Biological males in women's sport

kildare lad

One eyed Jack wrote: »

And we all know of course science is static and never changes on the basis of new evidence which contradicts what was previously thought to be in incontrovertible fact.

What new evidence though ? If your born with a penis you're a man and if you've born with a vagina you're a woman . It's hardly groundbreaking science .

suicide_circus

kildare lad wrote: »

l If your born with a penis you're a man and if you've born with a vagina you're a woman . It's hardly groundbreaking science .

it is however hate speech which could see you lose your job

ingalway

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Bear in mind also that as well it being extremely obvious at puberty that something was amis, Semenya herself has known about this for the past 10 years at least and apparently identifies as a male outside of the sporting world. You'd have to wonder how much this was covered up in order to allow semenya to continue to win medals. But coaches would never do that would they?

I've seen today that Semenya has joined a womens soccer team now. Where she won't have to reduce testosterone.

Very good article on Caster and XY in general:
https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

ceadaoin.

Plans to further reduce testosterone limits for trans athletes in the 2020 olympics have been put on hold because it's too "politically sensitive ". So they acknowledge that males do have an advantage, even after hormone treatment but still they expect women to "compromise " on fairness in order to be inclusive. Great

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2019/sep/24/ioc-delays-new-transgender-guidelines-2020-olympics

Plans by the International Olympic Committee to introduce stricter guidelines for transgender athletes before the Tokyo 2020 Games have run into the sand because its panel of scientists is struggling to reach agreement on such a thorny issue.

The scientists had been expected to recommend halving the permitted testosterone levels for trans women competing in elite sport. However, several sources have confirmed to the Guardian that the IOC’s draft guidelines have been parked, for now, because the whole subject is so politically charged and sensitive.

Under the current IOC guidelines, issued in November 2015, athletes who transition from male to female can compete in the women’s category without requiring surgery to remove their testes provided their total testosterone level in serum is kept below 10 nanomoles per litre for at least 12 months.

Those guidelines, used by most sports federations to draw up their transgender policies, have proved controversial, given that women’s testosterone levels tend to range between 0.12 and 1.79 nmol/l, while men’s are typically between 7.7 to 29.4 nmol/l.

The Guardian understands some scientists on the IOC panel have argued that reducing the permitted testosterone levels to 5nmol/L – below most males – would provide a reasonable compromise between inclusion and fairness, ensuring that trans women could still compete in the women’s category while taking away most of the advantages of undergoing male puberty.

However, others disagree, pointing to the emerging findings from the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, which show that testosterone suppression for transgender women has little effect on reducing muscle strength even after a year of treatment. That indicates that at least some of the physical advantages of those who have gone through male puberty are maintained even after transitioning.

The Guardian understands there will be meetings between now and Tokyo with the intention of getting individual sporting federations to create their own policies on transgender athletes. However, many governing bodies are reluctant to do anything without the IOC taking the lead in such a controversial area.

cloudatlas

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Plans to further reduce testosterone limits for trans athletes in the 2020 olympics have been put on hold because it's too "politically sensitive ". So they acknowledge that males do have an advantage, even after hormone treatment but still they expect women to "compromise " on fairness in order to be inclusive. Great

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2019/sep/24/ioc-delays-new-transgender-guidelines-2020-olympics

We need the research to catch up and there are a good deal of studies progressing at the moment, until then there is no point in one side shouting at the other in a "healthy debate", we simply have to wait for the results.

Paddy Cow

cloudatlas wrote: »

We need the research to catch up and there are a good deal of studies progressing at the moment, until then there is no point in one side shouting at the other in a "healthy debate", we simply have to wait for the results.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say the research will conclude that biological males have an advantage over biological females.

cloudatlas

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I'm going to take a wild guess and say the research will conclude that biological males have an advantage over biological females.

Yeah we need more scientific information than a 'daily mail' headline. Not a science nerd myself but committees will have to know at which part of the developmental period would a transition be deemed too late for any of those benefits to be negligible.

Calhoun

Good to see the acknowledgement and i hope they bring in rules soon as possible so things turn back to a degree of fairness for the poor female athletes.

Must suck training all your life and having to stand on a podium pretend your happy when you know the other person had a biological advantage.

ILoveYourVibes

cloudatlas wrote: »

We need the research to catch up and there are a good deal of studies progressing at the moment, until then there is no point in one side shouting at the other in a "healthy debate", we simply have to wait for the results.

We don't need to do research.


Transwomen have an unfair advantage and they can't compete fairly with cis women.

Unfortunately some are using this as part of the wider debate or movement against trans people.

