battered by a trans boxer?