The fact that SOME trans women are using their situation to cheat has no bearing on the wider transgender debate.

Its totally unfair to allow a transwomen and a cis sexed woman to compete against each other.

Transwomen have larger lungs larger hearts larger bones etc.

Somethings hormones cannot change. They will always have a greater VO2 max potential etc.

Using your situation to cheat and get sholarships a career etc just probably means you are not a very nice individual.

Zorya

I hate the word cis. It suggests that the very nature of woman, or man, can be subdivided into categories. One can use descriptors like tall, thin, black, old, that is different, but cis subverts reason by suggesting there is a category of woman, or man, that is cis and a category that is trans. There is not. Woman is an adult human female. Man is an adult human male. End of.

iguana

Zorya wrote: »

I hate the word cis. It suggests that the very nature of woman, or man, can be subdivided into categories. One can use descriptors like tall, thin, black, old, that is different, but cis subverts reason by suggesting there is a category of woman, or man, that is cis and a category that is trans. There is not. Woman is an adult human female. Man is an adult human male. End of.

What about straight/heterosexual? Isn't that similar to cis?

Zorya

iguana wrote: »

Zorya wrote: »

I hate the word cis. It suggests that the very nature of woman, or man, can be subdivided into categories. One can use descriptors like tall, thin, black, old, that is different, but cis subverts reason by suggesting there is a category of woman, or man, that is cis and a category that is trans. There is not. Woman is an adult human female. Man is an adult human male. End of.

What about straight/heterosexual? Isn't that similar to cis?

Not at all. Straight or gay is merely a description, it is not a new category within the noun male or female. Women are not cis women, they are just women. And the other category in the sex types is men. Same with boy girl, male female.

cloudatlas

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

We don't need to do research.


Transwomen have an unfair advantage and they can't compete fairly with cis women.

Unfortunately some are using this as part of the wider debate or movement against trans people.

The fact that SOME trans women are using their situation to cheat has no bearing on the wider transgender debate.

Its totally unfair to allow a transwomen and a cis sexed woman to compete against each other.

Transwomen have larger lungs larger hearts larger bones etc.

Somethings hormones cannot change. They will always have a greater VO2 max potential etc.

Using your situation to cheat and get sholarships a career etc just probably means you are not a very nice individual.

Of course we need scientific data in order to draw conclusions and back up arguments. If a trans person transitions in their late teens perhaps they can be allowed to compete verses somebody who has reaped all the benefits of developing as a male for decades. We need to know these things otherwise we will come across as crazy like Graham Linehan.

BattleCorp

cloudatlas wrote: »

Yeah we need more scientific information than a 'daily mail' headline. Not a science nerd myself but committees will have to know at which part of the developmental period would a transition be deemed too late for any of those benefits to be negligible.

You need scientific research to determine if a biological male has a physical advantage over a biological female when it comes to sport???

cloudatlas

BattleCorp wrote: »

You need scientific research to determine if a biological male has a physical advantage over a biological female when it comes to sport???

Yes we do because the committees are saying that testosterone at certain levels is enough hence why data is needed because at the moment there isn't any. What's your problem?

BattleCorp

cloudatlas wrote: »

Yes we do because the committees are saying that testosterone at certain levels is enough hence why data is needed because at the moment there isn't any. What's your problem?

My problem is that biological males who identify as female shouldn't be competing against biological females. Biological males have an unfair advantage.

cloudatlas

BattleCorp wrote: »

My problem is that biological males who identify as female shouldn't be competing against biological females. Biological males have an unfair advantage.

Yes, saying that there is no potential performance benefit for a woman who was born, grew up, and spent all their development period as a biological male, is a bit of a stretch I think.

However, some clear data on actually trans athletes would help sort some of this out.

BattleCorp

cloudatlas wrote: »

Yes, saying that there is no potential performance benefit for a woman who was born, grew up, and spent all their development period as a biological male, is a bit of a stretch I think.

However, some clear data on actually trans athletes would help sort some of this out.

It would be good to get that data but getting that data creates problems.

To get that data we have to allow biological males compete against biological females which is inherently unfair.

cloudatlas

BattleCorp wrote: »

It would be good to get that data but getting that data creates problems.

To get that data we have to allow biological males compete against biological females which is inherently unfair.

Scientific data is required otherwise it simply is discrimination not to allow someone to compete where there is no basis to disallow them.

BattleCorp

cloudatlas wrote: »

Scientific data is required otherwise it simply is discrimination not to allow someone to compete where there is no basis to disallow them.

There is a basis to disallow them. The basis is that it's biological men against women.

Look, I'm not trying to discriminate against trans women. If a trans women wants to live their life as a trans woman, then fine. I've no problem with most aspects of that. But lets not pretend that there aren't differences between trans women and women.

Biological men have consistently done better in sport than biological women. Just take a look at the world records. Not many women beating the mens scores/times/heights/lengths etc.

I know this goes against the current liberal wave of thinking but I've yet to be convinced that a biological male who identifies as female is physically any different from a biological male who identifies as male.

Calhoun

BattleCorp wrote: »

There is a basis to disallow them. The basis is that it's biological men against women.

Look, I'm not trying to discriminate against trans women. If a trans women wants to live their life as a trans woman, then fine. I've no problem with most aspects of that. But lets not pretend that there aren't differences between trans women and women.

Biological men have consistently done better in sport than biological women. Just take a look at the world records. Not many women beating the mens scores/times/heights/lengths etc.

I know this goes against the current liberal wave of thinking but I've yet to be convinced that a biological male who identifies as female is physically any different from a biological male who identifies as male.

You wonder if the answer comes back and the testosterone levels are reduced and it excludes allot of the participants if they will be happy.

More than likely not so I would say there will be a push to get the answer they want.

BattleCorp

Calhoun wrote: »

You wonder if the answer comes back and the testosterone levels are reduced and it excludes allot of the participants if they will be happy.

More than likely not so I would say there will be a push to get the answer they want.

Even if you lower the testosterone level, it doesn't take away the permanent advantages of having gone through a male puberty. I can't see any way to fairly square this circle.

cloudatlas

BattleCorp wrote: »

There is a basis to disallow them. The basis is that it's biological men against women.

Look, I'm not trying to discriminate against trans women. If a trans women wants to live their life as a trans woman, then fine. I've no problem with most aspects of that. But lets not pretend that there aren't differences between trans women and women.

Biological men have consistently done better in sport than biological women. Just take a look at the world records. Not many women beating the mens scores/times/heights/lengths etc.

I know this goes against the current liberal wave of thinking but I've yet to be convinced that a biological male who identifies as female is physically any different from a biological male who identifies as male.

I agree but there needs to be scientific evidence to back it because this issue is so divisive. This thread is a prime example we had someone on here saying that Semenya shouldn't be able to compete because they are trans which she isn't she's intersex and was born that way, there is a lot of misinformation out there so we need to make sure that everything is clear. I'm not disagreeing with you so not sure why you are arguing with me and getting likes for it.

ceadaoin.

cloudatlas wrote: »

I agree but there needs to be scientific evidence to back it because this issue is so divisive. This thread is a prime example we had someone on here saying that Semenya shouldn't be able to compete because they are trans which she isn't she's intersex and was born that way, there is a lot of misinformation out there so we need to make sure that everything is clear. I'm not disagreeing with you so not sure why you are arguing with me and getting likes for it.

Not one person has said that semenya is trans? However, semenya is a biological male person who has reaped the benefits of a male puberty and who is not insensitive to the testosterone produced by her body. It's unfair for her biologically female competitors who would be banned for supplementing with testosterone. She can compete, if she lowers her testosterone levels. She doesn't want to lose her advantage which is fair enough, but sports is about fairness for millions of women and girls, not just caster semenya.

Anyway, here is the study mentioned in the guardian article, which unsurprisingly suggests that trans women retain strength even after hormone treatment.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/09/26/782557.full.pdf

Also, here is the latest installment of this madness - times article about referees who raise concerns about women being injured by males in rugby matches being driven out of the sport


(Copied and pasted because its behind a paywall)

Rugby referees are quitting the women’s amateur game because they fear rules allowing transgender women to play will lead to serious injuries.

Referees say they have been warned not to challenge bearded or heavily muscled players appearing for women’s teams.

Under the England Rugby rules, transgender women must take a blood test to show that their testosterone has been below a set level (five nanomoles per litre) for 12 months before applying to play. That is half the level set by the International Olympic Committee. But referees say they have to take it on trust rather than check whether a player has been cleared by the Rugby Football Union (RFU).

One, who did not want to be identified, said: “Being forced to prioritise hurt feelings over broken bones exposes me to personal litigation from female players who have been damaged by players who are biologically male. This is driving female players and referees out of the game.”

Another referee, who said they had encountered five bearded players in women’s teams in half a season, said: “If you even ask the question, you are told you are a bigot.”

Last month Kelly Morgan, a trans woman, said she wanted to play in the Welsh women’s leagues despite her physical advantage. “I do feel guilt but what can you do?” she said. Her club captain said she had folded an opponent “like a deckchair”.

Under the laws of the game, a referee is “the sole judge of fact and of law during the match” and is required to remove a player who presents a danger to themselves or others.

The Olympic swimmer Sharron Davies, who is urging Olympic chiefs not to use women’s sport as a “live experiment” for the inclusion of transgender athletes, said rugby appeared to be operating a double standard.

She said: “My daughter Grace was told at the age of 11 she could no longer play with the boys because it was no longer safe. How can they have that rule in place and . . . say it is perfectly OK for a transgender woman who is a biological man to play with the girls, but girls who are girls are not allowed to play with the boys because it is dangerous?”

cloudatlas

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Not one person has said that semenya is trans? However, semenya is a biological male person who has reaped the benefits of a male puberty and who is not insensitive to the testosterone produced by her body. It's unfair for her biologically female competitors who would be banned for supplementing with testosterone. She can compete, if she lowers her testosterone levels. She doesn't want to lose her advantage which is fair enough, but sports is about fairness for millions of women and girls, not just caster semenya.

Anyway, here is the study mentioned in the guardian article, which unsurprisingly suggests that trans women retain strength even after hormone treatment.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/09/26/782557.full.pdf

Also, here is the latest installment of this madness - times article about referees who raise concerns about women being injured by males in rugby matches being driven out of the sport


(Copied and pasted because its behind a paywall)

I'll just post this again https://sigmanutrition.com/episode283/

Wrong. 'Critical points: There are some XY females and XX males. XY obviously usually is in males, but XY does not necessarily equal male. See WHO https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html
And XY chromosome testing in sport has a disastrous history https://www.nature.com/articles/gim2000258.pdf

The very same complex genetic reasons why some female athletes are in the DSD in the first place means they probably don’t have the ‘full advantage’ of the Y chromosome in relation to sport performance that men have.
‏
Biological sex (not gender identity) is determined by an array of genetic and other factors, of which X&Y chromosomes are important parts, but not the only ones, not even the only genetic ones. It’s complex. So biology can’t define exactly where 'female' ends and 'male' begins...

.. nor (if included) the female/DSD & DSD/male boundaries.

Biology provides a strong framework to define sex, but people (preferably well-informed) still have to decide the precise boundaries.

I think the IAAF have got the boundary wrong.' Dr Alun Williams.

Please stop conflating intersex athletes with transgender athletes, thank you. I don't know why you are sending me a study about transgender atheletes as Semenya isn't trans she's intersex these are two different things. What you seem to want is a testosterone olympics where everyone runs in a testosterone category, there have been other athletes with high naturally occurring testosterone.

Another athlete with DSD has spoken out https://www.telegraph.co.uk/athletics/2019/09/27/female-athletes-claim-careers-ruined-coerced-surgery-curb-testosterone/

ceadaoin.

Male cyclist rachel mckinnon sets womens world record and says that anyone who objects are "losers". Judging by this photo they arent in the best shape either, not sure they'd have a chance against fellow male cyclists. The female competitors must be absolutely raging about it

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/transgender-cyclist-wins-female-cycling-world-championship-claims-only-objections-come-from-losers/

astrofool

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Male cyclist rachel mckinnon sets womens world record and says that anyone who objects are "losers". Judging by this photo they arent in the best shape either, not sure they'd have a chance against fellow male cyclists. The female competitors must be absolutely raging about it

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/transgender-cyclist-wins-female-cycling-world-championship-claims-only-objections-come-from-losers/

To be fair, what else would Rachel McKinnon say? We've already seen the depths that an athlete will drop to in order to protect their achievements, a la Lance Armstrong, and the army of other drug cheats that have been caught. The language being used is very similar, and designed to deflect and provoke outrage on some "bigger" issue, e.g. human rights. (not condoning a born male setting a record in a female event in any way).

silverharp

maybe just abolish gender division in sport, just let everyone find their level, people would still pay to see the best female athletes like Serena Williams etc.

ahnowbrowncow

silverharp wrote: »

maybe just abolish gender division in sport, just let everyone find their level, people would still pay to see the best female athletes like Serena Williams etc.

She wouldn't be good enough to make it into the competitions and if she was given a wildcard entry, she'd be knocked out in the first round.

Dante7

silverharp wrote: »

maybe just abolish gender division in sport, just let everyone find their level, people would still pay to see the best female athletes like Serena Williams etc.

You have to admire this level of woke stupidity! What you are arguing for here is the complete removal of sex segregation in sport. It is very difficult to know where to start when trying to address this level of ****wittery, but I'll try.

Why do you think sports are separated by sex?